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5 minute recharge

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5 minute recharge

Postby Woodster » 19 Jan 2021, 12:41

Early days for this tech but it shows we’re moving in the right direction. We just need more investment in charging stations.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ging-times

A five minute recharge on my Mikita would be good! :D
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Re: 5 minute recharge

Postby Mike G » 19 Jan 2021, 12:52

I've been following this for a while. The focus in battery research in the last few years has very much been on faster charging times rather than increased capacity/ energy density (range). The big breakthroughs on the horizon include solid state batteries, which shouldn't deteriorate over time.
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Re: 5 minute recharge

Postby sunnybob » 19 Jan 2021, 13:55

A few hours ago I was listening to the radio and a man was complaining about his battery car. He started with almost 300 miles in the system. but it was night and cold, so he had headlights, heating and all the rest on. He said for every 70 miles he drove the range dropped by a 100.
I have no interest either way, I will be long gone before battery cars come down to my price range. 8-)
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Re: 5 minute recharge

Postby Mike G » 19 Jan 2021, 14:03

sunnybob wrote:A few hours ago I was listening to the radio and a man was complaining about his battery car. He started with almost 300 miles in the system. but it was night and cold, so he had headlights, heating and all the rest on. He said for every 70 miles he drove the range dropped by a 100.......


So, a 210 miles range. That's 3-1/2 hours driving, so time for a break. Five minutes to recharge, have a pee and a drink, and he's on his way again. I can't see the issue.
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Re: 5 minute recharge

Postby Woodster » 19 Jan 2021, 14:42

No, I can’t either. These days I can’t drive more than 100 miles before I need a break. The Highway Code says you should take a break of at least 15 minutes for every 2 hours driving. In the UK that’s a maximum of 140miles on a motorway but could be well under that on ordinary roads.
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Re: 5 minute recharge

Postby sunnybob » 19 Jan 2021, 15:13

I appear to have mis worded that. He said the battery life reduced by the 70 he had driven, PLUS another 100.
70 travelled, range drops by 170.
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Re: 5 minute recharge

Postby novocaine » 19 Jan 2021, 15:15

Most very large corporations have rules on driving for business, they typically use the 2 hours window but others go above this to state 2 hours maximum driving, if you exceed this you should find another way.

once, long ago, in a job far far away I'd regularly drive 7-9 hours in a day with only stops being to collect moderately explosive liquids, and I wouldn't bat an eyelid, the mileage made it worth while :) .
now, with kids and getting slowly closer to having wrinkles on my baby like features I find 2 hours is enough, that and I realised that I rather hate driving.
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Re: 5 minute recharge

Postby Mike G » 19 Jan 2021, 15:18

sunnybob wrote:I appear to have mis worded that. He said the battery life reduced by the 70 he had driven, PLUS another 100.
70 travelled, range drops by 170.


Then I suggest his batteries are knackered.
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Re: 5 minute recharge

Postby AJB Temple » 19 Jan 2021, 15:30

I agree - knackered batteries. I have a battery car. At full charge (rather than 90% save the battery charge) range is about 10% to 15% worse in winter when cold, versus summer. That is with air con, heated seats, heated steering wheel, satnav and radio in use.

Recent reports suggests that batteries degenerate far more slowly than originally expected, as long as sensible charging and capacity routines are followed. The car (mine anyway) warns you of this on the dash and in the app.
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Re: 5 minute recharge

Postby Pete Maddex » 20 Jan 2021, 15:20

Some scary amounts of power flowing about in a 5 minuit recharge, I will let you connect up and throw the switch.

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Re: 5 minute recharge

Postby Lons » 20 Jan 2021, 19:31

I have no desire to buy an electric car until they sort out battery technology and get all the support structure in place, also they need to decrease in price substantially but I've said that all before and a fast 5 minute charge to me doesn't seem to be a solution except for emergency top up as I understand it - at the minute - fast charging reduces battery life, hopefully that can be solved with new generation battery technology. If that's wrong then feel free to refute it of course as I'm only going off what I've read.
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Re: 5 minute recharge

Postby Woodster » 20 Jan 2021, 22:00

Lons wrote:hopefully that can be solved with new generation battery technology. If that's wrong then feel free to refute it of course as I'm only going off what I've read.


