Oak Timber frame (and formally a Diminished stile door (markup and cutting the diminished part?))

[Planeiron]

Hello. I'm making a diminished stile door in well seasoned oak. This is being made almost entirely with handtools. The only machine I use is a bandsaw for ripping large stock. So the issue is, does anyone have practical experience and advice (and hopefully photos) for:

1. marking out the diminished still part and mating rail
2. cutting the diminished part of the stile with handtools (I'll remove bulk waste with the bandsaw and plan to finish the edge with a chisel run against a 90 degree guide but not sure this is the best way with what I've got.

I've read that some people use a template for the cut on the stile and mating rail piece, some a sliding bevel (not a massive fan) but where possible I like to use the actual pieces for markup (cut one part and use as a template for the other?). Anyway, how would you do it or how have you done it?

I've all the stuff squared and true and have marked and cut some of the through tenons including in the diminished area and these stiles are all still full width. The bottom part of the door will be grooved for a panel and the top rebated for panes. Any decorative moulding will be chiselled in after (no scribing over).

I've asked this question on a forum based in the US and it's been radio silence. Maybe diminished stiles are more this side of the Atlantic? I've Ellis' modern practical joinery and the authorless door making for carpenters and joiners but none the wiser. I remembered there was a chap on here that impressively made a diminished stile door on a workmate bench! Hoping someone might have somes tips.

 

[Cabinetman]

Welcome indeed.
Whilst I’ve never made a Gunstock door I have made a fair few ordinary ones. Been thinking how I would do it, obviously as you say it’s the sloping shoulders that are the problem. I think I would make it with loose tenons on that part of the door, this allows you to plane the ends of the centre rail easily to an exact fit.
The mating slope on the stiles (unless you really cheat and make each stile in two parts) will just have to be cut roughly to size and finished with either a chisel or a chisel plane, or I suppose you could mainly use a Router.
Interesting project, I hope you will bring it to us as a wip (work in progress) with lots of photos as you work through it?
Ian

 

[duke]

Welcome to the forum Planeiron, how about giving us a proper greeting in the Welcome Introduction area. I am sure we all can help.

 

[AndyP]

Welcome to the Woodhaven,
I do not recall seeing a project like that here but then my memory ain't what it used to be .
I had to look it up just to understand what it was.
I hope you can find the answer and share with us in photographic detail the construction.

 

[AndyT]

I've no direct experience either, but the old thread in question is this one

Thread 'Diminished stile door in cherry (glazing & polishing)' https://www.thewoodhaven2.co.uk/threads/diminished-stile-door-in-cherry-glazing-polishing.5500/

Maybe @David_A14 will respond?

 

[PAC1]

Welcome.. I have made several over the decades. The details of how are in Modern Practical Joinery by George Ellis (I believe a pdf of it exists on the web). I made the gauge he recommends and will take some photos this morning. You could use the Stanley Adjustable Quick Square instead. I cut the mortise and tenon. Mark out both parts of the joint, cut the rail and then pair the stile very carefully to fit with a very sharp pairing chisel.

 

[AndyP]

I do not recall seeing a project like that here but then my memory ain't what it used to be .

Confirmed by AndyT

 

[AndyT]

Confirmed by AndyT

Sorry!

 

[eezageeza]

This might be an instructive watch :

 

[PAC1]

Here is a photo of the gauge. You use the top edge for the stile and the one at right angles for the rail:

 

[PAC1]

I have never entirely reduced the stile. The one I have made swap from a groove (for a panel) to a rebate(for glazing) and all you do is taper out the rebate on the one side at the mid rail.
Why are you tapering the entire width of the stile?

 

[AndyT]

If you want a different set of instructions to read alongside the two you mentioned, Hasluck's Carpentry & Joinery from 1907 is quite detailed, though his only hint on shaping the stiles is to say that a bullnose plane "is sometimes found useful."

Read online or download as a pdf and start at page 346.

Cassells' carpentry and joinery : Hasluck, Paul N. (Paul Nooncree), 1854-1931, ed : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

4 p. 24 cm

archive.org

 

[meccarroll]

I have never entirely reduced the stile. The one I have made swap from a groove (for a panel) to a rebate(for glazing) and all you do is taper out the rebate on the one side at the mid rail.
Why are you tapering the entire width of the stile?

The type of door the Op describes is a Gunstock style door in which the bottom stiles are kept full width and the top stiles are reduced where they meet the middle rail. I am pretty sure a bolechin moulding was used traditonally around the bottom panels, this could be on both inside and outside faces of the door but was often just on the outside face of the door.

