German spindle moulder?

[AJB Temple]

My wife's dad is aware I am looking for a spindle and has messaged me to say that he can get me a Kamro FM2 for nothing. It's in Germany, so post Covid I will need to hire a tail lift van and pick it up. It tis described as a wood milling machine, but seems in fact to be a spindle moulder.

This is not a brand I have heard of. The spindle is 30mm and there is some sort of top feed mechanism with three wheels that pulls wood through I think. There is a lot of tooling with it he says. He thinks it will work on UK power supply, but I am not sure at all.

Has anyone come across these? Google seems to suggest they are OK. If I say yes, (not sure that I have a real choice) it will be delivered to him next week and plonked in one of his garages ready for me to pick up, along with some other stuff that is coming out of a shop (his friend is retiring and his son does not wish to take over the business).

I suspect I will need to buy a pallet trolley jack to shift it.

 

[Trevanion]

Can't say I've actually heard of them, but from googling it the machine does look familiar so maybe I've seen a couple for sale at some point, but then, they all do look the same :lol:

Looking from what I can find, it's going to have either a 5KW or 6.5KW motor driving the spindle, not a toy! The question is really whether you have the power to run such a monster, you'll either need three-phase on tap or a three-phase generator of some kind to run it.

Looks a nice machine though, German quality as per usual, particularly if it comes with the sliding table that you can see attached to quite a few of them. A big stack of tooling is a big bonus too. I don't think importing European machines is a big issue as power runs on 50hz both in Britain and the Continent, it would be an issue if it was from America as their power is 60hz and it would run about 17% slower here.

At around 800kg, you will definitely need a pallet truck. I would say go for it if it's free and you're heading over to Germany anyway. If nothing else it would fetch a decent amount of money over here in good nick.

 

[AJB Temple]

If not in Covid times we go to Germany a lot to visit in laws and my wife's friends and relations. So the trip is no big deal in due course. Three phase worries me though as that is not realistic unless I build a new workshop adjacent to the pole. I will ask FIL to check exactly what the power needs are from his mate. I have a heavy duty supply to my w/s but 240v only.

 

[9fingers]

Don't be afraid of 3 phase. Inverters are very reliable and can give you variable speed and braking too.

Bob

 

[AJB Temple]

OK. He says it's 6Kw including a power feed. I'm struggling to explain 3 phase vs single phase to my FIL. It weighs over 900kg including the extra bits apparently, and therefore I could not put it in my w/s as it has a step up and that is serious weight. Not sure if this is just too industrial for me as 6Kw is apparently over 8 horsepower, which sounds like way more than I need or dare handle. Will probably pass, sadly.

 

[9fingers]

OK. He says it's 6Kw including a power feed. I'm struggling to explain 3 phase vs single phase to my FIL. It weighs over 900kg including the extra bits apparently, and therefore I could not put it in my w/s as it has a step up and that is serious weight. Not sure if this is just too industrial for me as 6Kw is apparently over 8 horsepower, which sounds like way more than I need or dare handle. Will probably pass, sadly.

My Dad used to have a phrase " there is a difference between scratching your 4rse and tearing the skin off"

8hp is nearer the "tearing the skin off" for a hobby shop I reckon.

Bob

 

[Trevanion]

I'm struggling to explain 3 phase vs single phase to my FIL.

He might struggle to understand the issue as I think practically all homes in Germany have 440V three-phase power coming into them, it wouldn't be an issue for most people there to buy that and run it with no problems.

The British government really should have some kind of three-phase rollout scheme to help small businesses as having to pay £40,000+ in most cases to have it installed is absolutely absurd.

 

[droogs]

Adrian ask your FIL if the machine is dreiphasenweschelstrom. He should understand that as german houses are all supplied with a 3 phase feed as well as 1 phase

 

[AJB Temple]

Thanks. Will establish the facts tomorrow, but I am pretty sure this is way OTT for me.

 

[RogerS]

....but I am pretty sure this is way OTT for me.

Don't underestimate yourself, Adrian. Plenty of help here on the forum.

As Bob says..an inverter will give you three-phase but you might need to mess around with the motors converting them to star or delta (I can never remember which). Plus you have to bring the controls on the machine out to control the inverter. TBH it is a real PITA and I had to give up that approach with my combi. Instead I got a Transwave rotary converter. My preferred KISS approach. Just get your sparky to run in a good feed on a separate circuit with appropriate breakers and jobs a good'un.

