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Part 9 Bedoin workshop

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Re: Part VI - Ian Dury & the Blockheads - alive!

Postby Mike G » 12 May 2021, 11:54

The problem with insulating externally is the junction between the various elements. You want the render and the plinth to be pretty much in the same (vertical) plane. If that can work, though, it suggests your outer skin will be cosmetic, and it will be the inner skin taking the load from the roof.
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Re: Part VI - Ian Dury & the Blockheads - alive!

Postby AJB Temple » 12 May 2021, 13:17

Absolutely Mike. The roof load is borne by the oak framed structure which is on the inside of the building, mounted on the concrete walls, and will be fully on show. If I decide to add visible oak and brick skin on the outside (the slab accommodates this), this will be by halving some beams lengthwise and giving the impression of an external oak structure, but without this having any structural relevance.

Because this is a glorified corridor between two existing buildings, quite a lot of it is "indoors" anyway. I don't want to do anything that affects regs, but the LA don't care about the cosmetic aspects at all. They got quite worked up initially about sewerage, until at the inspection visit they finally realised (what I had said in writing) that this is connected to a private treatment plant owned by me and that complies with regs.

Interestingly they (possibly a different arm of the rather mixed up local government around here) lost a very odd argument with another property nearby (they are listed whereas we are not) which has changed its external colour from black (which the council like) to off white which they say is not appropriate for the area. This was shown to be total nonsense as a number of houses and outbuildings locally are variously white, bare wood, light green, black, tile hung and brick - each from roughly the same era. In nearby villages probably a majority of houses with boarded walls are painted white in fact. The other relevant factor was old photos clearly showing the building as white.
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Re: Part VI - Ian Dury & the Blockheads - alive!

Postby Mike G » 12 May 2021, 13:27

Listed buildings can be quite a complex subject. Sometimes, it isn't about the historic authenticity of the proposed change, so much as the state of play at the time of the listing. So, for instance, if it was white throughout the 19th century, but black at the point of listing, then you need a good reason to change it from black. The changes in a building through its lifetime are as interesting as the building in its original condition. I've had a number of projects where clients wanted to return a building to its original configuration but the proposals were strongly resisted by Listed Buildings because of the potential loss of the historic changes and accretions.
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Re: Part VI - Ian Dury & the Blockheads - alive!

Postby PAC1 » 12 May 2021, 15:13

Mike G wrote:Listed buildings can be quite a complex subject. Sometimes, it isn't about the historic authenticity of the proposed change, so much as the state of play at the time of the listing. So, for instance, if it was white throughout the 19th century, but black at the point of listing, then you need a good reason to change it from black. The changes in a building through its lifetime are as interesting as the building in its original condition. I've had a number of projects where clients wanted to return a building to its original configuration but the proposals were strongly resisted by Listed Buildings because of the potential loss of the historic changes and accretions.

Quite. When I bought my Grade II listed 17C black and white timber frame house some vandal had installed 1960s crittall aluminium louvre windows throughout. In my naivety I thought the planning officer would fall at my feet when I asked to change the windows to something more appropriate. Nope 18 months later and we are still arguing about what someone walking past on the footpath 70m away might think of the profile of window I proposed whilst never acknowledging that the vandal had committed a crime and I was doing the right thing. We did get there in the end. I now know to go and talk the the conservation officer before doing anything or even thinking of doing anything
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Re: Part 7 Oak build hiatus, and Part 8 we get going

Postby AJB Temple » 02 Jun 2021, 09:15

Well, not much happened on the building during the rainy spell, hence this thread slipped three pages back.

I whiled away some of my free time making 150 of these. Cladding strips for a different bit.

IMG_1735.JPG
Cladding strips in oak
(600.3 KiB)


Making them also required sorting out the PT which decided to play up. They were originally cut by me as rough sawn roofing laths.
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Re: Part 7 Oak build hiatus, and Part 8 we get going

Postby AJB Temple » 02 Jun 2021, 09:33

Evidently I still have the photo rotation problem.

Next job was to set up an outside workshop close to the wood. It all needs planing and is heavy stuff. The bench is just an old kitchen worktop on three heavy duty adjustable trestles.

