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New shed/lean-to - Hinging doors...?

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New shed/lean-to - Hinging doors...?

Postby TrimTheKing » 27 Jan 2021, 12:06

Hi all (Mike G in particular)

I need to build a new shed at the end of the workshop to house all the garden 'stuff' and packing cases full of decorating equipment and the like that are cluttering up and hindering progressing in turning the workshop into and actual workshop.

It will be made out of scraps of cls and other construction timber I have lying around so won't all be the same size, but I can cut it down to be as close as.

My plan was to knock up a couple of basic frames, sole plate, studs, wall plate. Board out the inside with OSB, insulate the walls (I have celotex left over from workshop build so might as well use it), then feather edge the outside. I have loads of roof slates left over from the build so planned to put a small slate roof on

I have laid the following plinth walls onto the pre-laid slab and now need to get my sh!t together and do the easy bit of knocking this up. The slab is 6'x6' so you know the scale.

IMG_3520.JPG
Plinths
(590.43 KiB)


I have a few questions first:

1. I have a roll of DPC to put on top of the plinths but do I need to bed the sole plate onto a mortar bed (then DPC on top) or can the DPC go straight onto the bricks and sole plate on top?

2. What centres would the studs be, 14/16'?

3. Is the roof proposal okay? I've done it that way (badger's ass rough drawing below) to mirror the workshop roof angle.

4. Studs that touch the workshop wall will be bolted to the wall and the plan was to have the wall plate for the front to be double depth as it will sit over the doorway and in theory to tie the walls together. With that in mind and the small size can I get away without having to have any ties within the roof spans?

That's it for now, I'm sure more will come once these get pulled apart! :lol: :eusa-whistle:
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Re: New shed/lean-to

Postby Mike G » 27 Jan 2021, 12:33

I can't see a drawing, Mark.

The studs are fine at 600 centres*. You don't need insulation (unless you have a heat source), and your OSB can be on the outside this time (due to lack of heat, and lack of sweaty person working inside). Ideally, you bed the DPC on mortar, but it isn't critical. Strapping down to the plinth is critical, though. There's no need for ties in the roof, assuming you fix your "ridge beam" to the wall, but ideally you'd have a lintel rather than a doubled wall plate. You'll get away with the latter if there isn't enough height, but it might droop a little over the years.

*When setting out your studs, think about any racking you might want to fix to the wall. If 400 centres would suit that better, then go with that. It isn't necessary structurally.
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Re: New shed/lean-to

Postby Mike G » 27 Jan 2021, 12:51

I'll just strengthen the comment about a lintel. Your span looks to me to be about 1800- (215x2) = 1370. That's too much for just a doubled plate. Pop a pair of 4x2s on edge under your plate, supported on cripple studs (ie studs which come up to the underside of the lintel, rather than the underside of the plate).
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Re: New shed/lean-to

Postby TrimTheKing » 27 Jan 2021, 12:52

Bugger, knew I forgot something!!

Image

Thanks Mike. By lintel do you mean a 6x2 or similar?
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Re: New shed/lean-to

Postby TrimTheKing » 27 Jan 2021, 12:55

Mike G wrote:I'll just strengthen the comment about a lintel. Your span looks to me to be about 1800- (215x2) = 1370. That's too much for just a doubled plate. Pop a pair of 4x2s on edge under your plate, supported on cripple studs (ie studs which come up to the underside of the lintel, rather than the underside of the plate).


Thanks Mike, our posts crossed over.

I was thinking of making the whole frames, L shaped, in one piece then putting them in place. Is this okay or would you do the two pieces separately then bolt together?
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Re: New shed/lean-to

Postby TrimTheKing » 27 Jan 2021, 12:58

Also, I assume by having the OSB on the outside I would set the frames back on the brickwork so that the OSB is flush with the outside face of the brickwork, then batten and featheredge sticking out? Will that be too much of an overhang?
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Re: New shed/lean-to

Postby Mike G » 27 Jan 2021, 13:38

OK, I'd assumed a mono-pitch roof coming out from the existing wall and landing on a plate over the door opening. So forget everything I said about a lintel.....a doubled plate would be OK. There's no load on it.

So long as you tie the end truss properly* (the one over the door), and use a piece of 6x2 or bigger for the ridge, then you don't need any ties. You should put a little collar under the ridge beam on the end truss.

You can make your walls how you like, in terms of construction order etc. You can make them of 3x2s if you want everything to finish neatly at the plinth. And you can put the OSB on the inside if you want, it's just that you'd need some breather membrane on the outside if you were to do that.

