• Hi all and welcome to TheWoodHaven2 brought into the 21st Century, kicking and screaming! We all have Alasdair to thank for the vast bulk of the heavy lifting to get us here, no more so than me because he's taken away a huge burden of responsibility from my shoulders and brought us to this new shiny home, with all your previous content (hopefully) still intact! Please peruse and feed back. There is still plenty to do, like changing the colour scheme, adding the banner graphic, tweaking the odd setting here and there so I have added a new thread in the 'Technical Issues, Bugs and Feature Requests' forum for you to add any issues you find, any missing settings or just anything you'd like to see added/removed from the feature set that Xenforo offers. We will get to everything over the coming weeks so please be patient, but add anything at all to the thread I mention above and we promise to get to them over the next few days/weeks/months. In the meantime, please enjoy!

Things have moved on in the last 8 years and KISS

Weeell... as Steve probably remembers, we have a semi-antique, "ATAG" brand of gas hob, with four fairly ordinary burners. The piezo igniter died years ago and I can't be bothered (it's potted - I hate that), so it's matches or a flame-on-a-pencil thingy.

It has two redeeming features: it still works (and will continue to in a power cut). Secondly, we have the most expensive energy prices on the planet (allegedly). When you do a proper conversion, joule-for-joule, gas here in the UK is roughly 1/4 the cost of electric energy.

That last, and the controllability of a gas ring mean we'll probably stick with it, should we ever redo the kitchen.

Is electricity more than 4x as efficient at heating say, a saucepan of water than a gas ring?

I'm not talking about 100% efficiency of conversion to heat, but how much energy is used doing the same task, by gas and by the various electric systems.I could measure it, probably, by using the gas meter and boiling, say 3 pints of water in the kettle and in a saucepan. My suspicion is that gas is less efficient, but not 4x less efficient. Furthermore, if we had a whistling kettle (and put it on the right sized burner), it might be better still. There's one for camping, out back somewhere..
 
Spectric said:
I found the same with Rangemaster cookers, looked ok in a traditional kitchen but functionality was second to cosmetics.
Click to expand...
Ah, Rangemaster. IIRC they are based in Long Eaton. When I was doing my Masters, 20-odd years ago now, we had to analyse the business of a local company. Our team got BT (to my heartsink), and one of the other teams got Rangemaster.
As I remember it, they had very high staff turnover and very poor Quality Control. Not a good combo. But they are still going, so they must have upped their game somewhat.
S
 
Steve Neff ovens are good, other companies try to copy them but can’t compete on reliability and service, you get what you pay for.
Don’t know what space you have in you kitchen but it would be fun to look at the French company Lacanche…I put one in for a German client, she says it’s the best oven she has ever had
 
RogerS said:
on the odd occasions I need an oven then the combo microwave works just fine.
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Is that microwave a recent purchase? What make & model is it?
We have a combination microwave/grill/oven but the grill/microwave side has failed. I have been searching for a replacement but have not found anything similar. There are plenty with microwave and grills, but, I can't find one that also has an oven.
 
We have a Rangemaster cooker, and it is absolutely superb. If your only niggle with a cooker you've had for 10 years is that one of the knobs lost its covering and needed replacing (£8), then I reckon it's probably OK. It cooks evenly in both ovens, the 5 gas rings are great, and there are two induction rings for when your bottled gas runs out in the middle of doing christmas dinner (twice!!). We cook whole food from raw ingredients every day, and bake bread, cakes and so on all the time. It's in constant use, and has stood up to a hard life extremely well. We've lived in at least 12 different houses over the years, and the Rangemaster is far and away the best cooker we've ever had. It's the only one we've ever had in which you can place 3 trays of biscuits on different shelves and know they're all going to come out at the same time cooked to the same colour.
 
I believe NEFF do have a patent for the slide and hide. I'm reading this thread with interest as we(*) have opted to replace our ancient gas hob + fan oven with an induction hob and S&H oven, arriving imminently. I too have my hesitations, particularly about the touch controls. And whether WiFi connectivity is a good thing.

(*) By "we", I think you may be able to guess what I mean.
 
Just4fun said:
Is that microwave a recent purchase? What make & model is it?
We have a combination microwave/grill/oven but the grill/microwave side has failed. I have been searching for a replacement but have not found anything similar. There are plenty with microwave and grills, but, I can't find one that also has an oven.
Click to expand...
That is concerning as have used the Sharp combi for years and years.
 
