It is currently 28 Mar 2024, 22:21

First drive of an electric car

Hang up your Chisels and Plane blades and take a load off with a recently turned goblet of your favourite poison, in the lounge of our Gentlemen's (and ladies) Club.

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby 9fingers » 05 Dec 2021, 15:50

That’s going to help adoption then ffs
So presumably we will have a re-run of the vcr game. The most popular (vhs) getting chosen over the technically superior (beta-max)
Waitrose of course will fit Tesla connector to their charging points :lol:
Bob
Information on induction motors here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dBTVXx ... sp=sharing
Email:motors@minchin.org.uk
User avatar
9fingers
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 10038
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 20:22
Location: Romsey Hampshire between Southampton and the New Forest
Name: Bob

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby spb » 05 Dec 2021, 15:53

The charging connector question is more complicated than it seems, and yet not as bad as it looks. The below is as far as I remember things, so might be a little bit off or out of date, but:

There are slow, fast, and rapid chargers. Slow means your regular 13A three-pin plug, on single-phase AC, giving roughly 3kW. Fast means roughly 32A, still from a domestic supply but using a dedicated charge point, either single-phase or three-phase, giving either 7kW or 22kW. Rapid can be AC - 63A three-phase gives 43kW - or DC, going up to 200kW or so. These are the ones you'll find at motorway services and the like, as they draw far too much power for a domestic supply.

Initially, Type 1 connectors were used for single-phase AC charging, and CHAdeMO was created as a DC charging standard. CCS combines a Type 1 connector with two additional pins for DC rapid charging, so can deliver either AC or DC via the same connector. Type 2 replaces Type 1, and permits three-phase charging. CCS2 adds DC capability to Type 2.

Japan has an existing network of Type 1 AC charge points, and CHAdeMO DC charge points, so Japanese manufacturers tend to provide those two connectors. For those, you'll likely use a Type 1 connector for home charging, and CHAdeMO at public rapid chargers.

Europe and the UK have generally adopted Type 2 and CCS2, so you'll most likely see just a CCS2 connector on the car. A home charge point will have a Type 2 connector, which plugs in to the top half of the CCS2 socket and doesn't use the DC pins; a public rapid charger will have a full CCS2 connector which can deliver much more power via DC.

North America, as far as I understand things, is mostly stuck on Type 1, but models produced for the UK market will have UK-friendly charging connectors. Tesla, of course, do their own thing and I've not kept up with what that is these days.

Most UK public chargers will have either Type 2 (for slow and fast AC chargers), or a choice of CCS2 or CHAdeMO for rapid and super-rapid DC chargers.

The upshot: if you need to carry an adapter in the car, it'll almost certainly be a single one to convert Type 1 to Type 2. Unless you take your car to the US or Japan.
spb
Nordic Pine
 
Posts: 569
Joined: 27 Sep 2020, 20:25
Location: Cambridge
Name: Stephen

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby RogerS » 05 Dec 2021, 15:54

9fingers wrote:...
Waitrose of course will fit Tesla connector to their charging points :lol:
Bob


Meanwhile, at the Aldi car park :lol:

aldi electric.png
(1.43 MiB)
If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door.
User avatar
RogerS
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 13291
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 21:07
Location: Nearly finished. OK OK...call me Pinocchio.
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby 9fingers » 05 Dec 2021, 16:04

A quick look at the toolsatan catalogue shows 7kW single phase and 22kW 3 phase charging outlets all with the statement that they fit all EVs. Presumably they omitted “with an appropriate cable/connector”
I like the idea of rfid built into some to stop scallys nicking power from your socket.
Bob
Information on induction motors here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dBTVXx ... sp=sharing
Email:motors@minchin.org.uk
User avatar
9fingers
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 10038
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 20:22
Location: Romsey Hampshire between Southampton and the New Forest
Name: Bob

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby Cabinetman » 05 Dec 2021, 16:31

Aldi carpark one- Surprised that’s still allowed, blind people tripping hazard etc. I can foresee terraced properties having swing out booms like some really old petrol pumps, the alternative is a lot of cables running across pavements, what fun trying to park outside your own home to recharge. Ian
Cabinetman
Old Oak
 
Posts: 3196
Joined: 11 Oct 2020, 07:32
Location: Lincolnshire Wolds + Pennsylvania
Name: Ian

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby Woodster » 05 Dec 2021, 17:11

I believe BMW offered a wireless induction charger for one of their EV’s a couple of years back. I’m surprised Tesla don’t have it but maybe it’s only a matter of time. I’ve chosen my EV, a Tesla model Y, I just don’t want to spend that much on a car! :lol: I don’t need the 0-60 in 3.5 seconds but it might be fun on occasion. I’ll have to wait for the $25K Tesla:

https://www.tomsguide.com/uk/news/tesla ... e-and-more
User avatar
Woodster
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2558
Joined: 26 Jan 2017, 13:17
Location: Dorset
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby 9fingers » 05 Dec 2021, 17:46

I really do struggle with inductive charging having been involved with a few projects over the years at work.