 

[Guineafowl21]

I'm struggling to explain 3 phase vs single phase to my FIL.

He might struggle to understand the issue as I think practically all homes in Germany have 440V three-phase power coming into them, it wouldn't be an issue for most people there to buy that and run it with no problems.

The British government really should have some kind of three-phase rollout scheme to help small businesses as having to pay £40,000+ in most cases to have it installed is absolutely absurd.

We dropped the ball a little there - with heat pumps and car charging points coming in, three phase would have been a very handy standard for domestic supplies. Even 230V 3ph is far more efficient.

AJB, do you have any pictures of it?

 

[clogs]

AJB,
just go for it.....you cant loose.....
just wish I had the oppertunity.....
sadly still missing my Wadkin EQ.......
A used the power feeder would fetch at least £200 on it's own......
Provide FIL has a proper drive borrow an engine lift/crane to get it in the back and just use a norm Transit...no real need for a tail lift..make sure you tie it down tho....proper ratchet straps....
IT wont be hard to get it out with a few friends...doing it in reverse.....
hopefully your garden path or what ever is smooth......
Pallet truck can be rented really cheaply but only good on the smooth stuff but of course a couple of 3/4 sheets of ply would make life easier........
good luck......

 

[AJB Temple]

I've passed. It could turn into a money pit and my workshop is not easy to get heavy machines into as it is at the end of the garden. Converting from 3 phase (I know nothing about this) and collecting it from Koln (van hire is not cheap for going abroad), and getting a new supply wired in, works out too much given the risk it may be unsuitable. I need a sensible machine for personal use. FIL gets this.

 

[RogerS]

..... Converting from 3 phase (I know nothing about this) .....

Adrian, can you wire a plug ? If so then that's the only skill you need !

 

[Guineafowl21]

I've passed. It could turn into a money pit and my workshop is not easy to get heavy machines into as it is at the end of the garden. Converting from 3 phase (I know nothing about this) and collecting it from Koln (van hire is not cheap for going abroad), and getting a new supply wired in, works out too much given the risk it may be unsuitable. I need a sensible machine for personal use. FIL gets this.

I might be interested in it - would you mind PM-ing the collection postcode (or equivalent)? I’ll have to guess the dimensions.

 

[Trevanion]

..... Converting from 3 phase (I know nothing about this) .....

Adrian, can you wire a plug ? If so then that's the only skill you need !

I don’t think an 8HP three-phase motor will run on a single-phase supply effectively, no matter what black magic you try!

 

[RogerS]

..... Converting from 3 phase (I know nothing about this) .....

Adrian, can you wire a plug ? If so then that's the only skill you need !

I don’t think an 8HP three-phase motor will run on a single-phase supply effectively, no matter what black magic you try!

Transwave would beg to differ, Dan !

 

[Guineafowl21]

That is some lump of a spindle moulder:

https://files.hoechsmann.com/lexikon/pd ... df?lang=en

A full tonne with the sliding table.

 

[Trevanion]

Transwave would beg to differ, Dan !

Do you yourself have experience trying to run high-powered three-phase motors (over 4KW) off a domestic single-phase supply?

 

[RogerS]

Transwave would beg to differ, Dan !

Do you yourself have experience trying to run high-powered three-phase motors (over 4KW) off a domestic single-phase supply?

Yes. It's not rocket-science. I refer you back to the Transwave chart. They are a reputable company. I agree that as you start to get towards the higher size that the 240v supply needs special attention!

 

[Trevanion]

Yes. It's not rocket-science. I refer you back to the Transwave chart. They are a reputable company. I agree that as you start to get towards the higher size that the 240v supply needs special attention!

Perhaps they’ve come on a long way since the last time I used machinery running on a Transwave, but I found even within spec and wired properly that the machine (A Multico Tenoner with two 2.2kw motors to be precise) was gutless compared to one that was running on true three-phase.

I don’t think Adrian will have the power to run the moulder, the power feed, an extractor (say 8HP, 1HP, and 2HP respectively) and still have enough power for the lights and whatever’s going on in the house unless he has an unusually powerful supply.

 

[AJB Temple]

Trevanion is spot on, and the was my conclusion exactly. Realism has to prevail here; I have a heavy duty supply but not one on an industrial scale.

This was a deal available through family contacts. Sorry - it is not available to others. Nor am I interested in making money from it - FIL finds all kinds of things for us, but I respect his approach to it and will not abuse it.