*The easiest way is simply to use some galvanised strapping to fix the rafter feet securely to the plate at the birdsmouth, such that the rafters can't spread.
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Re: New shed/lean-to

Postby Mike G » 27 Jan 2021, 15:13

.......oh, and the plate at the gable end (over the door) must extend to the eaves at each end. In other words, the plates on the two sides finish inside the line of the gable plate.
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Re: New shed/lean-to

Postby TrimTheKing » 27 Jan 2021, 15:33

Thanks Mike

I think that means I need to revisit the one I’ve just made...

Image

Image

Does your advice mean I should chop the end off that frame by the thickness of another small frame at the front, with the wall plate of the front going to the outside edge of the side walls?

Only issue that will give me is making the doorway a bit lower than I’d planned as I’m trying to keep the overall height down, but it’s not the end of the world, I can always whack another plate on top of the side wall to take it up a bit.
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Re: New shed/lean-to

Postby Mike G » 27 Jan 2021, 17:32

You should be able to use that, with a bit of imagination. You just need a tie on the gable to go from eave to eave, so you could make your little return walls with the plate at the same level, erect it all, then sit your rafters on that, with a second timber (on edge) sitting on top of the plates, tying the rafter feet together.
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Re: New shed/lean-to

Postby TrimTheKing » 27 Jan 2021, 18:08

Thanks Mike

So what I have now is this.

Two matching side frames (albeit the plates on one being slightly wider timber but couldn't be bothered to rip it narrower, despite having just put a new blade in the bandsaw...

Challenge one, the left hand frame in the pic is twisted to buggery (you can see it is about 3-4 inches in at the top)! I'm hoping that by bolting the end to the workshop wall, strap it to the plinth and the loose end to the smaller front frames with the long ties that this will push it out to square. Is that okay, or is it too twisted and I should look to make another?

IMG_4234.JPG
Twisted frame
(564.74 KiB)


Second - The doorway is probably 3" too low meaning I have to duck. Not a massive issue as I am about 6'2" so for most people it's okay, but I did some tinkering to see if I could raise the doorway without having to raise the eaves, or raise them too much. Is that possible?

IMG_4235.JPG
Door height
(474.12 KiB)


I played around by adding an additional plate at both top and bottom and that got the door to a height where I had a good inch clearance, but obviously that pushes the eaves height up by the same. I wondered if there's a clever way to achieve the same clearance but without the additional wall height?

Otherwise my plan was to do as you can see in the pics, have a length of 6x2 going from the concrete floor level (I might add a threshold to lift it off the concrete) to the bottom of the door header to replicate the cripple studs and have two 4x2's nailed together going across and tying the two walls together as you suggested.

IMG_4233.JPG
(391.47 KiB)
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Re: New shed/lean-to

Postby Mike G » 27 Jan 2021, 18:32

You'll be able to pull that twist out, and the sheathing should help to hold everything where you want it.

You can raise the tie over the door to your required height, but you must tie everything together really securely at the corners. That includes strapping the rafter feet to the plate, and the side plates to the end plate. The raised tie should be bolted to the rafter, and MUST be in the lower third of the rafter.
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Re: New shed/lean-to

Postby TrimTheKing » 27 Jan 2021, 19:12

Thanks Mike

Just so I'm clear for tomorrow, I think this is what you're saying...

At the junction where the side frame meets the small front frames (I am going to cut the ends off and move the front stud back a little) this will need tying together (see diagram below). So the question is, how? Bolts, screws, nails or strapping?

IMG_4237.JPG
Corner detail
(260.96 KiB)


Next, I think this is what you're saying about the door height. From what I think I understand (see diagram below), I think I can build the two small front frames and tie them to the sides as discussed above (as well as screwing into the plinth at the bottom), extend the door frame/cripple studs up to the height I want the door, then lay a 6x2 across the top and bolt it through the last rafter (as long as I'm in the bottom 1/3 of the rafter, which it should be, I only need to steal 3 inches).

IMG_4238.JPG
Door detail
(299.01 KiB)


When we talk about galvanised strap at the rafter feet are we talking about this stuff... https://www.toolstation.com/galvanised- ... xYQAvD_BwE

Or these things... https://www.ironmongerydirect.co.uk/pro ... -20-204182

And I assume that's at the feet of every rafter?
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Re: New shed/lean-to

Postby Mike G » 27 Jan 2021, 19:33

The Toolstation one, Mark, and no, it only needs to be at the gable. The gable is holding up the end of the ridge beam, and having a solid ridge beam means there is no outward pressure on the remainder of the roof.* It's just that all the spreading forces of the roof are going to be concentrated on the two corners. The rest of your diagrams look right to me, although it is usual to have doubled-up studs at a door opening to prevent flexing with the weight of the door, and to stop a door slamming in the wind from doing any damage. You can have the inner stud extend down to the concrete (I usually leave them 5mm or so up) and the outer one sitting on the plate. Obviously they need to be well nailed (or screwed) to each other).

The corner junction of the plates at the top also needs strapping.