I have use a router with a bush to guide the router against apiece of ply, the ply is fastenrd to the stile at the middle rail point and placed to obtain the taper, it's a pretty full proof way of obtaining the necessary taper and it's quicker than doing it by hand chisel. The joint is slightly rounded where it meets with the rebate on the stile so is finished off with a hand chisel.

Picture below is from the web: Macquarie Joinery (Australia)



Mark

 

[Planeiron]

I've no direct experience either, but the old thread in question is this one

Thread 'Diminished stile door in cherry (glazing & polishing)' https://www.thewoodhaven2.co.uk/threads/diminished-stile-door-in-cherry-glazing-polishing.5500/

Maybe @David_A14 will respond?

Yes, that's the one. I just noticed that this was made in a few days. Might be more of a delay at the rate I work

This might be an instructive watch :

Thank you, I've seen some of this guys videos but not this one which looks spot on

Here is a photo of the gauge. You use the top edge for the stile and the one at right angles for the rail:
View attachment 38087

I think I might make one of these even though I only intend making one diminished stile door. I've seen this in my copy of Ellis but it just didn't make sense to me until I saw your picture. I had thought you were talking about the modified sliding bevel square on p80 which is what seems based on what I would call a framing square and is what I've used several times to produce an angled diminished housing where a beam enters a post and rests on the formed ledge. Although it's really accurate my framing square and the approach wasn't accurate enough for a formal door in well seasoned wood. The guage you've pointed out looks like it will work a treat.

As an aside I wonder why "Ellis' Universal" as he puts it, steel square with adjustable sliding fence isn't made commercially. Seems like it would be very useful for timber framing and general joinery.

I have never entirely reduced the stile. The one I have made swap from a groove (for a panel) to a rebate(for glazing) and all you do is taper out the rebate on the one side at the mid rail.
Why are you tapering the entire width of the stile?

I've made doors before but just fairly standard or variations on panelled doors. The diminished part I think looks great and I like to try new techniques. I plan to taper the diminished part about 1.5 to 2"

Welcome indeed.
Whilst I’ve never made a Gunstock door I have made a fair few ordinary ones. Been thinking how I would do it, obviously as you say it’s the sloping shoulders that are the problem. I think I would make it with loose tenons on that part of the door, this allows you to plane the ends of the centre rail easily to an exact fit.
The mating slope on the stiles (unless you really cheat and make each stile in two parts) will just have to be cut roughly to size and finished with either a chisel or a chisel plane, or I suppose you could mainly use a Router.
Interesting project, I hope you will bring it to us as a wip (work in progress) with lots of photos as you work through it?
Ian

Yes, maybe I should continue the actual project detail in a WIP post if there's interest

 

[AndyT]

Yes, maybe I should continue the actual project detail in a WIP post if there's interest

Yes please!

 

[Doug]

I’ve never made a gunstock door but I fitted a few this one was original to the building fitted in a new opening

If you have a bandsaw then making a new one shouldn’t be too difficult especially if you have chisel plane.

 

[Planeiron]

I’ve never made a gunstock door but I fitted a few this one was original to the building fitted in a new opening View attachment 38106

If you have a bandsaw then making a new one shouldn’t be too difficult especially if you have chisel plane.

I like that wedged setup to hold the door on its side for planing. Will be doing that at some point.
Have to admit that a chisel plane is a new one to me. Certainly looks perfect for this sort of thing

 

[Trevanion]

Gunstock Stile and Diminished Stile are terms used interchangeably, though you may find a Gunstock Joint on a stile that is not diminished for the transition from the panelled bottom section to the glazed top section of a door if the panels are grooved or held captive by mouldings in the door rather than rebated in and dropped in after the assembly of the door.

With a Diminished Stile door, you will be doing the transition from grooved bottom to rebate as well as the transition from full-width to diminished section, so you will have two different angles to cut, one on the moulding side and one on the rebate side. This is avoided if you rebate the bottom panel sections rather than grooving because the rebate will be your transition, and it will be parallel to the moulding transition provided the rebates are the same depth, but this does take away from the heavier-looking full-width section of the bottom and rails by putting a rebate in place.

I would highly recommend laying out the joint on paper first to get your head around it, as it will be much trickier to cut the joint by hand than with machine where you can use a pattern and follow it. It will be difficult to explain how to lay out without a picture for reference, but I will try. First you need to figure out how much diminishment you want in your stile and mark four vertical lines on your piece of paper, the inner and outer line of the stile, the diminishment line, and the glass rebate line. You then want to mark three horizontal lines 90-degrees to and crossing the vertical lines, being the inner and outer line of your middle rail, and the glass rebate line. From the bottom 90-degree corner that's been created where your grooved panel will be, you want to mark two lines, one to the point where the middle rail top line and your diminishment line intersect, and a second to the point where the glass rebate lines intersect which should be lower and to the right of the previous mark, if you've marked your stile on the right and the rail on the left. If you've cut a rebate for the bottom panels, follow the same process, but mark your rebate lines on and connect those instead of the inner stile line to the diminishment line.