That’s what the article is about. :eusa-doh:

“I think such fast-charging batteries will be available to the mass market in three years,” said Prof Chao-Yang Wang, at the Battery and Energy Storage Technology Center at Pennsylvania State University in the US. “They will not be more expensive; in fact, they allow automakers to downsize the onboard battery while still eliminating range anxiety, thereby dramatically cutting down the vehicle battery cost.”
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Re: 5 minute recharge

Postby RogerS » 20 Jan 2021, 22:26

Lons wrote:... get all the support structure in place, .....


Come drive Westwards. We have two charging points in the Hexham car park. I've never seen any car use them nor anyone else I contacted via the local Facebook page.

Or a bit further West and come to Haltwhistle railway station where they have a tiny carpark..room for maybe 10 cars tops. They removed three of those to convert to an electric charging bay. Never seen anyone use that. Nor have the people on the local Facebook page.

I think it's called progress.
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Re: 5 minute recharge

Postby Lons » 20 Jan 2021, 23:48

Woodster wrote:
Lons wrote:hopefully that can be solved with new generation battery technology. If that's wrong then feel free to refute it of course as I'm only going off what I've read.


That’s what the article is about. :eusa-doh:

“I think such fast-charging batteries will be available to the mass market in three years,” said Prof Chao-Yang Wang, at the Battery and Energy Storage Technology Center at Pennsylvania State University in the US. “They will not be more expensive; in fact, they allow automakers to downsize the onboard battery while still eliminating range anxiety, thereby dramatically cutting down the vehicle battery cost.”



:eusa-doh: back at you woodster, it's not proven technology yet just early day projections with prototypes being developed, saying that new battery technology must not reduce battery life through fast charging any more than existing technology doesn't answer the question yet. Until facts are produced that fast charging doesn't shorten battery life my opinion remains the same so I wait to be convinced.

We don't have the same opinion on BEVs at the minute as you well know so we'll need to leave it at that as I'm certainly not going to argue with you on TWH2, there's another place that happens. ;)
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Re: 5 minute recharge

Postby Woodster » 21 Jan 2021, 11:48

Rather than upsetting yourself you really should have just read the article.
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Re: 5 minute recharge

Postby Guineafowl21 » 21 Jan 2021, 15:20

Charging a 75 kWh battery in 5 minutes would require 75,000/(5/60) = 900 kW of power, or enough to run nine houses.

On single phase, that would draw 900,000/240 = about 3,750 A

On three phase, about 1,200 Amps per phase.

All assuming 100% efficiency. Staggering figures - I wonder how they will manage them?
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Re: 5 minute recharge

Postby 9fingers » 21 Jan 2021, 15:46

Guineafowl21 wrote:Charging a 75 kWh battery in 5 minutes would require 75,000/(5/60) = 900 kW of power, or enough to run nine houses.

On single phase, that would draw 900,000/240 = about 3,750 A

On three phase, about 1,200 Amps per phase.

All assuming 100% efficiency. Staggering figures - I wonder how they will manage them?


Quite agree and anything much less than 100% conversion efficiency as a fraction of the 900kW will produce huge amounts of heat in the battery to be managed.

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Re: 5 minute recharge

Postby Guineafowl21 » 21 Jan 2021, 16:28

9fingers wrote:
Guineafowl21 wrote:Charging a 75 kWh battery in 5 minutes would require 75,000/(5/60) = 900 kW of power, or enough to run nine houses.

On single phase, that would draw 900,000/240 = about 3,750 A

On three phase, about 1,200 Amps per phase.

All assuming 100% efficiency. Staggering figures - I wonder how they will manage them?


Quite agree and anything much less than 100% conversion efficiency as a fraction of the 900kW will produce huge amounts of heat in the battery to be managed.

Bob

I missed this bit: “Using available charging infrastructure, StoreDot is aiming to deliver 100 miles of charge to a car battery in five minutes in 2025.”

100 miles of range needs about 35 kWh, so the figures can be halved. Still enormous though.