Lurker said:
Can’t these Wi-Fi things be disabled?
Click to expand...
I think it all works without. It remains to be seen which way is easier; the ovens may be more convenient to set by the app than by a touch screen at whatever compromise height it ends up at. It may also remain usable if the touch screen fails, which is one of the more common failure modes. And the timer sounds on the phone, wherever you are, which might make it safer to wander off and get distracted !
 
Jonathan said:
Steve Neff ovens are good, other companies try to copy them but can’t compete on reliability and service, you get what you pay for.
Click to expand...

Neff ovens used to be good, but we've had four in succession. The last one was installed in the week before lockdown (effectively we had no choice - buy it or have no oven at all).

It was a nasty shock: roughly the same cost as its predecessor, It looked very different. I took the lid off before fitting it: truly horrible. The control circuits, if you can call them that, are a straight throwback to the 1970s. There is one single, small semiconductor board: it's driving the clock.

After complaints from the DC that it wasn't cooking properly, I measured the hysteresis in the top oven with a type K thermocouple: around 50C, with significant overshoot. Basically when you switch any element on, it runs red hot until the bi-metallic strip opens (there are no actual thermometers, so these ovens are incapable of displaying what temperature they're actually at - the fan oven has a similar circuit).

Recently, the top oven's top element has literally overheated and melted into a new shape, saging down on one front corner into the cooking area. Yes, it's the usual mica-filled metal tube (probably a low grade of stainless), and yes, Googling suggests we are far from alone in experiencing this.

The result is an unexpected, literally red-hot element, which will permanently disfigure the back of an incautious hand. I couldn't believe my eyes when I first noticed it. I bought a spare element and will fit it as soon as possible (lifting heavy things is verboten presently), but there's no reason it won't do exactly the same as the present one.

New annoyance: It uses small halogen bulbs that can last as for as little as a few days, and are extremely difficult to change. Their earlier oven light fittings were nasty, but these are unspeakably horrid.

The strength and finish of the wirework has been significantly reduced, the internal volumes of both ovens are smaller than the earlier ones we had (Christmas turkey is still just about do-able, but awkward), and the quality of the fittings considerably inferior. Ditto the control surface - no longer easy to clean because of nasty escutcheons sticking up round the knobs.

The contrast with its predecessor couldn't be more marked. It looks and feels cheap. Internally, it is cheap. It doesn't operate well, and it is turning out also to be high maintenance and will likely have a short lifespan.

I used to consider Bosch to be a premium brand. Five years on, I still feel angry and ripped-off by this purchase, and will never, knowingly, buy any of their white goods again. After unnecessary failures of a washing machine, a freezer, and now three* generations of Neff ovens getting progressively more cheaply made (all these were Bosch), I have had enough. However it was in the past, I think Bosch now belives it's consumers are there to be milked.

Sorry - rant over. But remember: Bosch own Neff, Gaggenau and Siemens brands, too.

*The first one was also simple 1970s tech, but was well made in comparison, possibly even dating from before Bosch bought Neff (in 1982). We inherited it with the house, and it served us for the first ten years or so we've been here. The last three ovens have all been in the subsequent 20 years. The first of those was deemed unrepairable by our insurer when an oven door shattered (despite replacements being available), the second had a logic power supply fail (probably easily repaired, in retrospect), and the third we're still using.
 
The big advantage of an induction hob is keeping it clean, just a flat surface on which stuff does not get burnt onto. Cleaning a gas hob can be a right pain, five lots of rings to dismantle and plenty of nooks & crannys to clean so not fun.
 
Spectric said:
You cannot beat a good gas hob, it looks and feels right compared to the induction hob which shows no signs of producing any heat, maybe they need to put an artificial red flame effect on them like they do with electric fires.
Click to expand...
You can absolutely beat one, 'specially when the eejit that hooked up the gas didn't do the bloody connection tight enough. When we discovered burn marks at the back of the hob, the BG technician put some stripy tape across it and said "do not use under any circumstances!!"

Very shortly thereafter, we switched to our first 'leccy hob; SWIMBO would have to be dragged kicking and screaming to any other new appliance gas fed - Rob
 
Eric the Viking said:
I used to consider Bosch to be a premium brand. Five years on, I still feel angry and ripped-off by this purchase, and will never, knowingly, buy any of their white goods again. After unnecessary failures of a washing machine, a freezer, and now three* generations of Neff ovens getting progressively more cheaply made (all these were Bosch), I have had enough. However it was in the past, I think Bosch now belives it's consumers are there to be milked.
Click to expand...