If you're putting a moulding on and are planning to do part-scribes, it does get a bit more complex as you need to allow for the moulding and the removed section in between.

Have to admit that a chisel plane is a new one to me. Certainly looks perfect for this sort of thing

A good alternative is a bullnose plane with the front broken off, which are pretty common to find for sale for very little as they were often knocked off benches straight to the floor, or you can buy a bullnose plane with a removable front piece like the Record 077A. For larger work, a rebate plane that's had the front broken off works well too, something like a Stanley 78 or Record 78 or 778. Though I will admit I just do most work with a sharp chisel and haven't felt much need for a chisel plane.

 

[meccarroll]

Just found some photos of how I produced the diminished middle rail cut on the stiles (Nor actual Gunstock stiles).

These are the doors I made:

The above doors are just rebated on the inside at the top.


Above you can just see where the stile joint at meeting the rebate is diminished. It's not a gunstock stile but the jointing method is similar.


And again the photo above shows that I stopped the rebate where the stile meets the rail so I could taper the joint.


Marking out the taper on the face of the joints.



Stopping the rebate on the spindle moulder.


The resulting joint once routered but not quite finished.


Using a piece of ply to guide the router guide bush.



The guide bush follows the ply template so can not go off track.


And again the router with guide bush being guided by the ply template.


And this is little bit is cleaned up by hand chisel.


The joint when assembled and glued.


Just making sure everthing is square whilse marking out.

It's not a Gunstock stile door but the method of cutting the joint is similar, Hope this may be of some help.

 

[Woodbloke]

Have to admit that a chisel plane is a new one to me. Certainly looks perfect for this sort of thing

I've seen a lot of folk slag them off, but they're incredibly useful and mine has got me out of a deep hole on severial occasions. If you do purchase one, I'd advise the Lie Nielsen version simply as the iron has parallel sides and is thus easier to fit into a honing guide, as in my experience they work better if the edge is as square as possible to the sides - Rob

 

[Planeiron]

Thanks for all the suggestions for cutting this joint.

Marking out the taper on the face of the joints.

I tried a kind of double cut like this or intial cut to get close and then to mark off and finish the cut though I was using fairly rough cut joist offcuts but was useful as practise. Your final joint assembled and glued is pretty flawless: nice tight lines


On PAC1's advice I've made a nice adjustable bevel (like the Ellis woodwork book) from whatever was to hand although this will only work before any taper at all is cut


However

If you want a different set of instructions to read alongside the two you mentioned, Hasluck's Carpentry & Joinery from 1907 is quite detailed, though his only hint on shaping the stiles is to say that a bullnose plane "is sometimes found useful."

Read online or download as a pdf and start at page 346.

after looking at Hasluck's, he describes a similar device but with a longer stock which can be registered before or after the diminished taper cut so may make another longer registration stock

I would highly recommend laying out the joint on paper first to get your head around it, as it will be much trickier to cut the joint by hand than with machine where you can use a pattern and follow it. It will be difficult to explain how to lay out without a picture for reference, but I will try. First you need to figure out how much diminishment you want in your stile and mark four vertical lines on your piece of paper, the inner and outer line of the stile, the diminishment line, and the glass rebate line. You then want to mark three horizontal lines 90-degrees to and crossing the vertical lines, being the inner and outer line of your middle rail, and the glass rebate line. From the bottom 90-degree corner that's been created where your grooved panel will be, you want to mark two lines, one to the point where the middle rail top line and your diminishment line intersect, and a second to the point where the glass rebate lines intersect which should be lower and to the right of the previous mark, if you've marked your stile on the right and the rail on the left. If you've cut a rebate for the bottom panels, follow the same process, but mark your rebate lines on and connect those instead of the inner stile line to the diminishment line.

Diagram definitely helps to get yer head around this especially when new to it like me. These are from Corkhill Dowsett joinery and carpentry showing an isometric view of the joint and a diagram of a very similar looking setup to what I intend making although there will be some modifications

 

[meccarroll]

Thanks for all the suggestions for cutting this joint.

I tried a kind of double cut like this or intial cut to get close and then to mark off and finish the cut though I was using fairly rough cut joist offcuts but was useful as practise. Your final joint assembled and glued is pretty flawless: nice tight lines
View attachment 38149

Well just look at that for a nice fit, superb workmanship!

