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where to buy.... + rant

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where to buy.... + rant

Postby Craig Salisbury » 13 Dec 2020, 15:29

Paints / lacquers like sayerlack when you don't have a "trade" account or a registered business?

I get quite annoyed by the lack of ability to buy products because "trade only guvna". I wonder why this is, safety? (I know there's plenty of stupid out there). protectionism of tradespeople? or just cant be bothered to deal with the public and forego sales? a licensing thing?

Whats the best way of getting around this? I don't want to have to register as a sole trader just to be able to buy products as that seems like a real pita.

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Re: where to buy.... + rant

Postby 9fingers » 13 Dec 2020, 15:39

Worse still try buying Corian or other solid surface products. You can’t buy until you have been on a paid for training course.
Sheer arrogance by manufacturers who think no one can use their product without expensive training.

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Re: where to buy.... + rant

Postby RogerM » 13 Dec 2020, 15:53

I would add Howdens to the list. When I was researching my kitchen build they refused to even speak to me - telling me that I should "get my builder to contact them" whilst they looked down their noses. I was refitting my old kitchen, plus a large kitchen extension, plus a large utility room plus my mother's kitchen and her utility room - somewhere in excess of 100 door and drawer fronts in total, so obviously not big enough to bother with! Their arrogance was breathtaking. They actually saved me a very large sum as I built everything myself, and obviously didn't trouble them when I wanted 14 replacement internal doors, placing the order elsewhere.
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Re: where to buy.... + rant

Postby Sheffield Tony » 13 Dec 2020, 16:05

I went to buy a bag of plastering sand from B&Q. Nothing too complicated you would think :lol: Can't see any in store. Yes, we do have it, but it is "on the trade side". Can I go round and get one ? No, the trade side is drive-through and for tradesmen only. Can you fetch me one ? Oh, we're not supposed to do that.

Eventually I did get the assistant to go and get me a bag, it caused no problems at the checkout. Why ? Why can't a non-trade customer have a bag of sand ? And why say no, then cave in to a little bit of pressure and sell you one anyway ? Nuts.
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Re: where to buy.... + rant

Postby Woodster » 13 Dec 2020, 16:09

9fingers wrote:Worse still try buying Corian or other solid surface products. You can’t buy until you have been on a paid for training course.
Sheer arrogance by manufacturers who think no one can use their product without expensive training.

Bob


I think it’s likely the case the manufacturers don’t want the reputation of their product sullied by amateurs that don't know how to install it properly. Surely not an unreasonable thing for any manufacturer? ;)
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Re: where to buy.... + rant

Postby Doug » 13 Dec 2020, 16:23

It’s simple, the general public are a pain in the ass, not all of them but the majority so trading with the minority that aren’t isn’t worth the hassle caused by the majority.

An example I witnessed first hand. A bloke bought a bath panel back into store claiming it was too short, the assistant pointed out that the panel had been cut, the customer informed him the panel was too short before he cut it, assistant asked why he cut it if it was to short in the first place, no answer just argued it was too short.
The argument went on & on till eventually the manager appeared & agreed to replace the panel, I couldn’t believe it but the manager just said it wasn’t worth the hassle as this type of thing happen every day.
So I asked if I cut a panel too short & bought it back would he replace it he said F off of course not I’d call you a tw at for doing it.
& there in lies the the answer retailers have to bend over backwards for the retail trade but not for trade customers
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Re: where to buy.... + rant

Postby Craig Salisbury » 13 Dec 2020, 16:32

Doug wrote:It’s simple, the general public are a pain in the ass, not all of them but the majority so trading with the minority that aren’t isn’t worth the hassle caused by the majority.

An example I witnessed first hand. A bloke bought a bath panel back into store claiming it was too short, the assistant pointed out that the panel had been cut, the customer informed him the panel was too short before he cut it, assistant asked why he cut it if it was to short in the first place, no answer just argued it was too short.
The argument went on & on till eventually the manager appeared & agreed to replace the panel, I couldn’t believe it but the manager just said it wasn’t worth the hassle as this type of thing happen every day.
So I asked if I cut a panel too short & bought it back would he replace it he said F off of course not I’d call you a tw at for doing it.
& there in lies the the answer retailers have to bend over backwards for the retail trade but not for trade customers


Are the consumer rights not the same? if not then why not just allow anyone to create a trade account with the terms of you screw it up or buy the wrong then thats your own damn fault
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Re: where to buy.... + rant

Postby AndyT » 13 Dec 2020, 18:02

I'm pretty sure consumer rights don't apply in business to business sales.

Also, selling trade only is a commercial decision, to have a smaller number of customers with a higher average spend.
Obviously that's not exactly predictable. Some consumers have big budgets for their hobbies, some businesses go bust, but overall the choice could mean you can manage with a tiny trade counter on an industrial estate rather than expensive town centre space.

Frustrating if the particular product you want doesn't get sold through an accessible channel though.

These people seem to resell Sayerlack

https://www.elmbridgesuppliesuk.com
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Re: where to buy.... + rant

Postby Craig Salisbury » 13 Dec 2020, 18:07

I have no issue if i can get round it.

