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Planning hypothetic future workshop.

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Planning hypothetic future workshop.

Postby heimlaga » 26 Sep 2020, 20:50

I currently share the workshop with another person. He supplies the space and I supply the machines.
Anyway it he plant to withdraw in a couple of years and I want a workshop closer to home.

I have no money for such a build at the moment but the very severe storm we had two weeks ago felled some 50 timber trees in our woodland parcel and it is becoming clear that I am not going to need all that timber for current projects.
This led to the idea of having the surplus timber sawn to scantlings suitable for a possible workshop build. Which implies that I need to have some ideas of size and shape so I get usable lengths and dimensions without wasting too much timber.

So....... what would a cheaply built rather spartan free standing part time joinery workshop in the countryside be like?
Oppinions please!

The machines that I have and would like to fit in are:
-Stenberg KEV 600. A 600mm planer/thicknesser combination with 3,7kw table saw and 2,2 kw spindle moulder.
-E.V.Beronius 600mm bandsaw
-Haffner hinge and lock mortiser.
-Langzauner stroke sander.
-l'Invincibile T160 spindle moulder
-Solberga lathe
-Naula hollow chisel mortiser.
-Valmet drill press
-Cyklone dust collector to Bill Pentz specifications.
-Cirkular mitre saw
-And of cause a full size workbench and preferably some sort of assembly table.

Still missing from the line up beacause I don't own one yet:
-A better sliding table saw. Not the full size variety but let's say an eqivalent to Wadkin PK or maybe a little bigger.

The 24" cirkular rip saw does not need to be in the heated area. It could live under a lean to outdoors because it would mainly be used to break up air dried construction timber anyway.

How large should the workshop be?
I prefere to minimize the heated space but there is no real alternative to insulation and heating. You get frostbite in an instant when working on a cast iron machine at below -25 and the grease in the bearings gets too thick to lubricate at approximately -20.
How high should the ceiling be as a minimum to comfortably fit a 1,93 metres tall man with dust collection ducting overhead?

I have a Batchelors degree in structural engineering and a number of years work experience as a carpenter so the structural design and the construction job itself are no problem.
The problem is to know what I need at an absolute minimum!
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Re: Planning hypothetic future workshop.

Postby 9fingers » 26 Sep 2020, 21:24

Just picking one parameter, ceiling height, it can be helpful to be able to rotate a sheet of ply/mdf/osb etc corner to corner so maybe consider that to set your minimum height at least in one region of the shop.

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Re: Planning hypothetic future workshop.

Postby RogerS » 26 Sep 2020, 21:44

9fingers wrote:Just picking one parameter, ceiling height, it can be helpful to be able to rotate a sheet of ply/mdf/osb etc corner to corner so maybe consider that to set your minimum height at least in one region of the shop.

Bob



Mmm..I have a different take on that. Sheets of plywood etc are best dealt with on the floor. On top of a sheet of Kingspan and a tracksaw.

I'd also plan to have space for an assembly table.
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Re: Planning hypothetic future workshop.

Postby 9fingers » 26 Sep 2020, 21:54

RogerS wrote:
9fingers wrote:Just picking one parameter, ceiling height, it can be helpful to be able to rotate a sheet of ply/mdf/osb etc corner to corner so maybe consider that to set your minimum height at least in one region of the shop.

Bob



Mmm..I have a different take on that. Sheets of plywood etc are best dealt with on the floor. On top of a sheet of Kingspan and a tracksaw.

I'd also plan to have space for an assembly table.


Maybe but depends on how much floor space you have. I have virtually none.

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Re: Planning hypothetic future workshop.

Postby RogerS » 26 Sep 2020, 22:01

9fingers wrote:
RogerS wrote:
9fingers wrote:Just picking one parameter, ceiling height, it can be helpful to be able to rotate a sheet of ply/mdf/osb etc corner to corner so maybe consider that to set your minimum height at least in one region of the shop.

Bob



Mmm..I have a different take on that. Sheets of plywood etc are best dealt with on the floor. On top of a sheet of Kingspan and a tracksaw.

I'd also plan to have space for an assembly table.


Maybe but depends on how much floor space you have. I have virtually none.

Bob


But he's at the planning stage ! So in theory he could have as much floor space as he would like !
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Re: Planning hypothetic future workshop.

Postby 9fingers » 26 Sep 2020, 22:07

True but he was also trying to make as small as possible.

Really it is a pretty impossible question to give a comprehensive answer. Maybe a starting point would be to scale up from the space in the current workshop according to how well the layout works at the moment?

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Re: Planning hypothetic future workshop.