You really do need to do a with pics thread now!

 

[Stuart]

Can I ask what the benefits of a gunstock door are?

It looks as though the only major benefit is an increase in the glazed area but is that what the main intention is?

 

[Planeiron]

Can I ask what the benefits of a gunstock door are?

It looks as though the only major benefit is an increase in the glazed area but is that what the main intention is?

Yes, mostly to increase the amount of light. Some also think it looks better and more balanced especially when there are fixed lights/panes either side which would have more slender frames than a door. I like the appearance and have an old similar door in our house which I always liked the look of. I'm also just keen to try a new technique as well. Completely unnecessary additional faff and not the usual context in my case but we'll see what happens. The glorified shed I've made is also a mixture of styles and certainly wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea.

 

[Cabinetman]

Well done, also for being separate from the herd.
Plus 1 for looking better against side lights, reminds me of doors at my Grandparents in Edinburgh with white flowery designs on the glass, they were painted that old fashioned sort of dark purple? Strange sort of a colour.
Ian

 

[NickM]

This is a really interesting project. Please do share some details and photos if you can.

 

[Planeiron]

This is a really interesting project. Please do share some details and photos if you can.

I've started a WIP for this door but I can't get much done with the low temps and freezing fingers at the moment. This door WIP is part of a cabin bigger WIP: I could post some pics showing some of the main stages in the cabin build so far that has got me to this point...

 

[Cabinetman]

Now I for one would love to see more of that cabin please!

 

[Planeiron]

Well maybe I'll do this in a few stages to keep it manageable. This first photo is March 2022 so this project is now close to 4 years though it feels at times more like 10.



The foundations are very shallow, just a bit of home mixed concrete under the 6 main posts as this is where all the weight is transfered. This is a pier and curtain foundation wall, laid to look dry but with a bit of lime mortar filling the cracks and hopefully preventing bigger visitors from making home under the suspended floor



The joinery is almost all mortice and tenon drawbored. The mortices are roughed out with this timber boring machine (or when I needed to get a move on a chainsaw mortiser) and cleaned up with a 1.5" chisel.



This particular post uses an extremely old method of joinery and is called an English tying joint (also a gunstock joint - maybe this planted the idea of the gunstock/diminished door). Traditionally the wide top portion would have utilised the wide flared base of the tree but this is just cut out of the tree as needed. In the picture below, the bit nearest the camera is the top of the post: tenon on the left supports the 18ft plate that supports the roof. The tenon to the right joins to the tieing member of a roof truss and this tying member also joins to the plate via a rather massive dovetail. There will also be 2 or 3 brace pieces joining this post to to plate and truss so there's a lot of joinery and a lot to agonise over before cutting




Post gets dressed



And starts to take shape



Hopefully things start to line up. This shows 3 braces as mentioned above



And the top plates. Most of these are stepped lap joints that seat rafter tails. The join 2nd from right is the dovetail mentioned above though maybe its more a trapezium


This was a fun bit seeing if everything would come together.





And then flat packed until final raising

 

[AndyT]

This does look like great fun. I'm especially pleased to see someone using a beam boring machine - such a pleasingly efficient tool.

 

[NickM]

Great stuff!

 

[Cabinetman]

Wow! Absolutely brill. Looks like you really know what you’re doing.

 

[Accipiter]

Welcome @Planeiron ... Pleased to have come across your post for 'diminished style' doors. I'm now more educated than I was. Looking forward to the WIP/photos on the door - along with the continued ones for the cabin . Interesting stuff

 

[Planeiron]

The joints would probably stay together as is but the pins/treenails/pegs draw everything up tight and keep things as tight as possible through the tremendous amount of shrinkage that occurs. I started making these pins with whatever free snippets of time I had toward the end of the main frame joinery. They're all riven with the froe from end cuts from a previous frame so the wood is seasoned in contrast to the green oak timbers. Froe whacked with a rustic caveman mallet. The pins are held in one hand on the simple jig and gradually shaped with the chisel. Most are 3/4 diameter with a few larger 1" for the biggest pieces.

Sill sits on the brick piers. This was the only bit I could do by hand. A previous frame was put up with friends and family but this one was a largely solo operation



The rest was done with a telehandler which explains why the surrounding ground becomes increasingly a mudbath









After the 3 trusses were placed then I could finish off the rafters including a bit of ogham lettering as marriage marks to pair pieces up. The ogham is nice as its quick and simple to chip out and each letter apparently represents a different type of tree





And rafters in place







Major stage complete but it was a pity it then rained solidly for the next number of weeks but no major harm done beyond cosmetic tannic acid run

 

[Mike G]

I've done quite a bit of oak framing, including a number of rooves, but I have never done one where the common joists were oak as well as the principle trusses. It's nice to see. It's also nice to see proper bridles at the ridge. People who don't work with green oak probably don't grasp just how much frames move after they've been fitted, and bridles are there to resist twisting.