The planer picture is a bit deceiving. The main tool is the big Triton, which was cheap and has a wide blade of 180mm. Even though the sole is magnesium, its quite heavy to walk up and down with all day. It is essential to work up against a wall or rig a tarpaulin, as it produces lots of chippings very fast. Ear protection is a must as well, as it is not quiet.

IMG_1738.JPG
Outdoor rig
(495.39 KiB)


IMG_1742.JPG
Main clean up tools
(489.38 KiB)


The smaller plane in the foreground is a 3" I think. I only use it for roughish work like this as has no dust collection, just side ejector ports. It's good for running across uneven bits that the long sole of the larger plane will skitter over.

The other tool is the invaluable 4" Makita belt sander, running 40 grit.

My system is: brush off the wood, quick run over across the grain with belt sander. This is just to clean enough so that I can see if there are any embedded foreign objects that will damage the planer blades. There shouldn't be as this wood has been in my hands for ages, but for the 30 seconds or so it takes to sweep the sand down a beam, its worth it.

Then the big planer does the work: typically 4 to 6 passes per face. I set the planer quite shallow at 0.75mm as I find that taking too much off in one go makes a mess and bogs the tool down in this very hard oak. It's not remotely green as it was nearly all felled in 1987 and sawn in about 1989. So its been sitting around for 30 odd years.
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Re: Part 7 Oak build hiatus, and Part 8 we get going

Postby AJB Temple » 02 Jun 2021, 09:35

OK, I will stop here and get on with some work. Pointless carrying on until I can have a look at photo rotation again. (They have all been rotated already and should post fine, but they never do).
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Re: Part 7 Oak build hiatus, and Part 8 we get going

Postby NickM » 02 Jun 2021, 10:20

AJB Temple wrote:OK, I will stop here and get on with some work. Pointless carrying on until I can have a look at photo rotation again. (They have all been rotated already and should post fine, but they never do).


Adrian, are you working from a Mac?

If so, my method of posting photos is as follows:

1. Get the photos in the correct orientation in the photos app.
2. Select all of the photos you want to use and "export" them (File menu, export). If I've got a few photos, I export them to a new folder on the desktop. You can also select a size when you export them (large seems to work for me).
3. I then just upload them by using the upload picture tab on the forum and navigating to the place I exported the photos to.

They seem to come out the right way up!
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Re: Part 7 Oak build hiatus, and Part 8 we get going

Postby AJB Temple » 02 Jun 2021, 11:47

Thanks Nick. Mark and I have got the T shirt on this as we have tried that method and it plays up on my Mac in that in sometimes works but usually does not. I can fix it but I have to put the photos into DXO and re-set them. It is to do with my iPhone I think. I will try to sort it when I have time. Apologies to anyone trying to read the thread. Adrian
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Re: Part 7 Oak build hiatus, and Part 8 we get going

Postby AndyT » 02 Jun 2021, 11:52

AJB Temple wrote:Well, not much happened on the building during the rainy spell, hence this thread slipped three pages back.

I whiled away some of my free time making 150 of these. Cladding strips for a different bit.

IMG_1735.JPG
(332.2 KiB)


Making them also required sorting out the PT which decided to play up. They were originally cut by me as rough sawn roofing laths.
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Re: Part 7 Oak build hiatus, and Part 8 we get going

Postby AndyT » 02 Jun 2021, 11:54

AJB Temple wrote:Evidently I still have the photo rotation problem.

Next job was to set up an outside workshop close to the wood. It all needs planing and is heavy stuff. The bench is just an old kitchen worktop on three heavy duty adjustable trestles.

The planer picture is a bit deceiving. The main tool is the big Triton, which was cheap and has a wide blade of 180mm. Even though the sole is magnesium, its quite heavy to walk up and down with all day. It is essential to work up against a wall or rig a tarpaulin, as it produces lots of chippings very fast. Ear protection is a must as well, as it is not quiet.

IMG_1738.JPG
(1.7 MiB)


IMG_1742.JPG
(294.7 KiB)


The smaller plane in the foreground is a 3" I think. I only use it for roughish work like this as has no dust collection, just side ejector ports. It's good for running across uneven bits that the long sole of the larger plane will skitter over.

The other tool is the invaluable 4" Makita belt sander, running 40 grit.

