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Dewalt/B&D radial arm saw advice

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Dewalt/B&D radial arm saw advice

Postby Guineafowl21 » 09 Apr 2021, 12:21

Can anyone give me some info on this machine? I can’t find a model number to research it. It’s on for £275.

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Re: Dewalt/B&D radial arm saw advice

Postby Trevanion » 09 Apr 2021, 12:37

Guineafowl21 wrote:Can anyone give me some info on this machine? I can’t find a model number to research it. It’s on for £275.


The DeWalt/Black & Decker Powershop Radial Arm Saw, ubiquitous little thing they are!

They've been made for a good length of time now, DeWalt started off by making Radial Arm Saws back in the 1920s (although it's disputed that they invented the radial arm saw, some will credit that to Wadkin) and they were seriously heavy-duty pieces of equipment akin to the Wadkin BRA saws, original ones are fairly rare here but quite common in America.

Here's a good video:


What the saw you're looking at is one from about the late 60s I would say, probably the R1250 model. They can be a bit of a pig to get set right and keep set nicely but they are quite a versatile machine in the right hands and are miles better for repeat crosscutting work than a Mitre Saw.
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Re: Dewalt/B&D radial arm saw advice

Postby Mike G » 09 Apr 2021, 13:03

Appears to be missing the guards around the blade. RASs are extremely useful, but one kick, which happens readily, and they're out of square. I find it useful for cutting tenons if I've got lots the same, but it's main use these days is for cutting up firewood. Frankly, that price seems a bit steep to me.
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Re: Dewalt/B&D radial arm saw advice

Postby 9fingers » 09 Apr 2021, 13:36

There are several manuals for these machines in the dropbox for your enjoyment.
Models I have seen including my 1753 have a rear dust collection connection. Not seen that type before.

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Re: Dewalt/B&D radial arm saw advice

Postby Guineafowl21 » 09 Apr 2021, 15:05

Thanks to all.

Trevanion - as ever, you appear to be a one-man British Pathe.

MikeG - yes, I thought it was a bit steep. Offered £220 and he came back with £260.

9fingers - where is the dropbox?

I have a decent Bosch GCM 10” SCMS, which is excellent, but there’s too much flex in the casting for accurate tenoning/lap joints/housings.

So my conclusion is, this is a vintage machine, undoubtedly of good quality, that is a bit overpriced and may be hard to find spares for. I’ll keep it in mind for now. Do we think that I’d be better off with the more common, newer DW125 Powershop?
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Re: Dewalt/B&D radial arm saw advice

Postby 9fingers » 09 Apr 2021, 15:14

Guineafowl21 wrote:
9fingers - where is the dropbox?



Top right on every forum page. Along with other helpful places to browse

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Re: Dewalt/B&D radial arm saw advice

Postby Guineafowl21 » 09 Apr 2021, 15:25

9fingers wrote:
Guineafowl21 wrote:
9fingers - where is the dropbox?



Top right on every forum page. Along with other helpful places to browse

Bob

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Re: Dewalt/B&D radial arm saw advice

Postby AJB Temple » 09 Apr 2021, 16:08

Unless you really want the long reach that a radial arm saw can give, and have a suitable amount of space in your workshop, I would think twice about such a tool. A good quality, large, sliding mitre saw will do most of what a radial will do, but with less travel available. I don't have a radial but I do have a table saw and a 12" sliding mitre saw and would not contemplate a radial for that reason as a pretty much "hobby" woodworker.
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Re: Dewalt/B&D radial arm saw advice

Postby ScaredyCat » 09 Apr 2021, 16:28

If that one doesn't pan out for you there's another here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2539-SAW-DEWALT-XCUT-SAW-GOOD-WORKING-ORDER-NO-LONGER-NEEDED/264406257752?hash=item3d8fd75058:g:6AYAAOSwvdxdNbQ- - no affiliation but I've had some wood from them..
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Re: Dewalt/B&D radial arm saw advice

Postby Trevanion » 09 Apr 2021, 17:29

AJB Temple wrote:Unless you really want the long reach that a radial arm saw can give, and have a suitable amount of space in your workshop, I would think twice about such a tool. A good quality, large, sliding mitre saw will do most of what a radial will do, but with less travel available. I don't have a radial but I do have a table saw and a 12" sliding mitre saw and would not contemplate a radial for that reason as a pretty much "hobby" woodworker.