I recently bought some precat morrells from wood-finishes, and when i asked for the thinners...i got the trade noise, I asked nicely and all was delivered. Their line was that its morrells that set who they can sell what to. It boggles the mind somewhat.
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Re: where to buy.... + rant

Postby AndyT » 13 Dec 2020, 18:13

Not selling the thinners could be a regulatory thing. Regs are designed to protect even foolish consumers, so there are many products that can't be sold to ordinary people, because they are toxic or dangerous or need special handling. But they are needed by makers of stuff, who have a legal duty to train and equip their staff.
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Re: where to buy.... + rant

Postby Craig Salisbury » 13 Dec 2020, 18:16

AndyT wrote:Not selling the thinners could be a regulatory thing. Regs are designed to protect even foolish consumers, so there are many products that can't be sold to ordinary people, because they are toxic or dangerous or need special handling. But they are needed by makers of stuff, who have a legal duty to train and equip their staff.


well that clear up that part (for me anyway) :) cheers.
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Re: where to buy.... + rant

Postby Andyp » 13 Dec 2020, 18:18

It is bad here too. Without a SIRET no that confirms registered company status you are restricted to the sheds for just about everything and sky high prices elsewhere.

Tradesmen here only pay 5% VAT, it's 20% for consumers. It is done to encourage small businesses and for consumers to get their projects done by professionals, yeah right!
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Re: where to buy.... + rant

Postby Lons » 13 Dec 2020, 19:45

Most of it has been said already and I've been on all sides of the fence across several businesses

As a wholesaler, distributor of semi finished plastics, Dexion, graphic and display products as well as Tools and machinery around 97% of our business came via trade accounts and that is what we were set up for with reps and telesales however we also had a trade counter and didn't turn away retail sales however the higher margin we got from retail was far far outweighed by the hassle and cost of obtaining and servicing those sales so much so that in the last business I managed I stopped it completely.

Trade sales are quick for several reasons, they usually know what they want and time costs them money, there are also relationships formed so that if things go wrong on either side it's in the interest of both parties to sort it as quickly as possible. The merchant needs volume sales, the tradesman needs reliable product and service. Compare that with the average DIYer who often doesn't know what he's doing and is there for advice as much as a purchase so the time spent with him is out of proportion to the sale value and the staff member while dealing with him is not able to service his regular and important customers either by 'phone or at the counter where they are likely waiting frustrated behind the guy who can't make a decision.

Having a building business in later years I was one of those often frustrated and now while I still can buy many products trade due to contacts and relationships I'm in the DIY category for other things. There are ways to get around the trade issue with many companies where a quiet word with the manager to show you aren't a plonker and about to spend a decent amount or regular purchases can often work.

I'm not for one second saying the good members on here are as described above but the majority of dIYers are in my experience.

Corian's decision has bu**er all to do with reputation of fitting and it's easy to work and install which is why they surround it in mystery, it's a company decision purely to keep the product exclusive and make profit for themselves and registered fitters by keeping prices at a premium. I refused to pay for the courses as the cost in time and fees wasn't worth it to me and I still managed to get Corian through contacts however there are other solid surface worktops that are easier to get, one of them being Karonia Mistral which I used a lot though I did have an account to get the best discounts.

Howdens depend on their list of installers for sales and that's why they offer a design service on behalf of those fitters, it would need a change of direction to sell direct and be seen as competing with their own customers. That said they lose the DIY kitchen installations though with a bit of asking around it isn't difficult to find someone who is happy to get a kitchen for you through their account for some beer tokens and again an approach to a branch manager can work as well as long as he or she doesn't see a conflict.
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Re: where to buy.... + rant

Postby MJ80 » 13 Dec 2020, 21:36

Corian isn't steeped in mystery. It is purely down to the warrenty on the finished item to the consumer. It's one of the big major selling points. I did my fabrication training with them and at the time they were the main player. I think the patent expired and the other companies were ready to get involved and we're happy to supply a wider audience. Having been trained by them no other supplier argued or pushed the training again. Either way I'm glad I did it, it paid for itself many times over.
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Re: where to buy.... + rant

Postby Lons » 14 Dec 2020, 01:28

MJ80 wrote:Corian isn't steeped in mystery. It is purely down to the warrenty on the finished item to the consumer. It's one of the big major selling points. I did my fabrication training with them and at the time they were the main player. I think the patent expired and the other companies were ready to get involved and we're happy to supply a wider audience. Having been trained by them no other supplier argued or pushed the training again. Either way I'm glad I did it, it paid for itself many times over.


I'm happy it worked for you and I know several fitters who got business through the Corian distribution system, I wasn't intending to decry the training just saying it wasn't worth it in my case as while I fitted a number of Corian tops I just switched my business to a different product and was busy enough so never actively searching for work.
To be fair once others started to produce similar products there could only be one reason not to supply and that is to maintain exclusivity. As I said I refused the training but have installed enough solid surface kitchens to state that it's a pretty simple operation and like other companies there is no reason to extend the warranty further than at supply and for defective material after which it's the responsibility of the installer. I'd go so far that which a little research and practice any competent woodworker with a router, RAS and other suitable tools could very quickly manage a good installation. The hire or purchase of a pair of Bessey PS55 or similar worktop clamps which reminds me I must dig out mine ( Mistral version ) and sell them on.

Promoting exclusivity is a well proven and widely practiced method of maintaining high prices and profit across most industries.

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