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Set of circular segmented steps

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Set of circular segmented steps

Postby RogerS » 12 Dec 2019, 16:35

I've now consolidated this early thread into an actual project

Continuing the saga of the steps ....

I'm making up this pair of steps to manage the transition in level between two floor levels thus.
Image

Please note...that ghastly colour of the floorboards is not like that in real life !

This was my original design but veto'd by CD (Chief Designer)
Image

and now the idea is to continue the new floorboards on the higher level continuing through and into the top step as here
Image

NB The floorboards won't be all cutoff in a straight line at the RH side....

I like the idea of that transitional semi-circle to indicate or draw attention to the edge of the step. I planned to have a half-round oak bead then applied on the outer face. All repeated on the lower step. Radii of steps being 550mm and 850mm. Pretty sure that beading off-the-peg could be bent round to fit those radii without too much bother.

But I'm coming round to thinking that beading will look too 'skinny' and that I should have a bullnose moulding instead.

But here's the rub. The overhang of the bullnose doesn't want to be that great otherwise fixing it solidly becomes problematic IMO as there will be leverage from bodyweight. But if I make it too small then I'm struggling to see how I'd make it up (segmented obviously but in as large size segments as I can manage to minimise seeing the breaks ...ideally it would be one single piece. I do have a quote for it to be steam bent but it's a bit eye-watering.

I can mould the half -round using either the spindle moulder or a template trim router bit and a suitable template affixed. But then how do I achieve a smooth curve on the inside radius.....unless the front-to-back width of the bullnose is several cm to give me some sort of flat area to fix down.

But if I make that too large then that transitional half-circle mentioned above gets pushed back inwards towards the centre of the step which then upsets the aesthetics IMO.

Hope this lot is making sense !
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Re: How to make the moulding (safely)

Postby 9fingers » 12 Dec 2019, 18:13

I'd mount the embryo arc of segments on a sheet of mdf big enough to include the centre of the circles of your arcs.
With some form of trammel, mould all the details you need on the outside and inside of the arc.
Having done the arc, then the edge of the mdf can be routed to match the inside of the arc and that inturn can help trim all the floorboards with a bearing follower.

A re-read of RogerM's sunburst table thread might help?

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Re: How to make the moulding (safely)

Postby RogerS » 17 Dec 2019, 14:05

Bob, I've read that article ..very helpful. The fan design has been rejected by CD.

But...we have a plan.

This is the final design.

Image
The nosing (or edge moulding) …the one thing that was causing me grief …has been resolved by making it from coopered segments. It will be 40mm deep (ignore that extra line on the image that makes it look like a planted on half round)

The steps are NOT semi-circles but circular segments - as proposed by MikeG and they do look much better than semi-circles. I’ve done very little curved work especially on this scale and so decided to breakdown the steps into the individual components and consider :

if there were any critical relationships with adjacent parts
how easy or even how to make them
fixing them
any requirements for strength

1) subframe. 18mm ply. This will be from two segments per step and separated by verticals using pocket screws and glue.

SketchUp is your friend and allows me to mark out where I need to make the cuts to get the required pieces and squeeze it all out from just two boards of 18mm ply.

Image
2) veneered ‘transition’ marker. This is the one critical piece as both the outer nosing (3) and floorboards (4) can be more easily tweaked to fit. (It says here ‘in theory’ !). I have made two templates (one per step) but will keep them stable by leaving them attached to the ‘motherboard’.

Image

The ply + veneer thickness is slightly under that required to match the thickness of the floorboards and so I’ll be using some more constructional veneer on the other side to get the required thickness.

Fitting this to the subframe will be glue and small dominos.

3) nosing (moulding) - solid oak. I have a template made up from ply for the whole piece but don’t have the width of oak to do it in one piece. So it will need to be coopered. I can use a bearing guided router trimmer and the template. Only concern is safely handling pieces past the router bit. Needs more thought.

Here I’ve started to cut the template for the nosing using a long trammel and router. In hindsight completely cutting out the template for this wasn’t a good idea as there was a little springback…even though it’s a manmade board.

Image

I also decided, after advice from Steve Maskery, to only partially cut through with the router cutter (because you need to make many, many shallow cuts) then rough cut the remainder with a jigsaw and then use a bearing guided trimmer to make good using the profile cut with the router bit as the guide. Certainly speeded things up.

4) risers. The benefit of making a subframe is that I don’t need to do anything clever …such as laminating the riser. I can veneer onto 6mm MDF and fit it to the fronts of the subframe. Concerns are veneering it with the correct bend and maintaining that bend while I fit it.

getting there ....

Image
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Re: How to make the moulding (safely)

Postby 9fingers » 17 Dec 2019, 14:18

RogerS wrote:Bob, I've read that article ..very helpful. The fan design has been rejected by CD.



I was not so much thinking of the sunburst design itself but some of the jiggery and methods when RogerM was making the curved apron to the table.
Looks like you are making progress anyway.
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Re: How to make the moulding (safely)

Postby Andyp » 17 Dec 2019, 17:05

Have you looked into steam bending the oak moulding Roger?
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Re: How to make the moulding (safely)

Postby RogerS » 17 Dec 2019, 17:35

Andyp wrote:Have you looked into steam bending the oak moulding Roger?


