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Bookcase WIP - Dun

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Re: Bookcase WIP - Gluing

Postby Woodbloke » 11 May 2019, 14:57

Mike G wrote:I know gluing comes next, so I'm jumping the gun a bit, but is there any glue on the joint between veneer pieces?


Patience Mike, all will be revealed :lol: - Rob
Last edited by Woodbloke on 17 May 2019, 08:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bookcase WIP - Making the 'Lay-Up'

Postby Jimmy Mack » 11 May 2019, 18:17

Mike G wrote:I know gluing comes next, so I'm jumping the gun a bit, but is there any glue on the joint between veneer pieces?


:eusa-think: Knowing Rob's a keen reader of Mr Ingham, I'd say there's a VERY good chance Mike :D

It's an excellent method, particularly on the thin stuff around 0.5mm...no more tears, a perfect joint (assuming it's well shot).



Great stuff so far Rob 8-)
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Re: Bookcase WIP - Gluing

Postby Woodbloke » 17 May 2019, 08:57

The glue-up is straightforward, provided as always that everything is organised before hand. Lay the veneer lay-up on the gluing table so that the first section hangs over the edge; the small Gluebot is ideal to run a tiny bead of glue along the joint, then repeat for all the others hanging each joint over the edge in turn:

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Next lay the complete lay-up on the table and apply a goodly coating of glue on the substrate, remembering to spread the glue over every part, especially the edges and corners:

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Drop whatever tool you've been using to spread the glue into a bucket of water on the floor; this means you've then got a fighting chance of removing the glue ready for the next lay-up:

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Slide the job into the vacuum bag, veneer side down. Note that I've used some blue tape to secure it at the corners; this stops the lay-up from sliding around as it's positioned in the bag. With my set up, I use an additional very large ordinary plastic bag inside the AirPress polyurethane one, which means that any 'squeeze out' is deposited on the plastic bag rather than the AirPress one. The 125micron thick plastic bag also gives an extra measure of protection on sharp corners. Not really needed though as the AirPress bag is 600microns thick:

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To speed up the curing time in the bag, I usually add a bit of top heat via a single 'leccy blanket:

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...and to make it extra toasty, one of the kid's old duvet's goes over the top as well:

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I generally leave it in the bag under full suckage for around two hours, after which the job is removed, most of the excess veneer is trimmed off on the bandsaw and the remainder is bearing cut on the router table:

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The masking tape can be peeled off and the easiest way to remove the veneer tape is to wet it with a sponge and then scrape off with a card scraper, provided you've used a fully waterproof glue!

When the first couple of bits came out the bag, they'd taken on an alarming bow :shock:, which was caused by the baseboard inside the bag bowing due to lack of support:

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With very careful and gradual reverse cramping over some 36 hours, the bowing was straightened out but in order to ensure the baseboard was adequately supported for further work, I made a much more substantial support for the bag:

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Cleaning up and glass runner grooves next - Rob
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Re: Bookcase WIP - Gluing

Postby 9fingers » 17 May 2019, 09:27

Rob,
Do you think any of your "warpage" is down to an impervious layer of glue on one face of the substrate and open to the "elephants" on the other face?

Bob

Nb endeavouring to pose the question in your style of writing :lol:
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Re: Bookcase WIP - Gluing

Postby RogerM » 17 May 2019, 09:40

Great stuff Rob! What glue are you using for sticking down the veneer? If one of the TBs, do you find it difficult to work quickly enough without it "skinning" over?

Also what is your reason for placing the workpiece in the bag veneer down. I have always gone veneer side up so that I can see that nothing has moved, and it also gives me one last chance to run over the joins with a small roller just in case one or more of the veneers is not "flush" with its neighbour.
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Re: Bookcase WIP - Gluing

Postby Woodbloke » 17 May 2019, 10:16

9fingers wrote:Rob,
Do you think any of your "warpage" is down to an impervious layer of glue on one face of the substrate and open to the "elephants" on the other face?

Bob

Nb endeavouring to pose the question in your style of writing :lol:


:lol: Possibly Bob, but I put a straight edge across the the baseboard and it had more or less the same amount of bowage as the job when it came out, so being good at sums, I put 2+2 together and assumed that this was the cause of the warpage

RogerM wrote:Great stuff Rob! What glue are you using for sticking down the veneer? If one of the TBs, do you find it difficult to work quickly enough without it "skinning" over?