It isn't just Bosch. So many names are owned by a common parent company, and have such a hold on the market that they don't have to give a damn. I have been caught by so many electrical items with obvious design weaknesses. AKG [AKA Harmon international, AKA Samsung] headphones with a flimsy plastic hinge part that breaks, Lenovo laptops with similarly poor lid hinges screwed to those little brass inserts into plastic that pull out, cracking the screen. HP laptops with keyboards that fail just out of warranty... The answer is always the same - that's not a manufacturing fault. But it is a design fault. But that's not covered by the warranty. No movement, however hard you argue.
 
Yeah but if there built things to last forever they would fast run out of customers:)

I must admit I am beginning to dread the process of buying anything these days as I sound like my father every time I do. “They don’t make stuff like they used to son”.
 
Eric, that’s interesting and very sad as they there excellent product admittedly it’s a few years since I fitted Neff.
Totally in agreement with you re Bosch, I have refuse to touch them for about 15 years.
Last kitchen I built all the cooling was done by Libherr, 2 of the wine storage units died within a couple of years…..looks like all the high end brands have destroyed quality for the sake of making more profit
Eric the Viking said:
Neff ovens used to be good, but we've had four in succession. The last one was installed in the week before lockdown (effectively we had no choice - buy it or have no oven at all).

It was a nasty shock: roughly the same cost as its predecessor, It looked very different. I took the lid off before fitting it: truly horrible. The control circuits, if you can call them that, are a straight throwback to the 1970s. There is one single, small semiconductor board: it's driving the clock.

After complaints from the DC that it wasn't cooking properly, I measured the hysteresis in the top oven with a type K thermocouple: around 50C, with significant overshoot. Basically when you switch any element on, it runs red hot until the bi-metallic strip opens (there are no actual thermometers, so these ovens are incapable of displaying what temperature they're actually at - the fan oven has a similar circuit).

Recently, the top oven's top element has literally overheated and melted into a new shape, saging down on one front corner into the cooking area. Yes, it's the usual mica-filled metal tube (probably a low grade of stainless), and yes, Googling suggests we are far from alone in experiencing this.

The result is an unexpected, literally red-hot element, which will permanently disfigure the back of an incautious hand. I couldn't believe my eyes when I first noticed it. I bought a spare element and will fit it as soon as possible (lifting heavy things is verboten presently), but there's no reason it won't do exactly the same as the present one.

New annoyance: It uses small halogen bulbs that can last as for as little as a few days, and are extremely difficult to change. Their earlier oven light fittings were nasty, but these are unspeakably horrid.

The strength and finish of the wirework has been significantly reduced, the internal volumes of both ovens are smaller than the earlier ones we had (Christmas turkey is still just about do-able, but awkward), and the quality of the fittings considerably inferior. Ditto the control surface - no longer easy to clean because of nasty escutcheons sticking up round the knobs.

The contrast with its predecessor couldn't be more marked. It looks and feels cheap. Internally, it is cheap. It doesn't operate well, and it is turning out also to be high maintenance and will likely have a short lifespan.

I used to consider Bosch to be a premium brand. Five years on, I still feel angry and ripped-off by this purchase, and will never, knowingly, buy any of their white goods again. After unnecessary failures of a washing machine, a freezer, and now three* generations of Neff ovens getting progressively more cheaply made (all these were Bosch), I have had enough. However it was in the past, I think Bosch now belives it's consumers are there to be milked.

Sorry - rant over. But remember: Bosch own Neff, Gaggenau and Siemens brands, too.

*The first one was also simple 1970s tech, but was well made in comparison, possibly even dating from before Bosch bought Neff (in 1982). We inherited it with the house, and it served us for the first ten years or so we've been here. The last three ovens have all been in the subsequent 20 years. The first of those was deemed unrepairable by our insurer when an oven door shattered (despite replacements being available), the second had a logic power supply fail (probably easily repaired, in retrospect), and the third we're still using.
Click to expand...
 
Woodbloke said:
'specially when the eejit that hooked up the gas didn't do the bloody connection tight enough
Click to expand...
Probably a DIY job, was it a hose with bayonet fitting ? You get far too many people messing with electric's which is bad enough but messing with gas can also impact your neighbours which is really bad news.
 
Spectric said:
Probably a DIY job
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This really irritates me. Especially when it comes from trades and any bad work must be DIYers. Couldn't possibly be a tradesman overstepping their competence. Like kitchen fitters doing gas work & electrics without the required skills let alone certification. Or employees of a company where someone is qualified to self-certify, but not necessarily the one that did the work. The DIYer has to live in the house, so has a bit of extra incentive to do it well at least.

It is worth remembering that the 1968 Ronan point building collapse, that caused changes to building regs and I thing CORGI to emerge, was caused by a gas explosion due to a faulty fitting, triggering a castrophic result due to poor design and terrible constructionof the building. No DIY required.