I got a quote from a company to do this but a bit eye-watering, TBH.
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Re: How to make the moulding (safely)

Postby Andyp » 17 Dec 2019, 19:45

I thought you might have a bash with a wallpaper stripper and some drainpipe.
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Re: How to make the moulding (safely)

Postby RogerS » 17 Dec 2019, 20:10

Andyp wrote:I thought you might have a bash with a wallpaper stripper and some drainpipe.


LOL...where am I going to get a wallpaper stripper from !

I actually wish I'd got the stuff done by a local CNC place TBH......too much to do...too much to do.

Found out today that the floor is 1" out over 1600mm...right by the door ....all the fiddling about to get it level ...grrrr. :evil:
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Re: How to make the moulding (safely)

Postby Andyp » 17 Dec 2019, 20:27

Fair enough Roger, I presumed with a house that size you must have down some stripping - of wallpaper.
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Re: How to make the moulding (safely)

Postby RogerS » 17 Dec 2019, 22:32

Andyp wrote:Fair enough Roger, I presumed with a house that size you must have down some stripping - of wallpaper.


No, 200+ sheets of plasterboard.
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby RogerS » 28 Dec 2019, 08:57

This project is definitely something you wouldn't want to tackle as a paid job. Way too many if's and but's and 'How the hell am I going to do this?'. A lot of interdependencies affecting the sequence and timing of the work.

First off is getting the sub-frame sorted. Starts of with the bottom piece fixed in position. A simple job until you find that in the time-honoured tradition of the builder who resurrected our wreck back in 1975 for the then-owner, his refusal to ever use a spirit level continued.

So that bottom piece has to be wedged, glued and screwed in place to level it up.

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Image
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby RogerS » 28 Dec 2019, 09:16

Managed to get out into the workshop yesterday to veneer the arc for the bottom step in the vacuum press. Not used it since we moved three years ago. Ran it up and it seemed to suck OK. Veneer pieces all cut. A nice bit of veneer for the top and some constructional veneer for underneath to bring the overall thickness to that of the floorboards that will be inset. Bought a sheet from Capital Crispin at an astronomical price TBH and glad it's underneath as there's virtually no 'figuring' of any description. Maybe I'll try Mundy's next time.

First time veneering something as thin and curvy...bit of a 'mares TBH. Stuck it in the bag and turned the pump on and waited. And waited. And waited. Air was going out but not very fast. Cranked it up (or so I thought) but after 15 minutes I could see that it wasn't going to do the biz anytime soon and so I invoked MPM (Mad Panic Mode) .

Image

We shall see tomorrow.

In the meantime I investigated the pump and discovered that numbnuts here had misunderstood the scale and had tweaked down to minimum suck. So with a bit of luck it will be OK for the other stuff. Nonetheless I will try and do a trial run before committing.
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby RogerS » 31 Dec 2019, 15:56

'Compulsory' holiday got in the way of much progress :evil:

But tolerably pleased with the veneer after the earlier panic. Obviously still some finessing to do.

Image

Image

Attention now turning to making the vertical veneered curved panels. I think the two 'critical' points for fixing are at the extremes. As per this diagram -

Image

Proposing to have blocks glued and screwed at each end and also others distributed around the periphery. The blocks will be then screwed into large pieces of timber (fitted radially) that are themselves fixed to the bottom baseboard. The edge of the bottom baseboard will be glued to the bottom of the vertical panel. The blocks at the extreme ends will be double the height that's needed thus allowing me to screw a long batten across the chord to keep the vertical panels curved and in place while everything (glue etc) goes off.

Once the vertical panel has been fixed to the bottom baseboard but before it's all set, glue the edge of the top baseboard and push that into position to give as tight a fit as I can manage to the top of the vertical panel.

So basically that vertical panel is glued all the way round at the top and bottom. Plus intermediate blocks screwed to it prior to veneering that are fixed to the radials. My one concern though is this. Seems to me that most of the stress is at the two extremities by the wall. Just glueing blocks won't work as the MDF will delaminate I think and spring back hence small screws through the MDF into those blocks prior to veneering. Just wondering about them pulling through the MDF.

I've put the MDF (6mm) in tension around a former to encourage it to stay bent. Don't think I can wet it 'cos it's MDF.
Image

Any thoughts ?
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby RogerM » 31 Dec 2019, 16:37

You could cut some kerfs in the back of the mdf panel to make it more bendy, and if you laminated 2 bendy panels together the spring back should be minimal. This advice is of course worth what you've paid for it :lol: .
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby RogerS » 31 Dec 2019, 16:47

RogerM wrote:You could cut some kerfs in the back of the mdf panel to make it more bendy, and if you laminated 2 bendy panels together the spring back should be minimal. This advice is of course worth what you've paid for it :lol: .