Also what is your reason for placing the workpiece in the bag veneer down. I have always gone veneer side up so that I can see that nothing has moved, and it also gives me one last chance to run over the joins with a small roller just in case one or more of the veneers is not "flush" with its neighbour.


Forget that 'murrican TB crap Rog, Everbuild D4 is the stuff you need. Fully waterproof, equally as good as TB3 and I can buy a litre locally for less than a fiver. If the veneer is placed 'upside' in the bag, the vacuum generated inside the bag will pull the veneer down over the edge and crack (you literally do hear a loud 'crack') great big chunks off along the lipping. I suspect that if you're able to lay them veneer side up in your bag it probably isn't pulling enough suckage...dunno. The AirPress pump pulls an incredible vacuum and the needle on the gauge goes way past the max setting. If you've pulled the joints together 'righty tighty' with good quality masking tape and used veneer tape along the joint, the glue line will be (assuming the veneers have been shot in correctly) invisible - Rob
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Re: Bookcase WIP - Gluing

Postby RogerM » 17 May 2019, 11:12

Woodbloke wrote: Everbuild D4 is the stuff you need. Fully waterproof, equally as good as TB3 and I can buy a litre locally for less than a fiver.


Thanks for the glue tip Rob. I'll get some.

Woodbloke wrote:If the veneer is placed 'upside' in the bag, the vacuum generated inside the bag will pull the veneer down over the edge and crack (you literally do hear a loud 'crack') great big chunks off along the lipping. I suspect that if you're able to lay them veneer side up in your bag it probably isn't pulling enough suckage...dunno. The AirPress pump pulls an incredible vacuum and the needle on the gauge goes way past the max setting. If you've pulled the joints together 'righty tighty' with good quality masking tape and used veneer tape along the joint, the glue line will be (assuming the veneers have been shot in correctly) invisible - Rob


I don't think I have a pump problem. The bag compresses the breather fabric as tight as a ducks bum. :lol: I've been veneering my substrate before cutting it to its' final size, so the veneer has never overhung the edge. I can see that if it did, placing it upside down on a board inside the bag as you have done is the way to go. In fairness, I've never really had a problem with veneer gluelines failing, but I get paranoid about these things, particularly when there are a lot of them.
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Re: Bookcase WIP - Gluing

Postby Mike G » 17 May 2019, 11:41

Interesting, Rod.

I wouldn't be surprised if the cupping were to do with heat and wet glue being applied to one side of the board and not to the other. An experiment where you varnish the underside first, then sandwich the work between 2 electric blankets, would give a bit more of a clue, I guess.
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Re: Bookcase WIP - Gluing

Postby Woodbloke » 17 May 2019, 12:58

RogerM wrote:[I've been veneering my substrate before cutting it to its' final size, so the veneer has never overhung the edge.


In that case you're braver than wot I am Rog :D Even if it overhangs by the merest few mm or so, it'll crack off. There is a simple way to apply pressure veneer side up and have some overhang, which I may do for the shelf later, but having some spare veneer which is bearing cut away means that you can be a lot more accurate with where the board edge should be. If your veneer is even slightly inside the edge and the lipping is showing when it comes out the bag, you're somewhat 'fubar'd' :(

Mike G wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if the cupping were to do with heat and wet glue being applied to one side of the board and not to the other


It could be but this sort of thing hasn't happened in the past; it's too much of a coincidence that the baseboard had a noticeable bend in it which the new stand has now corrected - Rob
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Re: Bookcase WIP - Gluing

Postby Mike G » 17 May 2019, 18:01

Woodbloke wrote:
RogerM wrote:[I've been veneering my substrate before cutting it to its' final size, so the veneer has never overhung the edge.


In that case you're braver than wot I am Rog .......


If I'm following what Roger is saying, then I don't think he is. He seems to me to be using an over-sized substrate, and applying oversized veneers, and is simply cutting back afterwards.
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Re: Bookcase WIP - Gluing

Postby Woodbloke » 18 May 2019, 09:22

Mike G wrote:
Woodbloke wrote:
RogerM wrote:[I've been veneering my substrate before cutting it to its' final size, so the veneer has never overhung the edge.


