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Set of dining chairs

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Re: Set of dining chairs

Postby AndyT » 21 Oct 2021, 18:37

That does look like a very sensible use of time and spare bits of wood.

Much better than finishing a dozen, all a bit wrong!
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Re: Set of dining chairs

Postby Steve Maskery » 08 Feb 2022, 17:57

I wouldn't blame you if you had forgotten all about these. The truth is, I got a bit disheartened, the mockup was all wrong, Too wrong. Then I had some other stuff on and so it has sat in the workshop, mocking me, since my last post. But I've steeled myself for another go and have made progress.

The were two main problems with it. The back was too narrow, making the seat very severely tapered, and the back was too low. It was actually exactly the same height as my existing chairs, but because the crest rail is not actually at the top of the leg, visually the chair was shorter. These are supposed to be high-back chairs, the clue is in the name, is it not?

Over the weekend, I went to visit a friend who had bought a new set of dining chairs. Ercol. A bit conservative, but very nice. I took some key measurements of theseat rails and remodelled my own. then I used the existing back legs as a starting point to make two new ones, several inches taller. Again all pocket-screwed together.

new mockup.JPG
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You can see that the taper is less severe

new mockup closeup.JPG
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Fortunately I made the former for the back, oversize, it's still big enough

former.JPG
(202.24 KiB)


The side rails are obviously tapered to give the trapezium shape I need, but vertically I had cut them square. It makes the chair back lean out too much

new mockup too far back.JPG
(303.89 KiB)


By adjusting the angle of the back end of the side rail, I can bring it more upright

new mockup a bit better.JPG
(305.67 KiB)


I think it is still too laid back, TBH. But changing that angle a tiny bit moves the top of the leg a great deal, so it needs to be done carefully. It'll have to wait until tomorrow now, I've had enough.

But progress has been made. I'm feeling a lot happier about this now than when I woke up yesterday. When I get it spot on, I'll edit my Sketchup model (again) and then start on the real thing.

(Just previewed this post and I see that the rotation gremlins are still at large :( ).
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Re: Set of dining chairs

Postby Mike G » 08 Feb 2022, 18:26

I know yours is a curve, Steve, and mine is straight, but if you take a line from the top inner corner to the top outer corner of the back above the seat and measure the angle off vertical, I'd make very sure it wasn't more than 7.5 degrees. With a curve like yours, I'd be inclined to get it nearer 5 degrees, I reckon. I must have measured 50 chairs to arrive at this figure. That's the range of suitable angles for a straight back, I reckon...5 degrees to 7.5 degrees.
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Re: Set of dining chairs

Postby Steve Maskery » 08 Feb 2022, 20:46

I think you are spot on, Mike. I haven't measured it, but my existing chairs are pretty much all right in that respect, so my plan is to match them as well as I can.
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Re: Set of dining chairs

Postby Steve Maskery » 09 Feb 2022, 13:43

It occurred to me, at 3am (don't ask), that I don't need to tweak my mockup any more. I need to draw new rods for this, do I can do that on the rod, I don't need to fiddle with the joint on the mockup itself.
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Re: Set of dining chairs

Postby Mike G » 09 Feb 2022, 14:30

There's a list pinned to the back of my mock-up, and, like you, I've no intention of adjusting the mock-up but will take it directly to my patterns.
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Re: Set of dining chairs

Postby AJB Temple » 09 Feb 2022, 15:11

This discussion about seat back angles and so on has made me wonder. Billions of chairs have been made so this must be a well known set of parameters. WoodHaven gives this: https://www.woodmagazine.com/must-have- ... le-seating

The article however gives a fairly wide set of parameters for things like seat angle, seat back angle and relative angle. What fits one person ideally may not suit another I suppose.
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Re: Set of dining chairs

Postby Steve Maskery » 09 Feb 2022, 16:47

I think that's a really good primer, Adrian, thank you.
As well as the individual, seat angles can change according to the intended use. An office chair might have a high, flat seat and back that is only slightly raked, whereas a nursing chair will have a low, tilted back seat and a more raked back. Dining chairs are somewhere in between, I think. The trouble is, if, like me, you make a dining chair only once every 25 years, you don't get enough experimental practice to find out what is perfect for yourself! :)
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Re: Set of dining chairs

Postby Robert » 09 Feb 2022, 16:59

For my chairs I went to furniture stores and sat in various dining chairs until I found one that was comfortable. I then asked if I could borrow a chair to see how it went with an existing table. They agreed for a deposit. Took the chair home and took all the measurements I needed and then returned it.

