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Small workshop

Roll up, roll up. Here you will find everything from new workshop designs, through builds to completed workshop tours. All magnificently overseen by our own Mike G and his tremendously thorough 'Shed' design and generous advice.

Re: Small workshop

Postby MY63 » 07 Dec 2018, 08:08

The fact that the over hang carries no weight makes things clearer to me I was having difficulty working out that junction. How deep should the opening (birdsmouth) be in the rafter was a question I was going to ask but if that is where the weight is transferred then I guess it will be the dimension of the wall plate.
Allowing maximum contact and weight transfer.
I am trying to find drawings I have previously seen showing this type of roof detail.
Thanks your help is appreciated :)
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Re: Small workshop

Postby RogerS » 07 Dec 2018, 08:27

Does this help ?
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Re: Small workshop

Postby MY63 » 07 Dec 2018, 09:06

Thanks Roger that explains a lot. Although its minimum angle is 3 degrees with a 209 mm fall from ridge to wall. Should I consider revising my plan or will a 100mm fall be sufficient ?
I understand the junction of the rafter and the wall plate much better now.
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Re: Small workshop

Postby RogerS » 07 Dec 2018, 09:12

MY63 wrote:Thanks Roger that explains a lot. Although its minimum angle is 3 degrees with a 209 mm fall from ridge to wall. Should I consider revising my plan or will a 100mm fall be sufficient ?
I understand the junction of the rafter and the wall plate much better now.


Afraid I can't really advise on that...not my area of expertise.
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Re: Small workshop

Postby Mike G » 07 Dec 2018, 09:37

9fingers wrote:Yes that is what I'm visualising.

Scaling off your drawing it looks like the rafters are inclined by 50-75mm along their length of about 1.3-1.4 m
Putting in a rafter as well would likely mean the top of the rafter would be height than the rafter.
Drawing out a detail section should show the problem.

Several bolts per rafter pair with serrated lock washers in between the rafters should be plenty strong enough and the decking and ceiling OSB should hold the rafter pairs at the rigth spacing making the ridge board redundant.
I'd only suggest this for such a low pitch which gives lots of overlap area in combination with such short rafters for your 2.4 m width.

Bob


I'm going to disagree with Bob here for about the first time in history. The outward forces on the wall plates from a roof at such a low pitch are great than from a roof with a steeper pitch. The idea of just making a strong junction at the ridge simply isn't good enough, I'm afraid. (I'll also add that toothed connectors are a really bad idea, and can actually weaken a joint, rather than strengthen it......but that's just an aside).

Having said that, there are a couple of simple solutions. Either put in a structural ridge, and with a 3.6m long workshop that could be just a 150x50, or put in one or two ties. These don't have to be in the form of bits of wood, and they don't have to be at wall plate level, but can be up to one third of the way up the rafters. You could use fencing wire and a cheap turnbuckle, for instance, or a piece of universal banding. There is another way, too, which is to have a really beefy wall plate and corner plates to resist the outward thrust of the roof, but that is probably the least practical option.

If it were me, working with that section, I would simply put in a 6x2 ridge beam.
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Re: Small workshop

Postby Mike G » 07 Dec 2018, 09:39

MY63 wrote:Thanks Roger that explains a lot. Although its minimum angle is 3 degrees with a 209 mm fall from ridge to wall. Should I consider revising my plan or will a 100mm fall be sufficient ?
I understand the junction of the rafter and the wall plate much better now.


100mm fall is fine.
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Re: Small workshop

Postby Mike G » 07 Dec 2018, 09:41

MY63 wrote:The fact that the over hang carries no weight makes things clearer to me I was having difficulty working out that junction. How deep should the opening (birdsmouth) be in the rafter was a question I was going to ask but if that is where the weight is transferred then I guess it will be the dimension of the wall plate.
Allowing maximum contact and weight transfer.
I am trying to find drawings I have previously seen showing this type of roof detail.
Thanks your help is appreciated :)


Don't overthink this. There is no weight on this roof, and you could (but shouldn't) get away without a birdsmouth at all. The only time this roof is going to be under any significant downward pressure is when you are up there putting the EPDM down. Most of the time, the biggest force this roof will be resisting is upwards pressure from wind.
Last edited by Mike G on 07 Dec 2018, 09:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Small workshop

Postby Mike G » 07 Dec 2018, 09:45

I have no idea if Sam's PM was telling you not to worry too much about the structure here because this is a tiny roof with plenty big enough timbers......but if it was, he's right. :lol:
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Re: Small workshop

Postby 9fingers » 07 Dec 2018, 10:43

Mike,
I was half expecting you to chip in at some stage and favour a classic design. :D
My thinking (however erroneous :lol: ) was that such a narrow roof ( 2.4m) with low pitch could almost be achieved with a single rafter say 200 x50 full width with tapers cut on it giving 200 height in the middle and 150 at the eaves. A bit wasteful of timber maybe. That would have zero outward force on the walls.