Postby Malc2098 » 26 Sep 2020, 22:10

With that amount of machinery, I would expect the base/flooring to be substantial to support all that.
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Re: Planning hypothetic future workshop.

Postby Mike G » 26 Sep 2020, 22:17

Rather than talking about the machines etc I think it is more useful to talk about the sort of projects that go on in the workshop. You need a very different sort of space if you are making boxes, or violins. or wooden spoons, compared with, say, fitted kitchens.

As for timber sizes..........your walls can be 100x50 for almost any size workshop you can imagine. Your roof timbers are going to be substantially bigger, and the bigger the span, the greater the dimensions of the rafters.

Another approach to the "how big should it be" question is to look at the space you are using at the moment, take out the part your partner uses, and ask yourself if the remainder is enough, too small, or too big. Once you've got a rough square metre-age worked out, the you can start doing basic sketch plans allocating the necessary space for each machine, space for wood storage, a finishing area, perhaps, a hand tool bench, an assembly bench.....whatever, and seeing if the space works.

Finally, if you can keep the span of the building less than about 5 metres it is a lot easier to build using standard timber sizes. If you can't you can't, and you'll need bigger bits of wood, but it's useful if you can.
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Re: Planning hypothetic future workshop.

Postby Woodster » 26 Sep 2020, 22:50

A trick I learnt from one of my old bosses was to draw out a plan of all the pieces of equipment to scale and cut them out. And then lay them out in the space available. In those days it was done with bits of paper or card but you can obviously do it digitally these days. That would be my starting point and give you a good idea of the best layout and also the size of the building required. All you need to start is to measure up all the equipment but allowing for any possible working envelope. Also think of Windows and doors and lighting positions etc.
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Re: Planning hypothetic future workshop.

Postby MJ80 » 27 Sep 2020, 07:54

My old workshop was 120 square meters with a 25 square meter annex I used as a spray shop. It worked really well with all the machines. It was about 10 meters wide.
The rear 10 meter wall had a full length run of cabs with the radial saw in the middle. P/T was parallel so I could work up to 5 meter lengths at a push through the the machine. Along the line wall was the spindle moulder and edgewater. Spindle moulder could be moved with pump truck if I had something odd or really long to do. Wide belt sander was in middle parallel to p/t. Big 3.2 Meter slider on opposite wall with bandsaw and drill press. Coffee spot and toilet also there. I'll send you a drawing, but I made everything in that space from windows to kitchens.....the real problem was moving things to the spray shop in bad weather.
Hope that helps.
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Re: Planning hypothetic future workshop.

Postby Andyp » 27 Sep 2020, 15:22

I’ve tried miserably with google translate to see what the vernacular style is for wooden outbuilding/workshop in your area.
As for size. What you will make in it is important so is planning ahead to what you might want to make in it in the future. I have an 8m x 3m barn only half of which I converted to a workshop. It was big enough for about 2 years.
I do not think therefore I do not am.

cheers
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Re: Planning hypothetic future workshop.

Postby heimlaga » 27 Sep 2020, 19:57

Thank you for your thoughts so far.

The plan is to make doors and windows and some occasional fitted cabinets and all sorts of custom joinery for house renovations. Maybe some occasional wooden boat repairs in the yard during the warmer half of the year. There is no money in furniture nor in gift shop stuff around here so that is not interesting.

I am thinking about a rectangular building with gabled roof. Vertical board and batten siding using sawn 7/8" boards on varying widths and full lenghts gets the most siding surface out of every log and saves the cost of having the siding planed. Stud frame made from full dimension sawn either 2x5 or 2x6 is strong and saves the cost of planing. Either factory made roof trusses on 90cm centers or some sort of purlin and rafter system supported by a pair of internal posts every 5 metres down the lenght of the building. It is not legal to build trusses with unstamped timber anymore.

Timber in lenghts over 9 metres present some problems. The local sawyer isn't able to saw logs over 9 metres and my log trailer takes at most 10 metres. Up to those measurements anything is possible.
Logs over 40cm in diametre at the butt end are rare and the available species is spruce.
So......... in my case the limits of commonly available timber aren't there.
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Re: Planning hypothetic future workshop.

Postby Mike G » 28 Sep 2020, 19:44

So do you think 50 or 60 square metres, or 250/260 sq m?
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Re: Planning hypothetic future workshop.

Postby heimlaga » 28 Sep 2020, 20:49

I really don't know yet...... as small as feasible for the work I plan to do. Preferably less than 100 square metres
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Re: Planning hypothetic future workshop.