Theory is good but you can't beat sitting on the chair to see how it works for you.
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Re: Set of dining chairs

Postby Craig Salisbury » 09 Feb 2022, 20:44

Dont know if this helps or not, i didnt see anything specific for dining chairs.

IMG_20220209_193623.jpg
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IMG_20220209_193649.jpg
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IMG_20220209_193700.jpg
(135.86 KiB)


Cheers
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Re: Set of dining chairs

Postby Steve Maskery » 22 Apr 2022, 20:17

Wakey-wakey!
Yes it's been a while. I got distracted with other stuff, which, in a way, was a blessing. Time to think. I made another mock up, and apart from being a couple of inches too high, was much better proportioned. But the fact that I had intended to get these done by C******* (2021...) gives you an idea of how far behind I am.

Well I bought some English Oak from MAC. Big boards. I could have sworn I took some photos of them, but I can't find them, and now they are cut up. But they were a struggle to lift and one of them I simply couldn't lift on my own. There are rather more flaws in the wood than I would have liked, in particular surface checking. One would expect some, of course, but some of this has rendered the picee unuseable. I shall probably still machine them all to size and use the duff ones for machine setup.

I've ended up cutting out 14 legs (2 were rejects, a third is iffy, but I haven't enough to make a third replacement, I'll have to fix it somehow). Here are some not-very-interesting pictures.

thicknessing legs (Medium).jpg
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rejects (Medium).jpg
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12 leg blamks (Medium).jpg
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These are the blanks. I still need to bandsaw and flush trim them to my template.

I am actually wondering if I might have been better laminating them over a former. I have the kit and I've done that kind of stuff before, so it would not have been too big of a challenge. Yes there would be a mountain of veneers to make, but it's just graft rather than difficulty. There is no doubt that it would produce a strong, flawless leg, and there would probably be less waste, but I think they would lose some character along the way. Anyway, it's too late now.
Last edited by Steve Maskery on 23 Apr 2022, 00:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Set of dining chairs

Postby Cabinetman » 22 Apr 2022, 23:18

Donkeys years since I used any Elm so unsure what your seeing and feeling there Steve, my most recent attempt to chop Elm firewood was a disaster due to the twisting interlocking grain. Agree about not laminating the legs, it wouldn’t look right compared to the way you’ve done it. Ian
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Re: Set of dining chairs

Postby Steve Maskery » 04 May 2022, 20:41

Ian - Oak, my friend, oak :) But MAC has (well I hope he still has...) some of the most fanstastic elm you are ever likely to see.

Back to the chairs.

I found some footage, from which this still is taken. The boards were big and heavy. I needed some help from my neighbour to get them onto the trestles.

bandsawing outside.jpg
(318.87 KiB)


So after machining to 34mm I attached my OSB template with a couple of screws, to one of the rejects. The result was not good. Too much flex and a very poor surface finish. I'm glad I tried it though, I learned a lot.

So I used my second reject but used DS tape all over it. Much better, from a security point of view, but totally impossible to separate workpiece and template afterwards! In fact, I broke the template. So I made a new template out of 18mm MRMDF and that is much more rigid. I've also learned to use DS tape just enough to hold the two together, and not a square millimetre more.

So instead of covering the whole surface with DS tape, I'm using it in 12mm strips - all along the back legs and only in the tapered areas of the front legs.

DS tape on front leg (Medium).JPG
(247.14 KiB)


DS tape to back leg (Medium).JPG
(212.3 KiB)


The legs are then bandsawn close to the finished line using my Notched Single-Point Bandsaw Fence

template bandsawing.jpg
(268.15 KiB)


With the template still attached it's over to the Router Table. I have long had adouble-bearing flush-trim bit. It pretty good. But It's getting in need of a good sharpening and the surface finish is not what it once was. It's also a straight bit, so it cuts with a chopping motion. OK but not great.