Next best would be to join and pair of 1.2 m 150 x 50 in the middle to give the slight fall. The overlap would be huge between the two parts allowing 3-4 bolts well spaced. Again I would suggest very little outward force on the walls.

In fact having sketched the second version out, the overlap of a pair of 150 x50 is so huge that it is even more wasteful than cutting a pitch on a single 200 x50.

So my method would be just that but lets not fall out over it :lol:

Sorry Michael you will have to toss a coin to decide between pragmatism and classical professional approach :lol:

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Re: Small workshop

Postby SamQ aka Ah! Q! » 07 Dec 2018, 11:13

I have no idea if Sam's PM was telling you ...


Nah, don't have the expertise or experience, Mike. T'was an off-topic, tangential thought wot I had, so kept it in a PM rather than obstruct this topic.

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Re: Small workshop

Postby Mike G » 07 Dec 2018, 11:49

The other approach, which may actually be the easiest, is to have one principle truss in the middle (it would require to be a complete truss, with tie, or it could be two triangles cut out of ply), and use purlins (timbers running longitudinally along the roof). The could be 2x2s. You'd then have to insulate below these, and you'd need vents at each gable to allow airflow along the length of the roof between the purlins.
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Re: Small workshop

Postby MY63 » 07 Dec 2018, 15:00

You know one of the problems with forums is it is very easy to pick up the language and terms without having the background knowledge to go with it.
I need the easiest to build even after I recover from surgery I have limited use of my right hand. I can get help with heavy stuff but I prefer to work on my own.
I think it would be easier for me to go with the ridge beam my thinking is I can make the front and rear sections with their respective rafters in place. This will allow me to slot the ridge beam in place and then add the other rafters. Possibly using a strip of wood along the bottom of the ridge beam to support them as I fit them.

My intention for this workshop is to make and restore leather goods most of which will be done standing up I am 1.8 m tall is there any way to get a little more headroom.

Thanks
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Re: Small workshop

Postby RogerS » 07 Dec 2018, 15:06

Mike G has a very elegant method of building rooves such as the one you're doing and he posted about it in his workshop thread IIRC but damned if I can find it.

EDIT: Found it. Bottom of page 6

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=198&start=125
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Re: Small workshop

Postby 9fingers » 07 Dec 2018, 15:38

RogerS wrote:Mike G has a very elegant method of building rooves such as the one you're doing and he posted about it in his workshop thread IIRC but damned if I can find it.



When I built my cut roof for the workshop 10 x 3m, I made a couple of jury rigs to support things in roughly the right place and then went up a ladder to finally adjust them. My ridge board had to be in three pieces due to length so i used temp rafters to hold it in place before filling in with real rafters. Fixing with screws is much more forgiving than nails as you can adjust for cock-ups.

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Re: Small workshop

Postby Mike G » 07 Dec 2018, 15:53

It looks to me like this ridge beam would be a matter of a few inches above the wall plate. Simply rest on some offcuts in roughly the right location.
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Re: Small workshop

Postby Malc2098 » 07 Dec 2018, 20:03

9fingers wrote:
RogerS wrote:Mike G has a very elegant method of building rooves such as the one you're doing and he posted about it in his workshop thread IIRC but damned if I can find it.



When I built my cut roof for the workshop 10 x 3m, I made a couple of jury rigs to support things in roughly the right place and then went up a ladder to finally adjust them. My ridge board had to be in three pieces due to length so i used temp rafters to hold it in place before filling in with real rafters. Fixing with screws is much more forgiving than nails as you can adjust for cock-ups.

Bob


:text-+1: about the screws.....and torx heads.....and an impact driver......drives them in well.... and drives them out well if you make a mistake.
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Re: Small workshop

Postby MY63 » 07 Dec 2018, 23:05

RogerS wrote:Mike G has a very elegant method of building rooves such as the one you're doing and he posted about it in his workshop thread IIRC but damned if I can find it.

EDIT: Found it. Bottom of page 6

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=198&start=125


Yes that is where I saw it too I must have re read that page many times
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Re: Small workshop

Postby MY63 » 15 Dec 2018, 22:03

I don’t know if I have explained my idea clearly I was thinking of making the whole end frame as one piece rafters and all. This would allow me to put all four walls up together and then be able to slot the ridge beam in place when I have help to hand.