In that case you're braver than wot I am Rog .......


If I'm following what Roger is saying, then I don't think he is. He seems to me to be using an over-sized substrate, and applying oversized veneers, and is simply cutting back afterwards.


Yes, I see where you're at Mike; that would work but on a couple of these panels (top n'bottom) they've been lipped and mitred at the corners to pretty much the size required (bar a few shavings to clean up) so it's much trickier to make them oversize and then cut them back to the required dimension as I then may loose the definition on the mitred corners.
FWIW, it's 'normal' practice to make the substrate the required size, veneer top and bottom, then clean up - Rob
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Re: Bookcase WIP - Gluing

Postby RogerM » 18 May 2019, 09:36

Woodbloke wrote:FWIW, it's 'normal' practice to make the substrate the required size, veneer top and bottom, then clean up - Rob


Since when have you ever known me to approach things the "normal" way Rob?! :lol:

With mitred corners I can see why you veneer on top of a completed substrate, apart from the final clean up. When I'm confronted with a similar problem I'll go back to scratching my head. It just goes to show though that there are always several ways to approach a problem, and if yours works for you - why fix it? :eusa-dance:

Great thread, this, Rob. I love the learning process!
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Re: Bookcase WIP - Gluing

Postby Woodbloke » 18 May 2019, 14:24

RogerM wrote:
Woodbloke wrote:FWIW, it's 'normal' practice to make the substrate the required size, veneer top and bottom, then clean up - Rob


Since when have you ever known me to approach things the "normal" way Rob?! :lol:



That's why I writ normal as 'normal' Rog :lol: - Rob
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Re: Bookcase WIP - Gluing

Postby Mike G » 18 May 2019, 19:39

Woodbloke wrote:........FWIW, it's 'normal' practice to make the substrate the required size, veneer top and bottom, then clean up - Rob


I guess you could support the overhangs on scraps from the substrate, maybe wrapped in plastic or tape.

Tell me, with this enormous clamping pressure is squeeze-out a big issue? I mean, if glue found its way out through a weakness in a veneer, or through a join, it could make something of a mess, couldn't it.
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Re: Bookcase WIP - Gluing

Postby RogerM » 18 May 2019, 20:25

Mike G wrote:
Woodbloke wrote:........FWIW, it's 'normal' practice to make the substrate the required size, veneer top and bottom, then clean up - Rob


I guess you could support the overhangs on scraps from the substrate, maybe wrapped in plastic or tape.

Tell me, with this enormous clamping pressure is squeeze-out a big issue? I mean, if glue found its way out through a weakness in a veneer, or through a join, it could make something of a mess, couldn't it.


Mike - I don't think support from scraps would really work. Best to do as Rob recommends and place the work veneer down on to a larger board, all within the vacuum bag and with a sheet of plastic separating them, to act as support all the way around. Or do as I have done and have an oversize substrate and cut to size after the veneering has been done so that there is no overhang.

A vacuum bag will exert around 10 tons of pressure per sq metre, so if there is excess adhesive it will squeeze out! Spreading adhesive evenly is the key. I have used a foam roller for PVA type glues, or a fine toothed spreader when using Epoxy Resin as in my Sunburst Table thread. If the squeeze out is around the edges it is not usually a problem. If it squeezes out through small knot holes or pores in the wood then it can be a problem, depending on the finish planned. If your joints are good, it shouldn't squeeze out at that point - but if there is a lot of excess glue it will find a way!
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Re: Bookcase WIP - Gluing

Postby Woodbloke » 19 May 2019, 09:11

Mike G wrote:
Woodbloke wrote:........FWIW, it's 'normal' practice to make the substrate the required size, veneer top and bottom, then clean up - Rob


I guess you could support the overhangs on scraps from the substrate, maybe wrapped in plastic or tape.

Tell me, with this enormous clamping pressure is squeeze-out a big issue? I mean, if glue found its way out through a weakness in a veneer, or through a join, it could make something of a mess, couldn't it.