 

[Guineafowl21]

Trevanion is spot on, and the was my conclusion exactly. Realism has to prevail here; I have a heavy duty supply but not one on an industrial scale.

This was a deal available through family contacts. Sorry - it is not available to others. Nor am I interested in making money from it - FIL finds all kinds of things for us, but I respect his approach to it and will not abuse it.

Fair enough. It was a bit speculative on my part, anyway.

Have a look at my thread on here (11/4” spindle to 30mm), which was an engineering question that has turned into a hunt for a big spindle moulder.

 

[Vann]

I've passed...

Well fellow enablers, we have failed in our quest to push Mr Temple over the edge and down the slippery slope.

Mark: F = fail.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[MJ80]

I've missed this over the weekend.
There are plenty of good machines on offer over here for a reasonable price. The Kolle are good machines and the sliding table setup is quite common here. Often they are available with a cut off saw as well for tennis, but the guarding for this isn't up to current standards.
All houses pretty much have Starkstrom (3phase), single phase is called Wechselstrom. Out consumer unit has a clever buzzbar so each neighbouring rcd runs on a different phase. Each room is on its own 16a radial for the sockets and lights. It's pretty bonkers and all the major appliances have individual rcds, rather than isolators as in the UK. The voltage difference between the UK and Germany is negligible. A friend who is an electrican explained it's all the same voltage, they have tried to harmonise the number standard through the Eu. I have a couple of machines from the UK and they run fine. The old german standard was 380v I believe.
Currently I have a Baüerle SFM machine from the 1980's without the sliding table setup and it's a great machine. Simple, a breeze to setup, reverse option, multiple speeds off the switch both ways. Similar to a Wadkin BEM. I do have a Festo (pre portable Festool) tenoner that I need to get up and running, it's like a giant version of a Sedgwick. Has some odd looking discs I'm not to keen on.
So there are good value machines here if you look hard enough, transport back to the UK and taxes post brexit I have no idea on. Pallets shipping is expensive here, but there are more online booking options so the price has dropped somewhat. Prices are on the up at the moment, houses are much bigger and people have the space for workshops at home, bandsaws in particular have gone through the roof. Corona has definitely made more people set up the home workshop. Hopefully it will come down over time.

 

[Guineafowl21]

I've passed...

Well fellow enablers, we have failed in our quest to push Mr Temple over the edge and down the slippery slope.

Mark: F = fail.

Cheers, Vann.

If it’s any consolation, all I wanted was a router table.

Now I’m looking at industrial spindle moulders, thanks to the offices of Mr Trevanion.

Hook, line, sinker and copy of Angling Times. :eusa-clap:

 

[AJB Temple]

Well, FIL is going to take it anyway, even though he does not do woodwork. He's got lots of space in his lockups and we can always sell it and the other machines on he figures. So I will check it out when we next go over.

 

[heimlaga]

Kamro is usually good quality. A step below Martin and Bäuerle but still good. They are some sort of German-Polish crossbreeds with many of the parts made in Poland to German specifications and drawings under German supervision. Some parts seem to be made in Germany.

In all likelyhood it runs on 400 volt three phase. Most German machines of that era and size have a wye-delta starter to keep start currents down and with that it should run fine on 16 ampere fuses.

Anyway it sounds like a very useful machine with power feeder and all. Get it!

 

[9fingers]

As well as Wye-Delta (aka Star-Delta) which means that motors cannot be reconfigured for 240v three phase inverter use, it seems that most installations in mainland Europe have neutral wired from the incoming fuse board to each machine outlet eg 5 PIN red connectors. In UK this is rare.
So European machines might have a need for a neutral for control circuits and maybe work lights. More modern machines (Ive seen it on Felders and Hammers) use a transformer to convert from phase to phase 415v to 110v and no longer need a neutral thus making them equally acceptable in UK.

As a general guide rule, machines with 5hp(4kw) motors or higher will use star-delta starting and so more difficult to use with inverters. Specification plates on these motors will likely read 400-700 volts or similar.

when wired as star the motor is effectively a 700v motor being run on 400v and hence taking lower current by a factor of root3 (and a power reduction to 1/3) Once up to speed, the start converts the motor to delta (400v) and the power output trebles. No reconfiguration to 240v is possible with these motors so a voltage converting inverter (240-400) is needed and still might not be too happy with star delta switching and instead need programming for slow ramp up to speed.
Doable but needs thinking about.

Bob

 

[AJB Temple]

All these technicalities worry me. This is why I passed until Heinz got it anyway. My machinery expertise is basically "plug it in".