My system is: brush off the wood, quick run over across the grain with belt sander. This is just to clean enough so that I can see if there are any embedded foreign objects that will damage the planer blades. There shouldn't be as this wood has been in my hands for ages, but for the 30 seconds or so it takes to sweep the sand down a beam, its worth it.

Then the big planer does the work: typically 4 to 6 passes per face. I set the planer quite shallow at 0.75mm as I find that taking too much off in one go makes a mess and bogs the tool down in this very hard oak. It's not remotely green as it was nearly all felled in 1987 and sawn in about 1989. So its been sitting around for 30 odd years.


I can't pop round and shift all that heavy timber, but I can sometimes manage to rotate pixels and had a minute to spare. :)
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Re: Part 7 Oak build hiatus, and Part 8 we get going

Postby AJB Temple » 02 Jun 2021, 12:06

Thanks very much Andy.

Yesterday I turned my workshop into a Bedouin tent - I will post later. But I know for sure that my tripod crane has grown a lot heavier since last time I used it a couple of years ago. I need to build some muscle. :oops:
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Part 8 couple of thoughts on planers and sanders

Postby AJB Temple » 02 Jun 2021, 19:19

I posted about this big Triton 180mm planer before when I frequented elsewhere and gave it a positive review and "buy" recommendation for people planning on doing timber framing. Some bloke immediately posted that a mate of his had one, it was snapped at the blade point, and he definitely had not dropped it. Lots of people PM’d me asking if Triton was rubbish. That was the only incident I’ve heard of and mine has been used a lot and is fine. In fact, through accident of circumstance, I have two. OK, I would love the Mafell version of this tool. It is superb. But the Triton is £300 now (was just over £200 when I bought mine) and the Mafell is close to £4,000.

However, there are rules of use in my opinion that appear in no instruction book. First of all it depends what you are dealing with. With green oak, i.e. wet, the planer will go through like butter. This oak has been air seasoning for 34 years and it is rock hard.

The big planer on its own is useless on this stuff, as wherever there are splits or knots there will be a very hard raised section and the blade just skates over. Therefore, the small Triton or whatever you have is essential, as this is short enough to deal with high spots. So I tend to knock them off first very quickly with the small one set at 1mm. This is a rough tool and cuts grooves each side, but that is not a problem.

Secondly, these tools claim they can cut to 4mm depth. This is nonsense. On mature oak this will overstress the tool beyond belief and unless you are Arnie you will not be able to push it down enough. In my opinion the plane breakers probably abuse the tools. My maximum is 1.25mm. Once the small one has cleaned up the face I do three or four passes with the big one. This gets rid of all grooves. On a narrower board (less than 180mm obvs) I would only do two passes as there is no need for an overlap.

Thirdly, you can’t treat a big planer like you do a small handheld one such as the (very good) Festool. You MUST push the front down and keep an even speed. If you catch the cable on the end of the beam or whatever, and it stops you, a burn mark will be your gift and in a second or two. This is why I keep the cable reel elevated (and why my workshop sockets are at head height).

Also, in my opinion it is a good idea to have a tool rotation plan on each face, so that nothing gets too hot. The magnesium casing on the big one can get very hot. It’s also heavy, so make sure you’ve had your Weetabix.

There is a cutter protection stop that drops down from the sole, but do NOT rely on this. You are chucking out oodles of sawdust and it can clog. So either have a gap between benches where the blade goes when you are resting the tool, or a piece of wood to elevate it. It takes me about an hour to change the blades…..

When you use the snall planer you can do a foot or two at a time, but with the big one you MUST cut the full length, so there is quite a bit of walking back and forth on big beams. It does not like being dropped into a cut half way along a beam – it will either not cut at all (skating) or head for Australia (worse – no one likes Fosters).

Next step is a quick run over with the Makita 4” sander using 40 grit. In my opinion this tool is absolutely indispensable for timber framers and the only reasonably affordable big sander currently available that is worth bothering with. (I have an Elu too but you can’t get them now). It is a beast and you can press really hard on it if necessary and it will not stop.

I used to prep all of my green oak with just the sanders, but the planers reduce the prep time to about a quarter.

Belts

Friend of mine got through a packet of belts in about half an hour. He was amazed to learn when we discussed this that there is an arrow on the machine (behind the back roller) and one inside the belt and they must point the same way. Or the belt will part company with itself in no time.