As Rog has said above Mike, under the pressure inside the bag, any excess glue (and there's bound to be some) will squeeze out and deposit itself the inside main bag. This means that when the pressing is done, you've literally got to crawl inside the bag :shock: on hands and knees to remove it; if not the hardened glue may interfere with the next pressing. Using a separate large plastic bag (I found some big 'uns on Amazon) as a liner means that it can be easily removed from the main bag and the glue peeled off.

As to applying pressure veneer side up, scraps of wood the same thickness as the job placed alongside and some little distance from it (this is critical!) prevent the bag from pulling the veneer at 90deg over the edge of the lipping. If you make the distance 'twixt the scrap and the job just a smidge too far, you'd best don the ear muffs as the veneer is liable to go 'bang!' :cry: This only applies on long grain btw; the end grain may bend a little but generally it won't break - Rob
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Re: Bookcase WIP - Groovy Baby and More...

Postby Woodbloke » 24 May 2019, 16:00

Having dun n'dusted the veneering, the tape can be cleaned off each of the surfaces and then they're initially finished:

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I decided to go with scraper planes rather than a high angle BU smoother as if a lump of unruly grain is encountered there's liable to be some serious tear out, whereas with scraper planes this doesn't occur.

Each board was then sanded with the ROS to 80g:

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The grooves for the plastic door track were then machined, remembering to put the deepest one on the top section of the bookcase. All the sheds used at one time to sell this tracking, but it appears now to be rarer than rocking horse teeth :D ; I bought mine from Carlisle Glass 'oop Narth' (much northerer of where Trim lives :lol: )

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I used a 12mm cutter (used later for proper 'old skool' mortices) and had to make several passes to get the required depth and width; test for a snug, but not tight fit with a couple of oddments:

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I was aiming for a bit of slight clearance:

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I've started already to go about making the stand, which appears to be a bit of a cock-eyed way of going about it. The reason is that the stand needs to be (in theory :eusa-pray: :eusa-whistle: ) more or less co-planar with the bookcase bottom, so it seemed sensible to try and make it before the bookcase is glued. This is so that eventually the completed piece can be pushed hard against the skirting board and right into the corner of the room:

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The pic shows the eventual position of the front rail. In next week's thrilling episode, the stand will hopefully start to come together. It's a bit of a long winded and complicated process but one which I used successfully on the Korean Chest of Drawers finished a while back - Rob
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Re: Bookcase - The Stand

Postby Woodbloke » 02 Jun 2019, 16:47

Apart from some more scraping, sanding and general titivating, the stand is...

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...just about done and the bottom of the bookcase....

IMG_2954.jpg
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...is co-planar with the frame. The only thing to add is a small roundover detail on the edges once everything has been finished - Rob
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Re: Bookcase WIP - The Stand

Postby Malc2098 » 02 Jun 2019, 16:56

Nice. I like the curved inside corners.
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Re: Bookcase WIP - The Stand

Postby Woodbloke » 02 Jun 2019, 17:35

Malc2098 wrote:Nice. I like the curved inside corners.

Thanks Malc; easy enough to do with a template and router bearing cutter - Rob
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Re: Bookcase WIP - The Stand

Postby Woodbloke » 02 Jun 2019, 19:43

Twenty minutes to cut the 8mm dominos and....

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....this is the first 'dry run' of the bookcase. Lots of adjustments to make, not least to swap the end panels round, but it's starting to take shape - Rob
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Re: Bookcase WIP - The Stand

Postby RogerM » 02 Jun 2019, 19:47

Looking great Rob. This is going to be a really elegant piece.
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Re: Bookcase WIP - The Stand

Postby Rod » 02 Jun 2019, 22:09

Why the different woods at the corner?

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Re: Bookcase WIP - The Stand

Postby Woodbloke » 03 Jun 2019, 16:37

Rod wrote:Why the different woods at the corner?

Rod
Just different coloured blocks of oak glued on to form the extra needed for the curve - Rob
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Re: Bookcase WIP - Glueing

Postby Woodbloke » 05 Jun 2019, 18:32

Glueing up the sides one at a time....

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...using a super accurate square made on the Parf table. This ensures that each side is dead square to the base. Internal surfaces have had a couple of coats of Osmo PolyX and the holes for the single shelf were made with the Veritas Shelf Jig - Rob
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