The nice thing about a radial arm saw is that it does go right against the wall (unless it's one with a travelling arm instead of the head, I've seen people knock holes into the side of a building to accommodate the arm and build a little enclosure on the outside to house it :lol: ) and with some saws, this can actually eat up less room than an equivalent SCMS unless it's a Bosch or Festool.

The SCMS beats the pants off the RAS for quick setup crosscutting and bevel cutting, no real doubt about it, but when it comes to general and repeat crosscutting, steep angled cuts, and some other obscure work such as turning the head through 90-degrees to perform tenon cheek cuts, or even loading in dado/trenching blades for the job, the RAS is the more versatile machine.

As Mike Said, the price is a little steep for a Powershop. I'd personally wait for a nice Older Dewalt, Wadkin Bursgreen BRA, Multico, or another really heavy-duty model as these will be built superiorly and will hold their setting better as well as run smoother on the arm.

There's some great archive footage of the BRA available on Youtube courtesy of Daltons:



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Re: Dewalt/B&D radial arm saw advice

Postby Guineafowl21 » 09 Apr 2021, 21:23

That DW 125(?) that Scaredycat mentioned looks pretty good. What is the arbor size of these machines? For example, would I be able to use any spindle tooling (30mm bore), such as my wobble saw (actually 1 1/4”, but I have reducers), with them?
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Re: Dewalt/B&D radial arm saw advice

Postby Guineafowl21 » 09 Apr 2021, 21:46

AJB Temple wrote:Unless you really want the long reach that a radial arm saw can give, and have a suitable amount of space in your workshop, I would think twice about such a tool. A good quality, large, sliding mitre saw will do most of what a radial will do, but with less travel available. I don't have a radial but I do have a table saw and a 12" sliding mitre saw and would not contemplate a radial for that reason as a pretty much "hobby" woodworker.

You do have a point. But I’ve been reading ‘Cabinetmaking and Millwork” by Feirer, and it seems that every chapter, whether it be ripping, tenoning, moulding, routing, dowelling or whatever, contains a section on how to do these operations with a radial arm saw. It’s simply everywhere in the book.

I’m intrigued by the versatility.
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Re: Dewalt/B&D radial arm saw advice

Postby AJB Temple » 09 Apr 2021, 22:02

Yes, I have the student edition of that but I think the original dates back to 1970 ish? So it reflects the tools of the time. There are a number of things you could do with a RAS, like routing apparently, but you wouldn't if you have a router or spindle. Tenons are easy on a table saw or sliding mitre (mine has a depth setting) - and so on. But they are so cheap now that there isn't much to lose by trying a used one. Go for it!
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Re: Dewalt/B&D radial arm saw advice

Postby Trevanion » 09 Apr 2021, 22:26

Guineafowl21 wrote:That DW 125(?) that Scaredycat mentioned looks pretty good. What is the arbor size of these machines? For example, would I be able to use any spindle tooling (30mm bore), such as my wobble saw (actually 1 1/4”, but I have reducers), with them?