I happened to be talking with Eric the Viking (joke coming up later...) who told me he has a Wealden onewhich has a curved cutting edge to give a shear cut and he extolled its virtues. So I gulped and ordered one. £36. Ouch. But is it wonderful. It's not quite as long as my cheapie yellow Chinese one, 50mm c.f. 2.5", but it is more than adequate for anything I'm likely to need it for.

two flush trim cutters (Medium).JPG
(216.58 KiB)


The surface finish is as good as a sharp and plane. Beautiful.

I didn't always get the order of the tapers right on the front leg. Ideally I want to have a flate surface down on the table. But I also want to trim with the grain, for a tearout-free cut. If I cut the two tapers in the wrong order, I end up like this

template bandsaw front leg closeup (Medium).jpg
(300.16 KiB)


It's not the end of the world, but it is a bit less stable, so I have to be careful.

On the router table, I use either the top bearing or the bottom bearing, depending on which way the grain is going.

flush trimming leg.JPG
(267.89 KiB)


I've paired the legs up as best I can. There is quite a variation in colour, but I'm fairly happy with the pairings. I might replace one of the front legs, I have enough spare.

So I now have 12 front legs, all nicely tapered and acceptably the same :) I also have 4 back legs done, another 8 to go.
Last edited by Steve Maskery on 05 May 2022, 20:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Set of dining chairs

Postby NickM » 05 May 2022, 11:42

Looking good.
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Re: Set of dining chairs

Postby Steve Maskery » 11 May 2022, 17:48

Well I've finally machined all 12 back legs, sort of.
Even with the Wealden cutter I was not getting the surface finish I was hoping for. I have ripples and a step where the job is turned over when the grain changes direction.

After a very helpful conversation with Alan at Wealden, I discovered the problem(s). Neither were the cutter.

1. The axis of my router is not truly vertical WRT the table. It would not matter as much if I could simply follow the template all round, but when I turn it over, the very slight lean is working the other way. So that accounts for the step.

2. My RT is not flat. It was when I made it, but it's not flat now. If I put a straight edge over it, I can see light under the middle. Best part of mm, I'd say, so it's not trivial. This would not matter if the template was straight, but it is curved. This means that when lying on the table, it is supported at both ends of the table, but not supported at all at the cutter. And that means it can wobble, not by much, but enough to give me this rippled surface. And up near the top, where it is quite narrow, and when most of the weight is off the table, it is very difficult to maintain stability. I've actually taken a bit out :( I can losr a bit of it in the taper, but not all. I'll have to fair it, but 2mm out of 30 is going to be very noticeable. If I had any more stock I'd make a replacement, but I don't.

So I'm really glad this part is over. It's taken weeks, because I can't wear my contact lenses for very long these days, so everything I want to do that requires being able to see properly, such as driving or workshop, has to be crammed into 3 or 4 hours. 5 hours is a long day and I pay for it afterwards. I do have specs, and they are better than nothing, but they are not a lot better than nothing, particularly when it is dark. I've just bought my first White Stick for nighttime use. Not the sort of milestone one wants to pass, is it?

Heigh-ho.
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Re: Set of dining chairs

Postby sunnybob » 11 May 2022, 20:04

Cant see from the picture, but are you using a KREG router plate?
I started with one, it warped. To give Kreg their due, they sent another free of charge to me here in Cyprus. but that warped after a short while, so I went to an incra alloy plate.
f it is Kreg, email their customer service and they will send you another.
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Re: Set of dining chairs

Postby Steve Maskery » 11 May 2022, 20:18

It's not the plate that is the problem, it is the table top it sits in.
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Re: Set of dining chairs

Postby AndyT » 12 May 2022, 10:15

Sounds like extra helpings of grit and persistence are going to be a feature of this project. Good to see you taking it all on - it looks like you are much stronger than you were a couple of years ago, despite your difficulties.

And if that diagnosis of the routing issues was all from Wealden on the phone, that's top quality customer service.
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Re: Set of dining chairs

Postby Pete Maddex » 12 May 2022, 15:48

Steve if you want to use my router table give me a shout, I am off work after my op so at home this week and next.

