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Old bandsaw,probably C.d.monninger,manufacture

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Old bandsaw,probably C.d.monninger,manufacture

Postby Scaron » 14 Oct 2021, 15:46

I appreciate difficulty in giving precise answer without seeing the machine but could anyone suggest power required to drive it? Band wheels are 24 inch diameter, driven pulley is 10 inch (flat pulley) and all I have, power wise is a 3 horse (3 phase) motor running at 720 r.p.m. Any suggestions would be very much appreciated.
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Re: Old bandsaw,probably C.d.monninger,manufacture

Postby kirkpoore1 » 14 Oct 2021, 19:26

Scaron:

If you want to stay with the current motor, you could use a variable frequency device or inverter rated for the output voltage and amps on your motor. These convert single phase power to three phase.

Alternatively, I'd say a 2 hp single phase motor would be adequate. You will need to size your pulleys to get the same surface speed given the RPM of the new motor. Here is a calculator to help you do that:

http://vintagemachinery.org/math/sfpm.aspx

You will also want to get a motor starter with overload protection sized for your new motor.

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Re: Old bandsaw,probably C.d.monninger,manufacture

Postby Trevanion » 14 Oct 2021, 21:09

Hello Scaron, Welcome to the Woodhaven :)

Well, I think you came to the right place to ask, does it look anything like this one out of my catalogues?

Image

I personally suspect that C.D. Monninger didn't actually make their own machinery and that they were bought in from a different manufacturer, although I could be wrong, the people who would know for definite are long dead.

So to your machine, generally for cutting wood you want the rim-speed of the wheels to be somewhere between 4000-5000 feet per minute, which on 24" wheels your circumference would be 75.4"

4000 x 12 = 48000 inches / 75.4 = 636RPM
5000 x 12 = 60000 inches / 75.4 = 795RPM

So realistically you want your wheel RPM to be about 650-800RPM for efficient woodcutting, so realistically your 8-pole motor would simply need a 10" flat pulley to achieve about the right speed at a 1:1 ratio, it should be powerful enough for the job if you have a three-phase supply.
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Re: Old bandsaw,probably C.d.monninger,manufacture

Postby 9fingers » 14 Oct 2021, 21:19

Trevanion wrote:Hello Scaron, Welcome to the Woodhaven :)

Well, I think you came to the right place to ask, does it look anything like this one out of my catalogues?

Image

I personally suspect that C.D. Monninger didn't actually make their own machinery and that they were bought in from a different manufacturer, although I could be wrong, the people who would know for definite are long dead.

So to your machine, generally for cutting wood you want the rim-speed of the wheels to be somewhere between 4000-5000 feet per minute, which on 24" wheels your circumference would be 75.4"

4000 x 12 = 48000 inches / 75.4 = 636RPM
5000 x 12 = 60000 inches / 75.4 = 795RPM

So realistically you want your wheel RPM to be about 650-800RPM for efficient woodcutting, so realistically your 8-pole motor would simply need a 10" flat pulley to achieve about the right speed at a 1:1 ratio, it should be powerful enough for the job if you have a three-phase supply.


Furthermore if you don't have a 3 phase supply, you can use an inverter to generate 3 phase from a single phase supply with the added bonus that the inverter can be set to run the motor at a different speed to optimise the cutting speed.

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Re: Old bandsaw,probably C.d.monninger,manufacture

Postby Scaron » 16 Oct 2021, 17:19

Many thanks to members Kirkpoore and Trevannion for taking time to reply to my query. Your suggestions have been very helpful and my best option is probably one of them, namely the one to one drive by adding 10 inch pulley (these cast iron pulleys cost the earth) to motor shaft as I already have one.Other option is using another, also 3phase, motor running at 1450rpm with the 3.5 inch pulley but that may be too fast as I am not a little bit afraid of the damage I could do with the press of a button. Your picture of the 24 inch Monninger is interesting and I think mine is similar in build (the main body, anyway) except for the size of table,mine being 24 inch square and the blade guards. Mine came with wood, not very well made, guards which I did away with.The only wood part I kept was the front cover which is original and in good condition, having CD Monninger, St Anna Works in raised lettering in brass. It appears to be an older model than your catalogue one because the shaft bearings are the plain (sleeve type?) not ball type, if it is a Monninger. I say that because I was intrigued to learn that the company did not manufacture all their machinery but that is not surprising when you consider the number of items in the catalogue,so regrettably, it appears I will never know for sure who the manufacturer really was.Maybe the missing plate would have indicated. Anyway, whoever the maker was did a fine job.It’s a very sturdy machine. If and when I get it going, I don’t expect to get a lot of use from it but at least I could justify having it in my possession for so long without using it, and I would thank you once again for your help.
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Re: Old bandsaw,probably C.d.monninger,manufacture