I lived in a rented house once where the landlord installed storage heaters. Did all the cabling except the timeswitch/meter, which he got a pro in to do. I stayed home to let him in. He spent all his time criticising the landlord for his cables not being straight and tidy. A few evenings later I was in the living room, and saw blue flashes lighting up the meter cupboard. The "pro" had failed to tighten the meter terminals. Similar things were pretty common in the mad rush to fit smart meters. So, it could be a pro in a hurry.
 
Spectric said:
Probably a DIY job, was it a hose with bayonet fitting ? You get far too many people messing with electric's which is bad enough but messing with gas can also impact your neighbours which is really bad news.
Click to expand...
No, I'd never touch anything to do with gas. The hob installation was done by a so called firm of 'professionals'; the guy who fitted it needs to be hung, drawn and quartered - Rob
 
the WIFI on my dishwasher is brilliant. I can switch it on, or off, from the other side of the world. Now how useful is that?
It is about time these things had voice control though. I’m getting fed up pressing buttons.
 
AndyP said:
the WIFI on my dishwasher is brilliant. I can switch it on, or off, from the other side of the world. Now how useful is that?
It is about time these things had voice control though. I’m getting fed up pressing buttons.
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Yes, but can you load and unload it from the other side of the world? Eh? EH?
:)
S
 
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Eric:
Thank you for all that. You know what you are looking at when you get inside one; most of us, and certainly I, wouldn't have a clue.
So which brands would you still rate? TBH, I go by the star ratings on the Big River. But they don't give you longevity stories.
It's a minefield, isn't it?
S
PS It's not as if the Neff stuff is cheap. You can easily spend 2K on an oven.
 
My old Skoda has voice control. When the digitiser screen packed up, the voice control was the only way I could access the satnav.
 
Jonathan said:
Last kitchen I built all the cooling was done by Libherr, 2 of the wine storage units died within a couple of years…..looks like all the high end brands have destroyed quality for the sake of making more profit
Click to expand...
I like Liebherr. Thicker, stronger steel, and thoughtful design, also good product support. We have one of their tall fridges, although it was a warranty replacement (done quickly and courteously). We've had it for around seven years, and it's been excellent.
 
Steve Maskery said:
Eric:
Thank you for all that. You know what you are looking at when you get inside one; most of us, and certainly I, wouldn't have a clue.
So which brands would you still rate? TBH, I go by the star ratings on the Big River. But they don't give you longevity stories.
It's a minefield, isn't it?
S
PS It's not as if the Neff stuff is cheap. You can easily spend 2K on an oven.
Click to expand...
Never, never, ever base any buying decision on Amazon's fake star-ratings.
 
We like our gas hob because:
1. It’s cheap to run. I can’t remember when I last changed the bottle.
2. It works in a power cut.
3. We can use a proper carbon steel, round-bottomed, naturally-seasoned wok on it.

In general, I’d say one should always have multiple energy sources, in case of price rises or power cuts. We have logs (and coal/anthracite if needed), oil, gas and electricity.
 
Steve Maskery said:
You know what you are looking at when you get inside one
Click to expand...
Not really, but I do know what makes sense (and supplying a double oven with a fused 13A plug on it doesn't either! But I digress...).
Steve Maskery said:
So which brands would you still rate?
Click to expand...
I think it's really hard. I wish I'd had a chance to shop around more, but this last Neff purchase really was Hobson's choice - "we have this one in the showroom; it fits the space; we can deliver it this week." Alternative: no oven, indefinitely (1st Covid lockdown, when everyone was panicing).

There are a few 'new-teardown' channels on YT, but rarely do they do things I'm interested in when I'm looking, and you need to dig deep also. For example that heating element - who'd have thought it could happen? Actually, there was quite a bit of discussion about the problem on various forums (which I found after it happened), but 'melting heating element' is not something I'd normally Google!

So I like Liebherr for fridges and freezers - the build quality IS good. But they don't do other white goods. They will, however sell you a giant crane should you have need. Brilliant company, IMHO.

Miele have come in for some stick recently as they don't seem to be as good as they once were, although I have repaired both our Miele washing machine and dishwasher fairly easily (once Miele spares (who seem to be pants) sent me the right door seal for the WM).

Beware of many modern washers: the big brands use plastic outer drums, that are plastic welded to be one piece (last part of the drum assembly process). This means the spider bearing, the really chunky one for for the spinning inner drum, is no longer serviceable, and the machine is scrap if it fails (and they do, often. I think I can keep ours going for a while yet, but will replace when we finally downsize. I'll look for brands that have a commercial/industrial division (e.g. make washers for HMO owners who operate communal laundry rooms, for example).