That's true. I'd thought about kerfs when I was thinking about thicker material for the front verticals but then when I started thinking 6mm MDF I forgot about them. I seem to recall a kerf calculator ?
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby RogerS » 06 Jan 2020, 16:54

I’ve had two suggestions for ‘easing’ the curve on the 6mm MDF risers : cutting a load of kerfs (RogerM TWH2) and using a hot air gun (ProfChris UKW). Since it’s over 2m long, the thought of cutting all those kerfs didn’t appeal and so I gave the hot air gun a go and it worked a treat. You have to be careful not to get too close to any strapping

Image

The allen key underneath is to spread the strap load evenly over the width. I’d noticed that without it, the MDF was starting to distort under the pressure of the strap.

Still thinking about (a) how to fix the riser to the subframe and (b) keeping it bent between taking it out of the vacuum press and fixing it to the subframe.

The solution to (a) is several blocks glued and screwed to the riser ahead of the veneering..since I don’t really want screw heads in the veneer !!
Image
In an ideal world with a level floor I might have considered making the bottom step as a unit, gluing and screwing the riser on and then veneering but, as mentioned earlier, the floor isn’t level and I would like a nice tight fit down to the floor with the riser so it’s going to be …(a) fit the bottom subframe to the floor (b) veneer (c) fit the riser to the subframe.

The solution to (b) is to have the two blocks at the lefthand and righthand extremes (where the riser meets the wall) extra tall and then have a plywood bar between the two. Using two screws at each end minimises any tendency for the riser to skew. Thus …

Image

This was Plan A. It lasted two whole days.

Remember I’d not done any veneering for over two years and had forgotten what little I knew. First thing was to check the pump was OK and that this time I’d set the ‘suck’ to the right level. It’s also a damn great bag. Test 1…put the riser in the bag but without veneer or glue, started the suck

Image

Not much happened. Then … I found out that it also helps to actually fit the vacuum connector on properly. :oops:

Test 2…well on the way. Success. Image

What next ? I remembered some of that breather membrane needs to go in but I couldn’t remember where it should go …alongside the workpiece ? On top of the veneer ? Did I have to moisten the veneer ? Did some reading around, spoke to a few folk. Membrane goes on top of the caul. Caul ? So thought to use some 6mm MDF as a caul. But speaking to Steve Maskery, he rightly pointed out ‘Why fight 6mm MDF…why not get some 3mm hardboard or picture backing board ?’. He was bang on the money.

Did you know that you can roll up 3mm hardboard and stick it in the back of your car ? No, I didn’t either until yesterday.

Then the thought struck me…looking at that photo…I couldn’t see how it was going to work properly. Surely the underside of the riser needs a better support. Or does the vacuum ‘wrap-around’ as it were and provide equal pressure on the underside? Would it all twist and stretch out of recognition once I’d fully applied the vacuum ?

More Googling…more looking at Youtube. Couldn’t find anyone daft enough to be attempting what I was doing but gut feel suggested that belt and braces dictated a decent support underneath. So unscrew the bottom panel of the subframe from the floor, take that and the upper subframe panel back into the workshop. Screw the riser using those blocks onto the bottom panel …fudge fixing the upper panel fitting all together into some semblance of a support et voila.

Image

Turn on the vacuum pump.

I’d knocked off as many sharp corners as I could and added padding as I didn’t want to tear the bag.

Image

Even then, I think I could have provided more padding.

Image

Image

Doing this has also highlighted one thing…namely that glueing the top of the riser to the upper subframe panel is going to be challenging given the gaps…they will pull in but how ?

Image

I have a cunning plan but that will have to wait.

Oh yes…that scream you heard this afternoon? That was me realising I’d been a muppet because when I went to apply the veneer to the freshly glued surface, it was then that this eejit had cut it 3” too short. That’s something else to sort out. But we are making progress.
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby RogerS » 07 Jan 2020, 10:31

Looking good :)

Image
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby Robert » 07 Jan 2020, 11:00

RogerS wrote:Looking good :)


Certainly is!

No words of wisdom to add but enjoying seeing this develop so thanks for posting :)
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby Malc2098 » 07 Jan 2020, 15:29

Coming along!
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby SamQ aka Ah! Q! » 08 Jan 2020, 20:59

"Facknell" as that man Coren used to write in Punch, you HAVE been in the wars Roger...sure you don't want to deed poll your name to "Job"??
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby RogerS » 08 Jan 2020, 22:04

SamQ aka Ah! Q! wrote:"Facknell" as that man Coren used to write in Punch, you HAVE been in the wars Roger...sure you don't want to deed poll your name to "Job"??
Sam



Que ? :?
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby SamQ aka Ah! Q! » 08 Jan 2020, 22:17

Job. The Bible. Wot God tested. Him that had endless patience?

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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby 9fingers » 08 Jan 2020, 22:31

SamQ aka Ah! Q! wrote:Job. The Bible. Wot God tested. Him that had endless patience?

Sam



Rog, We have a man wiv culture amongst us! :lol: :lol:

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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby Malc2098 » 09 Jan 2020, 00:03

Me, too! I did Religious Knowledge for O Level in 1966! :D
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Re: Set of circular segmented steps

Postby SamQ aka Ah! Q! » 09 Jan 2020, 15:36

P.S. "Deed poll" was the way you changed your name in days of old, maybe even Job's.... :eusa-whistle:
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