Postby Andyp » 16 Oct 2021, 17:40

Hi Scaron and welcome to the forum.

if you have a moment why not hop over to the Welcome (Introductions) board and tell us a little about yourself.
A few photos to accompany any posts always goes down well, be they images of workshop, past projects, current projects or just planned projects.
cheers

Andy

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Re: Old bandsaw,probably C.d.monninger,manufacture

Postby Trevanion » 16 Oct 2021, 18:03

Scaron wrote: having CD Monninger, St Anna Works in raised lettering in brass. It appears to be an older model than your catalogue one because the shaft bearings are the plain (sleeve type?) not ball type, if it is a Monninger.


Oh that's interesting, does it look anything like my plaque that I picked up the other day? 8.5" wide and 4" tall.

Image

You could date it by looking at what the office address is on the plaque if there is one. We've figured out that Monninger had offices at Clerkenwell Road at least up until 1905, then they moved to 124 & 126 Clerkenwell Road afterwards, the directories show that they were there in 1921 but they could've been there sooner than that. It's only a suspicion I have that they didn't make their own machines, there is a possibility that they could've but they were more known as a tooling company specialising in bandsaws and circular saws than a machinery manufacturer.

Being a plain bearing machine it is going to be older than the 1920s anyway, which is when ball bearings became more prevalent and quite quickly replaced the plain bearing, the bandsaw pictured is from the 1935 catalogue, which a fact I missed was that is states at the bottom of the page "Speed, 650 Revs". I would be concerned about bearing play with a plain bearing and I would recommend it's worth checking that they are in good condition before running the machine.
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Re: Old bandsaw,probably C.d.monninger,manufacture

Postby Scaron » 18 Oct 2021, 18:06

That brass plate you have is similar to the one on the wheel cover, exactly the same size,picture of which,along with some others, I will attempt to send.(This is the first time I have done this on the internet)So,assuming the saw is one of the old variety, mainly from the plain bearing, should it be run at a slower speed than 4000 ft. p.m. The drive shaft was replaced with a new one a while back so there is no movement at all there, however, would there be a danger of overheating? I am thinking that there is more friction in a plain bearing than ball type. Should I set it up with speed between 2000 to 3000 ft. p.m. or would that make it too inefficient? Or maybe install ball bearings? Your comments,as always, are received gratefully.
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Re: Old bandsaw,probably C.d.monninger,manufacture

Postby Trevanion » 18 Oct 2021, 19:36

Scaron wrote:So,assuming the saw is one of the old variety, mainly from the plain bearing, should it be run at a slower speed than 4000 ft. p.m. The drive shaft was replaced with a new one a while back so there is no movement at all there, however, would there be a danger of overheating? I am thinking that there is more friction in a plain bearing than ball type. Should I set it up with speed between 2000 to 3000 ft. p.m. or would that make it too inefficient? Or maybe install ball bearings? Your comments,as always, are received gratefully.


I'm not very well versed with plain bearing machines but I do know that they need to be kept well-lubricated and not ever run dry, but they do indeed work well and there shouldn't be a problem running it at 720RPM, especially with light and intermittent use.
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Re: Old bandsaw,probably C.d.monninger,manufacture

Postby kirkpoore1 » 18 Oct 2021, 22:05

Scaron:

It's possible that your bearings are any one of three times: Babbitt, which is a poured bearing; sleeved (probably bronze), which is a tube bored to the clearance needed for your shaft; or plain iron. The latter is the oldest type and almost certainly not used on your saw, which by appearances is probably 1880 or later and most likely after 1900. Kept oiled, an iron bearing will still last a long time. I have a set of iron bearings on my tenoner, which is probably about 140 years old, and still runs fine.

For babbitt and bronze sleeve bearings, it's most likely that you simply need to keep them oiled. I give the babbitt bearings a few drops of oil on each machine that I have with them each time I use them. I have some motors with bronze sleeve bearings which use a ring oiler to dip into a reservoir and carry oil up onto the shaft. These can also run a very, very long time as long as there is oil in them.

Some low speed babbitt bearings use grease, but I don't recommend that if you have a choice.

Can you take some closeups of your bearings? It may be best for them to be cleaned, new wicks applied, and (for babbitt) shims removed. Taking some closeups after wiping down the outsides and getting the excess gunk off will let us see them.

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