The world of internet wood forums occasionally has some expert telling you that a worn belt can be used to sand at a finer grit level. (So 40 becomes 80 or something). This is TOSH. There will always be sticky out bits of grit digging into your work.

Attached is a picture of a belt I took off today that IMO is worn out.
IMG_1763.jpeg
Worn out sander belt!
(371.56 KiB)

It looks OK to most people, it feels rough, but it is not cutting without putting excessive pressure on the machine. A new belt will cut two or three times as fast with half the effort. Invest in having enough belts for a big job.
All belts are not alike. Some of the cheapo stuff people buy from Amazon is rubbish. I use either Mirka or the brand in the photo. They last well, they do not embed grit in the wood (cheap belts often do – drives me crazy) and they do not break unless you have failed to align them. Always align the belt before starting work, as if there is any runoff it will do it really fast under load and fray the belt edge.

The sander bag on these Makita tools is really good. Outdoors, producing this much chippings and stuff, I don’t use the vac, but I do in the shop.
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Re: Part 9 Bedoin workshop

Postby AJB Temple » 02 Jun 2021, 21:04

Obviously being English I moan when it is wet and windy and then when summer arrives it is much too hot and I complain about sunburn and being too hot.

So I decided to go camping. This wasted the best part of Tuesday (including for my helper) as my fixings were a bit useless and I had to get the tripod crane out to hold the far corner. But it keeps the sun off. The crane is a lot heavier than last time I used it.

IMG_1752.jpeg
Bedoin camp in Kent
(529.86 KiB)


It is surprisingly difficult to get a 8m by 5m tarpaulin to stay in place as either the fastenings rip or the eyelets do. I do have an old sail or two but I can't find them.
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Re: Part 9 Bedoin workshop

Postby Mike G » 02 Jun 2021, 21:24

Great write up on the beam plane, Adrian. I really should have invested in one years ago. Otherwise, your technique is much the same as mine. It's really counterintuative to do most of your sanding across the grain, and if your timber is being left exposed to the weather then you really can stop at that point without doing any sanding along the grain. Forty grit cross-grain sanding as a final finish isn't something most people would even contemplate normally.

The big question in post and beam preparation, though, is do you flatten a face (as you would a board in the workshop), or do you just clean it up and work around the variations this induces. The answer to that is personal preference. Mine, these days, is to true up plates, but not posts. This means that the scarfs, bridles or laps in the plate are easier to cut, and the shoulders of the tenons on the posts are also easier. With posts there is generally very little benefit in them being straight and true and square, and the variation is part of the charm.
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Re: Part 9 Bedoin workshop

Postby AJB Temple » 02 Jun 2021, 22:00

Thanks. Agree with that Mike re squaring up etc. This is not fine joinery and I just aim to clean up the wood and get the milling blemishes off. Luckily these posts are all pretty straight and square.

Currently planning the joints. Eight of 10 posts are prepped now ready for setting out and I need to choose what goes where. Some have blemishes, but in 8" posts this is of not much consequence. Having a rethink on knee braces as I made 10 so far but the building is largely sandwiched between two others and the only real wind pressure is from the south.

Just contemplating plain wedged dovetails or housed wedge dovetails for the 4" roof joists. Think I will do a full timber layout on the ground.
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Re: Part 9 Bedoin workshop

Postby Mike G » 02 Jun 2021, 22:06

Won't the roof timbers just sit on the plates?
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Re: Part 8 couple of thoughts on planers and sanders

Postby Doug » 03 Jun 2021, 07:06

AJB Temple wrote:I posted about this big Triton 180mm planer before when I frequented elsewhere and gave it a positive review and "buy" recommendation for people planning on doing timber framing. Some bloke immediately posted that a mate of his had one, it was snapped at the blade point, and he definitely had not dropped it


Yep that was me & that’s what happened.
You’ve just listed your recommendations for using the tool as you say that aren’t in the instructions which are basically not to use the tool to its maximum design specifications, so it’s hardly surprising that the tool broke if it was being used to those maximum specifications.