It depends on the machine, typically the Dewalt machines have a 5/8" / 16mm arbour that is about long enough to take a dado stack or a split groover, but I'm not sure if it would take a wobble saw that has quite a tall sleeve, I think 25-30mm would be about your limit between the flanges. The later saws from the '80s and '90s have a 5/8" / 16mm arbour but have a machined flange that has a 30mm step-down for 30mm bore blades, for dado/trenching blades this needs to be taken off and an ancillary flange that doesn't have the step put in its place. The only downside is that the machines are a little underpowered for the job at around 2HP, especially with wider grooves

Wadkin Bursgreen BRA saws have a 1" shaft and I believe some of the much heavier machines like the CC have a 1 1/4" shaft, of course, these are industrial-grade machines designed to work hard therefore everything is beefed up. Where I used to work we used a BRA with a 250mm split groover quite often for trenching out the cills of boxed sash windows, guard in place, of course. Quite a miserable operation as the cill was pre-moulded to its section in long lengths and then cut to length and trenched, which meant the angled cill was only bearing at the very bottom of the fence on some cuts and the cutting action which was about 150mm off the bottom of the table had a habit of wanting to pull the cill over the fence and into the saw as well as the saw wanting to pull into the cill.

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If you watch the Wadkin Archive videos you will see they actually used spindle tooling with these saws and had complete fence units (Which I believe were just the BRS/BER spindle moulder fences) you could buy to bolt to your table when using it. In the old days these really were advertised as the only machine aside from a planer a small workshop would need as it would do your ripping, crosscutting, moulding, routing, sanding, and whatever else you could come up with.
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Re: Dewalt/B&D radial arm saw advice

Postby Guineafowl21 » 10 Apr 2021, 09:55

AJB Temple wrote:Yes, I have the student edition of that but I think the original dates back to 1970 ish


My edition was undoubtedly owned by an American schoolboy, as it bears the inscription: “Thomas is a fag” :o

Any thoughts on this one?: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dewalt-radia ... 4721557445

It’s a DW 8001, with 30mm arbor.

@Trevanion those Wadkin BRAs (tee hee) are lovely but they do fetch a hell of price.

Looking back at the original saw, first post, some of the high price is due to the dado stack, which I’ve found to be quite expensive.
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Re: Dewalt/B&D radial arm saw advice

Postby Trevanion » 11 Apr 2021, 10:47

Guineafowl21 wrote:
Any thoughts on this one?: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dewalt-radia ... 4721557445

It’s a DW 8001, with 30mm arbor.


The later models like this one don't feel as sturdy or refined as the earlier ones, the bearings rumble along the track and the head has very little mass which for some reason seems to increase snatching, and a very common fault is for the start-stop switch to go, I think a new switch was about £30 from Shurter when I did my old Elu (identical saw part for part). I'm don't think it has a 30mm arbour, it's probably got what I said before which is a 5/8" / 16mm arbour with a flange that has a 30mm step-down to accommodate 30mm bore blades.

Guineafowl21 wrote:@Trevanion those Wadkin BRAs (tee hee) are lovely but they do fetch a hell of price.


They have gone up in price more recently, you used to be able to pick them up for £300-350 no problem whatsoever, which is still the case if you keep an eye out:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wadkin-bra-350-radial-arm-saw-/294034322143?hash=item4475cfb2df%3Ag%3AA8wAAOSw7oZgOOyr&nma=true&si=40bWmnoafPWxkEuoeAXJq8Go7cs%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WADKIN-Crosscut-Saw-Model-BRA/174705746027?hash=item28ad46206b:g:RigAAOSwSixgXNPW

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wadkin-Bersgreen-Radial-Arm-And-Cross-Cut-Saw/383923457224?hash=item59639f0cc8:g:cIIAAOSwuC5gEpP0

And Multico Machines are also worth considering:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MULTICO-RADIAL-ARM-CROSS-CUT-SAW-/224399551263?hash=item343f416b1f%3Ag%3AdfcAAOSwkM5gXHrG&nma=true&si=40bWmnoafPWxkEuoeAXJq8Go7cs%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Guineafowl21 wrote:Looking back at the original saw, first post, some of the high price is due to the dado stack, which I’ve found to be quite expensive.