 

[9fingers]

All these technicalities worry me. This is why I passed until Heinz got it anyway. My machinery expertise is basically "plug it in".

Adrian, hopefully with the combined expertise here you will gradually be able to understand your machines more both from a servicing point of view and what to look for with future acquisitions.

Bob

 

[RogerS]

....The voltage difference between the UK and Germany is negligible. ...

Just a great shame they don't tune their orchestras to the same pitch as us !

 

[Trevanion]

If it’s any consolation, all I wanted was a router table.

Now I’m looking at industrial spindle moulders, thanks to the offices of Mr Trevanion.

Hook, line, sinker and copy of Angling Times. :eusa-clap:

To be fair, if anything I saved you money and time!

You would've had to have bought a decent router and decent table at not far off the expense of a spindle moulder, and found out that it didn't quite cut the mustard for the work you envisioned, we just skipped that part and got straight onto the real toys. I think someone might've also bought a fairly substantial Wadkin BRA instead of a little Dewalt RAS after a little nudge in the right direction... :lol:

It's just a good example of how a forum should work, people asking for advice on something they're not sure of and then taking on board the advice they're given. Where it doesn't work is when people ask for advice but are really just looking for confirmation of what they want to do and ignore any contradictory advice even if it's in their best interest to listen. It also doesn't work when there are people who have little or no clue just throwing bad advice out willy nilly, unfortunately, I see it happening a lot in the other place at the moment as there are a few perpetrators there who absolutely terrify me with the "advice" they give out.

 

[Guineafowl21]

I remember being unimpressed by the expense of a router table that was supplied unpowered, and sometimes even without a rise/fall. I hadn’t considered a spindle moulder at all, but there is no more versatile machine in my shop.

There’s a joy to using the older cast iron stuff, especially if you’ve restored it. Does anyone else take a breather during a project, and just sit, taking in the ambience of old machines? :?

 

[AJB Temple]

Nope.I have yet to restore a nice old machine. I find it daunting due to lack of knowledge.

 

[Vann]

...Does anyone else take a breather during a project, and just sit, taking in the ambience of old machines? :?

Yes. But some of those "breathers" last years due to distractions (from both SWMBO and other acquisitions)...

...it seems that most installations in mainland Europe have neutral wired from the incoming fuse board to each machine outlet eg 5 PIN red connectors. In UK this is rare...

Interesting. Here in New Zealand both 4 pin and 5 pin connectors are used in industry. Going by my very limited experience (of buying second hand connectors via the internet) 4 pin connectors are more common than 5 pin connectors by about 2:1.

Most streets in NZ have three phases, but houses are normally on single but alternating phases - i.e. every 3rd house will be on the same phase.

I'm lucky. The PO of our house had 3-phase installed when it was built, as he used machinery in the garage for his business. This enabled me to get into vintage industrial woodworking machines at very little cost (just a couple of additional sockets). Unfortunately the three phase is 4 wire (i.e. no neutral) which makes fitting 230v lamps a much less satisfactory affair.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[RogerS]

....Unfortunately the three phase is 4 wire (i.e. no neutral) which makes fitting 230v lamps a much less satisfactory affair.

Cheers, Vann.

You could always wire up two in series !

 

[Guineafowl21]

Nope.I have yet to restore a nice old machine. I find it daunting due to lack of knowledge.

Catch-22 - lack of knowledge prevents restoring, lack of restoring prevents knowledge. The hive mind on here would surely tip the balance. Start with something simple like a mortiser. Join the massed greasemonkeys on here who speak of gibs, pinions and sticky trunnions...

@Vann it might be worth a call to your supplier regarding what earthing system you have. You may have a neutral but don’t know it if it’s TN-C-S.

Series lamps would be a neat work-around.

 

[AJB Temple]

Indeed Gf21. However, I have my work fully cut out doing woodwork. I am presently making an oak framed building and basically have no time. Doing up machines may be a winter thing but for now I need to do some actual woodwork whilst the weather is on my side.

Even If I do sort out a machine, it needs to be realistic for my workshop.

 

[Vann]

...@Vann it might be worth a call to your supplier regarding what earthing system you have. You may have a neutral but don’t know it if it’s TN-C-S...

Definitely 4-core TPS

...Series lamps would be a neat work-around.

You could always wire up two in series !

Some of my machines might look like Martians.
or
Stereo lighting. :mrgreen:

Cheers, Vann.