How this is to be done “using available charging infrastructure” remains to be seen. A typical service station with 10 ‘pumps’ would need its own brand new substation.
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Re: 5 minute recharge

Postby AJB Temple » 21 Jan 2021, 17:39

It's pretty close to being here now (several around London for example). Tesla V3 superchargers can deliver a peak rate of 250Kw / hour. These are gradually being rolled out to extend the Tesla network. It will give a model 3 about 75 miles range top up in 5 minutes.

I've been running an electric model X for 3 years and the vast majority of my round trips are well under 70 miles, and I typically start every journey with a range of 300 miles shown (and realistically 250 without starting to feel anxious about range :lol: )
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Re: 5 minute recharge

Postby Lons » 21 Jan 2021, 19:49

Woodster wrote:Rather than upsetting yourself you really should have just read the article.


I'm not in the slightest upset Woodster and I had already read the article for what it's worth. It would take a great deal more than that to upset me :lol:

Have you put your hand in your pocket yet for a BEV? I'd be a lot more interested if you were posting information from personal experience rather than articles from The Guardian. :eusa-think:
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Re: 5 minute recharge

Postby Guineafowl21 » 21 Jan 2021, 20:04

AJB Temple wrote:It's pretty close to being here now (several around London for example). Tesla V3 superchargers can deliver a peak rate of 250Kw / hour. These are gradually being rolled out to extend the Tesla network. It will give a model 3 about 75 miles range top up in 5 minutes.

I've been running an electric model X for 3 years and the vast majority of my round trips are well under 70 miles, and I typically start every journey with a range of 300 miles shown (and realistically 250 without starting to feel anxious about range :lol: )

Watch your units there, Mr Temple :eusa-naughty: It’s either a power rate of 250 kW, or an energy amount of 250 kWh.

Power is to energy as speed is to distance. A lot of (most?) newspaper articles get this wrong, so you’re in good company.

Don’t get me wrong - I’m not an electric car naysayer. I’ve no doubt they can build a charger that delivers such power, it’s what will deliver that power to the charger in the first place. And handling such enormous currents presents its own challenges and dangers, not least the fact that heating losses go up with the square of the current, so delivering 10x the current loses 100x more heat.
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Re: 5 minute recharge

Postby AJB Temple » 21 Jan 2021, 20:50

Well GF, irrespective of the unit values, of which I confess ignorance, I do know that for a user a big number is better. So my home charger runs overnight during cheap rate electricity. The original superchargers were around 70 or 80 K whatevers, and now we are starting to see 250.

I don't care how they build the infrastructure to get the power there, but it has got to be easier than building a gas network to supply every house in towns and cities.

We are currently living through the early stages of the dying years of the internal combustion engine and probably motoring freedom too. The only question is will death be fast or slow.
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Re: 5 minute recharge

Postby Guineafowl21 » 21 Jan 2021, 21:15

AJB Temple wrote:I do know that for a user a big number is better. So my home charger runs overnight during cheap rate electricity.


That’s the interesting bit for me. Charging your car overnight at the trough of demand makes sense, and is feasible: see this excellent video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37M7ffjro3I

Banging in a ‘village-worth’ of power in a 5 minute stop is a world away from that. And it won’t be all at night. I’ve seen these new batteries described in two or three places, none of which addressed the upheaval of the grid that will have to happen.

*** I got the figure wrong in my earlier post - 900 kW or that order would typically supply 90 houses, nominally at 10 kW each, or nearly 40 houses maxed out at 100 A. To charge one car.
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Re: 5 minute recharge

Postby RogerS » 21 Jan 2021, 22:58

Guineafowl21 wrote:....

*** I got the figure wrong in my earlier post - 900 kW or that order would typically supply 90 houses, nominally at 10 kW each, or nearly 40 houses maxed out at 100 A. To charge one car.


What happens when all those 90 houses also have an electric car with a Super-Battery ?

Is this the start of Electro-Ponzi ? :lol:
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Re: 5 minute recharge

Postby AJB Temple » 21 Jan 2021, 23:53

No. The future is auto drive with no driver intervention. Speeds and proximity controlled. Cars can be called pods from some nearby call up pool, or shared. Rented as needed as cars are idle 90% of the time.
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