Yes, a new set is around £180, although you can find older sets for less.

https://www.scosarg.com/cmt-230-dado-saw-blade-set-d-200-z-12-d-5-8
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Re: Dewalt/B&D radial arm saw advice

Postby Guineafowl21 » 12 Apr 2021, 09:00

I nearly got this one:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/wadkin-cross ... 3963760873

But the offer was rejected. Maybe for the best, as I’m not sure that would fit on a pallet.

I might try a Powershop of some sort, and then if I like it, look for a more solid beast.
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Re: Dewalt/B&D radial arm saw advice

Postby Guineafowl21 » 13 Apr 2021, 20:57

Guineafowl21 wrote:I nearly got this one:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/wadkin-cross ... 3963760873

But the offer was rejected. Maybe for the best, as I’m not sure that would fit on a pallet.

I might try a Powershop of some sort, and then if I like it, look for a more solid beast.

@Trevanion this one is up for sale again ^^^

I’d be grateful for your thoughts on it.
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Re: Dewalt/B&D radial arm saw advice

Postby Trevanion » 13 Apr 2021, 22:50

Guineafowl21 wrote:I’d be grateful for your thoughts on it.


You want my thoughts? You really must be desperate :lol:

So it's clearly been used in a commercial workshop employing a few employees as it's got the scissor side guards, electric brake and head return spring which are required by the HSE. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as there's very little to go wrong with the machine, but naturally, machines in a commercial environment tend to get a bit more use and abuse than one that's had a single gentle owner/operator for most of its lifespan in a little trade workshop. I personally don't like scissor guards as I've never come across any that worked that well on a RAS, they make the cutting action feel more clunky, and if anything they're more dangerous as they have a habit of the bolts working loose and going into the blade. I'm not sure what the piece of aluminium bolted to the side of it is. I'm personally not a fan of return springs neither, there's nothing really wrong with them but I've never liked them.

A return spring is about a £100 part, scissor guards are another £80 or so, a Brook Crompton DC brake unit is another £500 brand new.

Anyway, back to the saw itself. It's not the version with the cabinet underneath it which is a little more desirable for tooling storage but you can quite easily just make something to suit. From what I can see in the photos all the commonly broken parts like the height adjustment screw handle and the locking levers all seem to be intact. You can't tell what a machine is like mechanically from the photos of course, it would take a lot of work and neglect for the runner bearings that run on the arm to get worn out, but when they do these special bearings cost £100 each. The motor is pretty much bomb-proof, I've never heard of one fail before.

It looks like a decent machine, but it's one of those things I'd rather see in person before buying. I reckon it should fit on a pallet just fine, they're decently sized but they're not massive, just a little bit bigger than the Dewalt Powershop models.
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Re: Dewalt/B&D radial arm saw advice

Postby Guineafowl21 » 13 Apr 2021, 23:04

Trevanion wrote:
Guineafowl21 wrote:I’d be grateful for your thoughts on it.


You want my thoughts? You really must be desperate :lol:

So it's clearly been used in a commercial workshop employing a few employees as it's got the scissor side guards, electric brake and head return spring which are required by the HSE. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as there's very little to go wrong with the machine, but naturally, machines in a commercial environment tend to get a bit more use and abuse than one that's had a single gentle owner/operator for most of its lifespan in a little trade workshop. I personally don't like scissor guards as I've never come across any that worked that well on a RAS, they make the cutting action feel more clunky, and if anything they're more dangerous as they have a habit of the bolts working loose and going into the blade. I'm not sure what the piece of aluminium bolted to the side of it is. I'm personally not a fan of return springs neither, there's nothing really wrong with them but I've never liked them.

A return spring is about a £100 part, scissor guards are another £80 or so, a Brook Crompton DC brake unit is another £500 brand new.

Anyway, back to the saw itself. It's not the version with the cabinet underneath it which is a little more desirable for tooling storage but you can quite easily just make something to suit. From what I can see in the photos all the commonly broken parts like the height adjustment screw handle and the locking levers all seem to be intact. You can't tell what a machine is like mechanically from the photos of course, it would take a lot of work and neglect for the runner bearings that run on the arm to get worn out, but when they do these special bearings cost £100 each. The motor is pretty much bomb-proof, I've never heard of one fail before.