Clearly your recommendations could be said to be common sense on such a cheap tool used on what can be quite a hefty task, but sense these days isn’t that common so surely the manufacturer should give this sort of guidance in their instructions?
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Re: Part 9 Bedoin workshop

Postby AJB Temple » 03 Jun 2021, 07:32

I agree Doug actually - manufacturers make daft claims at times to sell tools. I see that the current machines now have an advertised cutting depth at a maximum of 2mm. I might be wrong (I am still in bed as I type this) but I think mine went up to 4mm. Very old oak is of course much tougher to work with than green oak or Douglas fir.

Realistically though, these tools are £300 and were less when I bought them. In fact the small one is still only about £120 though they are both sold out at Yandles. Anyone doing timber framing work to any significant degree is likely to be aware of the heavy duty tools from the US and of course the Mafell gear from Germany. But there is an enormous price difference. I think with sensible use these tools are plenty robust enough. If I was doing this for a living, I would buy the Mafell.

The reason for my post is to show what can be done on a tight budget using tools that are accessible to a hobby woodworker / builder like myself doing personal projects on my own. I can only post about my experience with the tools that I actually use a lot and that have stood the test of time.

Kind regards, Adrian
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Re: Part 9 Bedoin workshop

Postby AJB Temple » 03 Jun 2021, 07:45

Mike G wrote:Won't the roof timbers just sit on the plates?


Well.....

Yes, that was the original plan and probably what we chatted about when you visited. It's obviously much quicker and a great deal easier. However, I have moved to having the whole timber frame on display internally in the room. According to Chapell the traditional way of doing floor joists (this is a flat roof so effectively a floor as well) is to use wedged dovetails to stop the plates pulling apart and stop the joists pulling out. Stopped housings hide any shrinkage but are even more work to do.

I will get very little shrinkage or movement, because this oak is not green at all, but I think I do want the aesthetic of letting the ceiling / floor joists into the main plate beams. These will be spaced carefully to allow sheets to be laid on with no visible gaps from below. Then I will have a flat surface, on which will go plasterboard, thin ply & vapour membrane, 150mm of PIR (upped the spec and it was delivered yesterday) then thin ply and finally epdm. Ply was cheaper than OSB in the end. I took up your idea of thin top sheet to allow the screw heads to depress flush.

Still thinking over the construction finer details and will take time today to rethink my timber and joint layouts. My other thought is possibly a planked ceiling.
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Re: Part 9 Bedoin workshop

Postby AJB Temple » 03 Jun 2021, 14:04

Just musing aloud so feel free to ignore.

Having second thoughts about joist to beam junctions having spent all morning drawing and measuring. This is essentially a simple post and beam or post and lintel structure, with tie beams going across between two existing buildings but supported on substantial posts.

There are eight, 8" principal posts and 6 secondary ones of 6" (plus 2 that have no real structural value). All of the beams are 6" (slightly over) and there is only one big span of 12 feet (3.7 metres) so this one has the biggest deflection risk (but not a green oak deflection risk). All the other beam spans are smaller, with a few at 8 feet (2.5m) and all but one of those could have a secondary post support if necessary. The 12ft one can't have another post.

Notching dovetails even at 5/8 depth for 4" joists into a 6" main beam, is worrying me a bit even if I make them quite short at say 2". I could use soffit / tusk tenons but they make assembly so tricky, unless I dovetail one end. They won't be able to move if they are set as opposites whereas dovetails I can offset I suppose to avoid taking too much timber out on the opposite sides of a beam.

Deflection is directly proportional to the cube of the length of span for beams of the same width and depth. So a 12 foot beam will deflect 3.375 times as much as a similar cross section 8 foot beam. An 8ft foot beam in 6" by 6" fully seasoned English oak, assuming no incursions or structural knots (a knot is the same as a hole structurally) will deflect slightly less than 1/16" at 40 psi floor load, whereas a 12ft beam of the same section will deflect maybe as much as three eights of an inch. But this is without chopping dovetails in. Loading is only trivially increased by laying joists over rather than setting in, but beam strength is not compromised.

One answer is to set this long principal beam 4" lower than the rest. Hmmm. Potentially makes the interior design more interesting. (I don't want to fork out for more wood or do another trip to Warwickshire to pick up another one).

This is important because I want a high ceiling but I also need access from a room above, so my heights are fairly tight.

IMG_1766.JPG
Fabulous technical drawing :-)
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