Cookers: really no idea presently. My sister's on her second or third induction hob after an expensive (but nice) kitchen refit about three or four years ago (they're all electric, with oil CH). That is unacceptable to me, so again I'll look for a manufacturer with a toe in the catering industry, if I can.

. . .

We bought a tumble dryer recently, when our Creda machine, a mere 41 years old, finally seized its motor. That was a challenge to source!

Unexpectedly, I ended up with a really cheap one, a Candy CSE-V9-DF80 (I think, anyway it's Italian "Hoover", made in Turkey). I wanted an external vent, and reversing action (so sheets weren't knotted and clothes less creased). It's surprising how many big brands don't offer these simple things.

I did NOT want: colour matching to the scullery wallpaper or the washing machine; any sort of condenser, heat exchanger, sewage recycler, or connection to Google or subscription to Apple Music (or whatever).

Despite being cheap and functionally simple (or it should be), It has the stupidest and most absurd control panel I have ever seen on anything, anywhere, ever. Ever.

The icons on the control panel are, as I type, being decyphered by a team of academics at the British Museum. The main theme has been teased out mostly, something like, "So you want to just dry clothes? Ha ha ha ha..." (this is repeated in three or four places, which made it easier, I guess).

It connects to an Android phone (which neither of us own, and WHY anyway), but uses something that isn't Bluetooth. There is a Candy app for Apple, but that doesn't work ("Sir needs the posher unit, which costs more as it uses tech from They-Saw-Me-Coming Integrations Inc.").

Despite that, it is still capable of managing the first missile exchange of WW3, a thoughtful touch which it explains in the instruction booklet via internationally standard cartoons (probably - the few words are in Turkish, presumably). Drying clothes is, apparently, trickier.

Incidentally, the "new normal" is a single, low-power heating element. I can't blame Candy (except for being gormless): Nobody has explained to the EU that this is LESS efficient and less 'green', than a high power one, or (crazy-thought!), giving consumers the choice of the temperature at which they want to dry clothes.

So, if you do manage to start it (DaVinci Code training required), stuff usually comes out damp and needs to be done twice, but NOT creased.

If only they'd thought of all this back in 1985, when we bought the old one!

Aside: It is tempting to see if I can source a second heating module and somehow wire them in parallel (bigger relay probably needed).

I have also given serious consideration to ripping the control system out and replacing it with one whole microswitch (on the door) and a timer. But I'd have to figure out reversing too, and presently life's too short, and we hardly use it anyway.

I realise readers might not believe me. This is the intuitive control panel:
20260209_203657.jpg
Obviously the WW3 bit had to be redacted.
The beast is off in the picture, but when you turn it on the display says "duck and cover" for three seconds (in Turkish).

Honestly, I feel on the whole, white goods makers are pretty combative towards consumers, and certainly don't want you knowing where they recently cut corners.

E.

PS: the four o'clock setting on the big knob is for chemical warfare. Simples!
 
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You wouldn’t want to start a tumble dryer remotely… would you? That means, a) someone else could start it and b) the dryer would be running unattended in the house.

There must be some sort of arms race in unnecessary appliance features - our Candy dryer is about 20 years old and has two settings - “ON” and “HALF ON”.
 
Guineafowl21 said:
There must be some sort of arms race in unnecessary appliance features
Click to expand...
Because for some they are like a light to a moth whilst the added complexity can reduce the products lifespan and increase potential sales for the company. Just think of cars, all that complexity has put many a decent motor into a salvage yard.
 
Going back to the subject of combi ovens, we’ve had a Panasonic NN CF873 for quite a number of years which replaced an earlier version that we must have originally bought over 25 years ago. For cooking for two people, it works well as a grill, fan oven, microwave or any combination of these – good for baked potatoes. We have a radiant (halogen) hob here but the place in France has an induction hob which my wife loves.

As to the question of the longevity of modern appliances, in our kitchen we’re on the third fridge since 1986. However, in the utility room, we still have our original fridge that we bought second hand in 1970!

Oops, wrong thread! Should have posted on the “Things have moved on in the last 8 years …” thread. Could a mod please move it? Thanks.
 
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Just4fun said:
Is that microwave a recent purchase? What make & model is it?
We have a combination microwave/grill/oven but the grill/microwave side has failed. I have been searching for a replacement but have not found anything similar. There are plenty with microwave and grills, but, I can't find one that also has an oven.
Click to expand...
It would appear that the Sharp is still available on Amazon

 
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