As I have had time on my hands so to speak recovery is going really well btw I was thinking about the inside of my workshop (like saying that) I want the bottom end to be a large marking out cutting area full width and as deep as possible 1200 mm with maybe a cutout so I can reach the back wall when necessary. Leaving 2400 mm for everything else I don’t need lots of room in the centre but would like benches either side one for leather and the other for wood. Do I need a solid wood bench for making boxes and light work I currently use a workmate outside ?
I was looking for ideas on Axminster s web site I would like to have one of their aluminium channels set into the leather working side so I can make a straight edge to run along it to help cutting.
I have also thought about using their dog system to do the same on the woodworking side but their guide system is £150 for two rulers with holes and a jig to help you drill straight. Then they sell a predrilled bench top for £100 please tell me if I am missing something essential.
Do I need solid or special timber for dogs or holdfasts to work..
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Re: Small workshop

Postby Rod » 16 Dec 2018, 01:09

You can buy CNC versions of the top much cheaper on the bay I believe.
Dogs can be made from 20mm aluminium or wood dowelling.

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Re: Small workshop

Postby RogerS » 16 Dec 2018, 08:13

Like this one, for example

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MFT-3-Top-Fo ... :rk:2:pf:0

£45 including six dogs.

In fact, Michael, look out for a secondhand Festool MFT (multi-function table). This was my first bench after, like you, using my Workmate.

Image

As you can see in the photo, I subsequently modified it to include a router - you can ignore that stupidly large Incra fence that I bought in a serious error of judgement !

It's also collapsible.
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Re: Small workshop

Postby MY63 » 16 Dec 2018, 11:00

Thanks Rod and Roger.
The cnc 'd version from ebay will do fine for me although it may be a little wider than I need I am going to send them a message about size. As soon as I decide what size I require..
Is this moisture resistant mdf suitable for all the bench tops with a suitable frame work underneath or is plywood a more cost effective option again with a frame work supporting it. would 75 mm x 50 mm be sufficient. On the wood working side I have a compound mitre saw and a combined disc belt sander.

I some times make moulds for leather and I struggle with a coping saw to cut the curved part they are made of three pieces of 9 mm plywood glued together. The mould in the picture is 100 mm x 200 mm

Image2018-11-08_04-12-29 by my0771, on Flickr

I don't make these very often maybe once or twice a year the leather is wet when it goes in and dry when it comes out so the plywood absorbs most of the moisture. When I force the two parts apart they often disintegrate.

Now I have said all of that what machine would help me to make these I was thinking of a band saw or maybe a scroll saw ? help as ever appreciated.
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Re: Small workshop

Postby 9fingers » 16 Dec 2018, 12:01

MRMDF with further sealing coats of thinned varnish should be fine for benchtops and provide protection against minor contact with wet leather as well as being easier to deal with glue residue. The same goes for ply.
Seal both top and bottom and edges for best stability. MRMDF is Resistant to and not Proof against moisture absorption. 75x50 frame should be fine too- 75mm vertical under the bench and front to back supports every 600mm or so. consider 50-75mm overhang of the bench surface over the frame for ease of clamping.

I picked up a job lot of leftover kitchen worktops. 40mm thick with formica for some of my bench tops which works well too.

I would think that 27mm is at the upper limit of most scroll saws and that with your box work too, a bandsaw as big as you can fit in - on wheels maybe, would be the most versatile tool for your work. Maybe something that can tension a 3/4 blade would enable veneer cutting for boxes too.

hth
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Re: Small workshop

Postby MY63 » 16 Dec 2018, 13:00

I have to be honest I would be at the budget end for either bandsaw or scroll saw these are my first options
Axminster have a store near me now so I would prefer to buy it from them unless there is a better option that is recommended.

https://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-c ... saw-105092
Not knowing anything about bandsaws could this cope with the tight radius required for my moulds I take it a thinner blade might be an option.

https://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-c ... saw-105250

I mentioned the scroll saw as it claims a 50 mm depth of cut but i understand what they claim and what is actually possible.

I am going to order the bench top tomorrow as I can cut it down myself if needed and I can rig it up tempoary for building the shop.

I was planning on edgeing the ply with a hardwood to give me a good edge to work to. I also need to fit a piece of granite and glass into the leatherworing side.
Kitchen wortops are a great idea 640 mm will leave me space to turn around in the middle.
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Re: Small workshop

Postby MY63 » 16 Dec 2018, 14:11

Just in case anyone is curious about what the moulds are for this is a sample of what I make. It is an armoured case with a hidden Kydex lining for strength and lined in suede. The fountain pens in the picture are hand made in Japan by Danitrio this model is called the Genkai they take months to make.
These are not my pens :D

ImageIMG_2728 by my0771, on Flickr

Googling these pens for prices is not for the faint of heart and is best done seated although they could be described as mid price when compared others. :D
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Small workshop

Postby Rod » 16 Dec 2018, 14:38

I used to work with someone who collected pens like that. He would never tell us the prices.

Nice case.

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