It looks like a decent machine, but it's one of those things I'd rather see in person before buying. I reckon it should fit on a pallet just fine, they're decently sized but they're not massive, just a little bit bigger than the Dewalt Powershop models.


Don’t be so hard on yourself - you know your machines :eusa-clap:

Thanks for the advice.
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Re: Dewalt/B&D radial arm saw advice

Postby Guineafowl21 » 21 Apr 2021, 08:29

Got it, and now under restoration.

Guess which sticky-outy handle broke in transit?

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Now guess which way the seller turned this elevating handle for transit - A) inboard or B) outboard :eusa-doh:

Guard boss also busted, but I found a BSW bolt to hold things in line while the epoxy sets. Bolt greased:

919FD400-2B9F-48FE-9C28-26D80BE54893.jpeg
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By some miracle, the bits were still knocking around the pallet. The cast handle has welded quite nicely with the nickel stainless rods I have. Broken edges chamfered, then parts go in the oven at 180 C till nice and hot. Quickly tack both sides, then complete the welds, then back in the oven and turn it down gradually over a hour or so.

On the plus side, it spins up beautifully and is whisper-quiet. The DC brake is a marvel.

Everything else has been a satisfying strip-down and general clean of machined faces with grinder and wire wheel, then light grease and back together. The track bearings cleaned up nicely and the two left hand ones, with eccentric cams, have been adjusted for preload.

More pics to follow. In the meantime, a fun question, noting that this was sold to me by a joiner:

1) When shipping a heavy saw on a pallet, do you:

A) Strap it down
B) Screw it down using leg holes provided
C) Both of the above
D) None of the above, sod it.

Seller went with D. :text-bravo: He did wrap it nicely, so all the resultant broken off bits remained with it.

*** Apologies for heavy sarcasm ***
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Re: Dewalt/B&D radial arm saw advice

Postby Mike G » 21 Apr 2021, 08:41

Congratualtions on getting a nice little machine, but what a pity about the packing and breakages.
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Re: Dewalt/B&D radial arm saw advice

Postby Guineafowl21 » 21 Apr 2021, 09:00

Mike G wrote:Congratualtions on getting a nice little machine, but what a pity about the packing and breakages.

Thank you. I took the breakages on the chin, with a weary sigh of experience on ebay.

None of my mates has yet described it as a ‘nice little machine’! Comments so far:

“Wow it’s enormous!”

And my particular favourite, when demonstrating the saw blade horizontally:

“How long till you disembowel yourself?”

*** Editor’s note: I am slightly peeved that ‘favourite’ is underlined in red, in favour (argh! Again!) of ‘favorite’. ***
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Re: Dewalt/B&D radial arm saw advice

Postby AndyT » 21 Apr 2021, 09:17

Guineafowl21 wrote:
*** Editor’s note: I am slightly peeved that ‘favourite’ is underlined in red, in favour (argh! Again!) of ‘favorite’. ***


You can fix this. Have a dig into your web browser settings. Somewhere there will be a language or dictionary option that just needs a nudge over to this side of the Atlantic.
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Re: Dewalt/B&D radial arm saw advice

Postby Trevanion » 21 Apr 2021, 10:52

Ah, a shame about the idiot who packed it, some people have absolutely no common sense whatsoever and will plead that “It was fine when it left here, the courier damaged it”. I once bought a big load of spindle tooling weighing about 50kg total, cutters left in the blocks, and the seller didn’t even bother putting bubble wrap in the box to prevent them rattling against each other, some parts went missing as the cutters punched holes in the box. I did have quite a nice box jointing set but since the heavy steel cutter blocks were in there with them unseparated they got smashed to smithereens, irreparable.

Still, a tidy machine even with the damage and you seem to have sorted it with little issue.
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