Postby Mike G » 28 Sep 2020, 21:09

OK, so how about this for a plan. You list all your fixed machines and their footprint size. List also your bench size/s, and any specialist spaces such as spraying areas etc. I'll stick them on a scale drawing, PDF, which you can print out, cut out, and push around. I'll also draw buildings of various footprint sizes for you to push your cut outs around on. Then you can narrow down your choice by seeing what works, and what doesn't work.

I won't get chance to look at it before tomorrow evening, though.
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Re: Planning hypothetic future workshop.

Postby heimlaga » 01 Oct 2020, 19:06

Sounds great!

I am very busy at the moment but I will take the measurements as soon as I can.
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Re: Planning hypothetic future workshop.

Postby MJ80 » 02 Oct 2020, 07:44

I really likes the extra room for the big panel saw, it's not the footprint of the machine, it is the space for loading and swinging boards about as well. I have a board lifter/tilter that made life so much easier for using the saw on your own. On the outfeed side having another table with rollers is great for moving stacks of cut material about without having to stack them up all over the place. You could go smaller, but if you are holding stock or have a load of projects on the go then finding place for everything to sit can be a bit of a nightmare. Then again if you are not going to be doing a lot pf panel work you can compromise on the space you need. Look at the footprint of the machines with the longest lengths you are going to regularly use and give yourself some wiggle room.
My old workbench was pretty big, but it was ideal for assembling large items and also doubled up as an extra support for the edgebander (with a sheet clamped to the apron to bring it up to level) for doing the end of long panels. I ended up making a new one when I knew I was emigrating which was knock down and could handle the largest standard cabinet, it's about due now for a new top and potentially some drawers, which I really miss from its predecessor.
There was an office which was really useful, but I ended up taking the walls out as I got more machines and needed to extra space.
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Re: Planning hypothetic future workshop.

Postby AJB Temple » 02 Oct 2020, 21:41

Given you are in Finland, presumably keeping the space warm and the humidity fairly stable is a material factor? My experience of almost any building I have had is that I eventually wish it was bigger.
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Re: Planning hypothetic future workshop.

Postby heimlaga » 13 Nov 2020, 17:44

Of cause a workshop in Finland must be insulated and heated at least somewhat. There is a serious danger of loosing fingers to frostbite when working on cast iron machinery at below -10 celsius. At approximately -20 celsius the grease in the bearings stop working and working bare handed becomes pretty much impossible. At approximately -30 is becomes hard to keep your body temperature up if you are standing n one place for too long.
Moisture and condensation are also problematic.

The reason why this thread suddenly became abandoned is that I may get hold of a 7x20 metre one and a half storey log building that the owner wants gone. Let's see how things unfold.

Anyway I will be bucking the logs to 5 metre lenghts for vertical siding and between 3,5 and 6,5 metres for studs. Then they will be long enough for anything I may build.

If I get the log building I will also need 20 or so or so logs between 7,5 and 9 metres long and slabbed to 6 inch thickness with two sides round. In that case I will also need some sumpter beams to reinforce the ceiling. Let's say 11 metres long and 14 inches in diametre at the top. I do not want to risk wasting that amount of large timbers so I will let them grow until I need them.
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Re: Planning hypothetic future workshop.

Postby RogerS » 13 Nov 2020, 23:12

heimlaga wrote:.... so I will let them grow until I need them.


Love it :D :eusa-clap:

I can just see you looking at one of the trees and saying 'You're next" !
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Re: Planning hypothetic future workshop.

Postby StevieB » 14 Nov 2020, 10:29

I recall a story (possibly urban myth/internet legend) about a chap phoning up the Finnish navy and announcing the trees they had ordered planted 150 years ago for ship building were now ready for harvesting - where would they like them delivered and how would they be paying for them. Hope yours are a bit closer to felling than saplings :D
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Re: Planning hypothetic future workshop.

Postby heimlaga » 24 Feb 2021, 21:11

Now I have 8 tractor trailer loads of logs out of the woods with the 9th and last load being hauled out tomorrow. All windfallen trees from the storm i September. Ready to bring to the sawmill in spring.
That will get me at least a bit of the way.

The logs intended for siding are 5,1 metres long. Most of the rest are between 5 and 7 metres long though some are short down to 3 metres to cut out defects or damage.
Theese long lenghts will give me freedom to make decisions later.
We will see of I get the old log building.
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Re: Planning hypothetic future workshop.

Postby RogerS » 24 Feb 2021, 22:09

How do you manhandle those big logs ? Forklift ? MatPro?
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Re: Planning hypothetic future workshop.

Postby heimlaga » 25 Feb 2021, 07:45

A mid 1980-ies Normet winch that fits the three point hitch.
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Re: Planning hypothetic future workshop.

Postby droogs » 25 Feb 2021, 22:02

is that a massey 550?
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