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Re: Set of dining chairs

Postby Steve Maskery » 12 May 2022, 19:27

That's very kind of you Pete, thank you. It probably won't be necessary, but if I get really stuck I'll give you a shout.
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Re: Set of dining chairs

Postby Steve Maskery » 01 Jul 2022, 23:37

I cut that massive pew seat into manageable sizes and I think I can get everything out of the one board. Well, not the legs, of course, but everything else. I though there would be loads spare, but in fact I've had to be careful. The main problem is that there is a groove running the whole length, which limits the arrangement of the thicker parts. I want the rails to be 25mm full so that I can rout angled mortices for loose tenons. (Yes, that does mean that I have changed my mine (again) about how I am going to do the joinery. Whilst I do have the best tenon jig in the whole wide world, it is currently in hospital due to a floor/jig interface problem. But I have a Domino machine, I'm gonna to use it and nobody's gonna stop me. Yee-hah.)

So I've got 12 rail blanks out, finishing at 25mm. I set up my tablesaw with the blade canted to 6.7º in a Zero-Clearance Insert. If you want to know how I got such precision, read my thread on how to use a Sine Bar.

tilting tablesaw blade_Moment (Medium).jpg
(225.39 KiB)



The rails have to be cut as pairs, and the front end is different angle to the back end, but, once I had it clear in my head which way round everything had to be, all was well. A makeshift stop ensures that they are all the same length.

setup for front end cut_Moment (Medium).jpg
(196.98 KiB)


Please don't turn your nose up at the use of a Domino machine. apart from the ease of use, one of the great advantages for angled tenon work is that the tenon still has straight grain. I could have cut them from the solid, but you always run the risk of short grain, which this avoids.

I set my Domino machine to the angle of the rail end, set the cutting depth to maximum 28mm. On the Domino there are three different waggle settings and a couple of locating pins, so the one machine can produce a variety of mortice sized. I have a Waggleomer to help me to visualise which combination of waggles and pins to use for any given situation. For the back end I chose medium waggle, overlapping using the pins.

waggleometer (Medium).jpg
(237.2 KiB)


dominoing the mortice (Medium).JPG
(190.45 KiB)


For the front end I used maximum waggle, but keeping the mortice closer to the bottom edge of the rail than the top edge, so that I don't run the risk of blowing out the endgrain at the top of the leg. Good heavens, I was thinking ahead!

After using the Domino I discovered that I had a problem. I have designed the rail to be deep at the back (for a nice substantial loose tenon) but less deep at the front (for a bit of elegance). But the mortice would be exposed if I cut the curve to my original design, so I've simply moved the start of the curve forward by an inch or so to give me a bit of safety.

So it was then a case of some more template bandsawing, template routing and drilling some holes for screwing down the seats and I now have a beautiful set of matched rails which are finished bar the sanding.

finished rails 1 (Medium).JPG
(176.51 KiB)


finished rails 2 (Medium).JPG
(194.08 KiB)


I am very, very pleased with them. And no cockups at all along the way. None at all. :eusa-liar: :eusa-liar:
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Re: Set of dining chairs

Postby Malc2098 » 02 Jul 2022, 08:50

I think I can smell porkies! ;)

Nice, otherwise.
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Re: Set of dining chairs

Postby Steve Maskery » 02 Jul 2022, 10:40

Malc2098 wrote:I think I can smell porkies! ;)


Actually there were not cockups, plural. But I did have a bit of a slip when the template shifted, in the wrong direction, of course, on one of the workpieces, so that one is a mm or two narrower than the rest, but you can't tell unless you put them side-by-side

The important bits, the angles and the mortices, are bang on.
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Re: Set of dining chairs

Postby Cabinetman » 02 Jul 2022, 11:35

Coming on well Steve, will be buying my first Domino machine very soon so that was particularly interesting.
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Re: Set of dining chairs

Postby Stuart » 02 Jul 2022, 12:07

Coming along nicely Steve.

I wouldn’t turn my nose up at dominoes at all. In fact we’re currently on holiday in the (very wet!) Lake District and as we were passing Peter Halls workshop I popped in for a look round and they were in the process of making a set of eight dining chairs using dominoes. So if the big guys can do it ………
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