* Obviously you need to screw/ bolt your rafters at the other end of the roof to the workshop wall, so that the spreading forces of the roof at the workshop end are dealt with.
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Re: New shed/lean-to

Postby TrimTheKing » 27 Jan 2021, 20:00

Perfect, thanks Mike. I’ll get everything straight in my mind tonight and crack in tomorrow.

This will be a massive help in all kinds of ways to get this one off the list! :D
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Re: New shed/lean-to

Postby TrimTheKing » 29 Jan 2021, 17:52

Hi Mike

Walls built and erected now, screwed to the walls and braced across the front.

I'm using scraps up for making this as much as possible, so I've got a bit of 6x2 there that will make the ridge beam, and a joist hanger to hang it at the brick wall end.

IMG_4276.JPG
(637.64 KiB)


IMG_4277.JPG
(703.64 KiB)


IMG_4279.JPG
(679.64 KiB)


My next question, roofing...

1. What size rafters do I need/can I get away with? 6x2 required or 4x2 enough?
2. Keeping the roof pitch the same I did some very basic thinking that from the existing eave to the centre line of the shed the current roof rises by 6 brick courses, so my (possibly flawed) thinking was that the top of the ridge beam goes 6 courses above the shed eaves, then the rafter tops are level with the ridge beam top...? Then I though no, if I do that then when I cut the birdsmouth's then the angle will become slightly steeper, so how do I work it out so I don't balls it up?

3. In terms of supporting the 'floating' end of the ridge beam, will that just be held in place by the gable rafters and the tie above the door, or do I need to put a vertical support from the door tie up toe the ridge beam?

I think that's it for now, cheers.
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Re: New shed/lean-to

Postby Mike G » 29 Jan 2021, 20:48

I'd get rid of that hanger, Mark. It'll get in the way of the rafters which you are going to plant on the wall. Those planted rafters will support the ridge (again, add a collar just below the ridge).

4x2s are fine for the rafters.
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Re: New shed/lean-to

Postby TrimTheKing » 29 Jan 2021, 21:53

Mike G wrote:I'd get rid of that hanger, Mark. It'll get in the way of the rafters which you are going to plant on the wall. Those planted rafters will support the ridge (again, add a collar just below the ridge).

4x2s are fine for the rafters.


Okay will do.

Collar? Is that just a block of wood below the ridge to hold it up?
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Re: New shed/lean-to

Postby novocaine » 29 Jan 2021, 22:00

You know it wont be big enough don't you Mark?
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Re: New shed/lean-to

Postby jimmy s » 29 Jan 2021, 22:02

A collar is normally a tie fixed horizontally between the rafters. Google a raised collar roof and you should see an example.
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Re: New shed/lean-to

Postby Mike G » 29 Jan 2021, 22:38

A piece of 4 x1 would be fine, nailed across the face of the rafter directly under the underside of the ridge. Or a piece of ply.
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Re: New shed/lean-to

Postby TrimTheKing » 29 Jan 2021, 22:41

Mike G wrote:A piece of 4 x1 would be fine, nailed across the face of the rafter directly under the underside of the ridge. Or a piece of ply.


Got you, thanks. I thought it needed to be fixed to the wall so I’m with you now.
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Re: New shed/lean-to

Postby TrimTheKing » 29 Jan 2021, 22:42

novocaine wrote:You know it wont be big enough don't you Mark?


Absolutely! I’m becoming ever so slightly more pragmatic in my latter years and de used hat rather than trying to invent a TARDIS I’m just going to build it, fill it then worry about it later!
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Re: New shed/lean-to

Postby TrimTheKing » 29 Jan 2021, 22:43

jimmy s wrote:A collar is normally a tie fixed horizontally between the rafters. Google a raised collar roof and you should see an example.


Cheers Jimmy

Yep I’m good now. I thought it needed to be fixed to the wall but realise not now.
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Re: New shed/lean-to

Postby TrimTheKing » 01 Feb 2021, 09:16

Here’s the progress I made yesterday.

Old reclaimed pine rafter from a church refurb. I got a load of them a while back from a mate and repurposing some for the rafters in the shed. They are allegedly a good number of years old.

Image

Couple of rafters knocked up and a 6x2 braced in place to finesse the rafter lengths & angle, and confirm the ridge beam position.

Image

Ridge beam braced and clamped into position.

Image

Image

First and last rafter pair positioned, wall pair fixed to the workshop wall and front pair fixed to the ridge beam and strapped to the front wall and wall plate on the other side.

Image

Bracing removed to fit the ridge collar.

Image

Collar applied to front pair and bracing removed. We have roof! Well, obviously less the rest of the intermediate rafters.

Image

Image

Image

Hoping to get out there today and finish cutting the rafters (four more to cut) and get them fixed, but got lots of other things to do today as well.
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