It'd be nice to see the joint between the ties and the roof plate (and storey posts)....a classic of British framing. You use the same chamfer stops as I do. Again, very nice to see.

As an aside, the half-height horizontal member between widely spaced studs immnediately tells me you are to the west of the country (of course I knew this already!). That detail doesn't really exist here in East Anglia, where close-studding is the norm. The dividing line between the two styles is generally along the line of the Great North Road (now the A1).

Edit.

I nearly didn't read this thread, as I thought it was about the theory of making a particular door.

 

[Cabinetman]

I’m blown away with this build, superb! As is the view.
Lovely bunch of trenails as they call them here.

 

[wallace]

I think the title needs altering I was just meandering through a door thread and bam, oak framed creation. What is the story behind it? What are the demensions? It looks quite small or the timbers are really big.

 

[Planeiron]

I've done quite a bit of oak framing, including a number of rooves, but I have never done one where the common joists were oak as well as the principle trusses. It's nice to see. It's also nice to see proper bridles at the ridge. People who don't work with green oak probably don't grasp just how much frames move after they've been fitted, and bridles are there to resist twisting.

The oak certainly moves and twists and checks but I suppose that's called character. As you know, it's lovely to work in its green state although it demolishing steel if you forget to wipe/oil.

It'd be nice to see the joint between the ties and the roof plate (and storey posts)....a classic of British framing. You use the same chamfer stops as I do. Again, very nice to see.

I don't remember hearing the term "storey post" before though they have quite a few names. Maybe also jowled posts? Wonder where "storey" comes from?

You'll know what these are but here's the tie at top (hypotenuse of the triangle that forms the truss supporting the roof). The tie helps prevent spread of the outer walls under load but in this case a lot of the load is handled by the 3 x trusses and there shouldn't be much spread. Some frames will have a lot of thrust if they are constructed of primary rafters only. Depends what you put on to keep the rain out e.g shingles or corrugated vs slate or clay.

Vertical is the tying "storey" post. The post has a tenon connecting the tie (teasle tenon: no idea where that name comes from either) and you can see hole where the treenail goes through. The visible tenon at the left, perpendicular the tie tenon, connects the plate and is also treenailed. The plate also connects to the tie via the dovetail. There are a tonne of variations on this dovetail connection but this is here to prevent thrust: to prevent that post being pushed left under load. In this case the truss takes care of most of that and the roof is relatively light anyway. The end of the tie in the picture is square but its cut later in line with the rafters and rise of the roof. And the brace helps prevent racking.


The brace below has significantly altered shape since drying out and doesn't appear as nicely connected but I've no concerns about it


Here's diagram showing the internals of this area

As an aside, the half-height horizontal member between widely spaced studs immnediately tells me you are to the west of the country (of course I knew this already!). That detail doesn't really exist here in East Anglia, where close-studding is the norm. The dividing line between the two styles is generally along the line of the Great North Road (now the A1).

Edit.

I nearly didn't read this thread, as I thought it was about the theory of making a particular door.

The variation and quirks between areas are what make all joinery fascinating.

I’m blown away with this build, superb! As is the view.
Lovely bunch of trenails as they call them here.

Thanks!

I think the title needs altering I was just meandering through a door thread and bam, oak framed creation. What is the story behind it? What are the demensions? It looks quite small or the timbers are really big.

Apologies for the misleading title. I didn't mean to go off topic but the weak link is that the door will be part of this frame eventually. The footprint is only 10 x 16ft. The design changed along the way (like this thread). I came into possession of a load of old rosemary clay tiles and intended these to go on the roof. The original roof plan wasn't going to support that so I thought about making king post trusses and then ended up ditching the king trusses and clay tile idea. Maybe this final roof could've supported the load but I couldn't find anyone that could make a calculation and I got cold feet.

 

[Cabinetman]

Feel sure that you could park a couple of Tanks on that roof!
But if you’re not keen you could use Shingles/shakes?

 

[Mike G]

Yep, that's the joint! Great to see that being done the traditional way. It's a classic......a post, a plate and a tie all meeting at the same point, and all tied in neatly with good joinery. It's one of the defining joints of British oak framing, in my view (along with common joists into a bridging joist).