Put simply inductive transfer of energy involves a current causing a magnetic field and then that magnetic field to induce a current in another coil.

Take a iron cored transformer. which works pretty well but both coils are wound on the iron core and the core is bent back on itself to form a ring so very little of the magnetic field can escape.
Break that magnetic circle and the efficiency drops. Cut the iron into two parts one in the charger and one on the battery and the efficiency drops again. Open up the gap between the two iron cores and the power transfer drops off again with I think a cubic power law - double the gap, 1/8 of the power transfer. Offset the axis of one piece of iron to the other and only the common area can transfer power (bit of a simplification but you get the idea)

Common examples think of electric toothbrush. the charger has a peg protruding, coated in plastic and the toothbrush has a recess again plastic coated. This scheme solves the common area problem but the two layer of plastic still lose power. This manages to charge an AA battery overnight.

Move on to phone charging. Much larger common area, about the same separation due to a couple of plastic layers but a "phoneful" of power can be transferred in a few hours.

Now think about the car situation. A pad in the road covered by a tough covering say 10-20mm thick, the under body clearance of the car say 100mm minimum, how on earth can 100 -300 kW be transferred in less than an hour? Ok the car could lower its receiver to road level but you would still need to position the car in X and Y axes quite precisely even if you can sort out the Z axis.
You can remove the iron core and go for ferrite, raise the frequency which will improve things but a high power magnetic field can't be too high frequency or too strong without risk to pacemakers or indeed or radio systems that we are so reliant on. 125kHz is used by car keys to start the motor for example 13MHz for RFID used to authenticate the car charging and contactless payments etc.

I can see the huge attraction for wireless charging but the practical problems are enormous too.
I'm not being defeatist as I used to make my living by trying to achieve the near technical impossibilities but this is a killer problem to solve.
Bob
Information on induction motors here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dBTVXx ... sp=sharing
Email:motors@minchin.org.uk
User avatar
9fingers
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 10038
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 20:22
Location: Romsey Hampshire between Southampton and the New Forest
Name: Bob

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby Woodster » 05 Dec 2021, 18:17

This is the BMW version from a couple of years back.

Image

Many other companies seem to be developing them.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/elec ... v-chargers

Edit: Just found this:

https://www.pluglesspower.com/learn/mai ... -charging/


.
Last edited by Woodster on 05 Dec 2021, 18:25, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Woodster
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2558
Joined: 26 Jan 2017, 13:17
Location: Dorset
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby RogerS » 05 Dec 2021, 18:23

Wonder when the first fatality of someone wearing a pacemaker walking over one of these pads might be ?
If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door.
User avatar
RogerS
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 13291
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 21:07
Location: Nearly finished. OK OK...call me Pinocchio.
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby Woodster » 05 Dec 2021, 18:27

RogerS wrote:Wonder when the first fatality of someone wearing a pacemaker walking over one of these pads might be ?


That’s easily dealt with! :lol:

Image
User avatar
Woodster
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2558
Joined: 26 Jan 2017, 13:17
Location: Dorset
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby RogerS » 05 Dec 2021, 18:28

Woodster wrote:
RogerS wrote:Wonder when the first fatality of someone wearing a pacemaker walking over one of these pads might be ?


That’s easily dealt with! :lol:

Image


Excellent :lol:
If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door.
User avatar
RogerS
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 13291
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 21:07
Location: Nearly finished. OK OK...call me Pinocchio.
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby AJB Temple » 05 Dec 2021, 19:09

I believe most new tech pacemakers (since about 2015) are shielded and include circuitry to protect the device and hence wearer from electromagnetic fields.
Don't like: wood, engines, electrickery, decorating, tiling, laying stone, plumbing, gardening or any kind of DIY. Not wild about spiders either.
User avatar
AJB Temple
Sequoia
 
Posts: 5431
Joined: 15 Apr 2019, 09:04
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby the bear » 06 Dec 2021, 23:12

I've not commented on this thread before as its not something I know much about, though I'm sure in the near future we'll end up with an electric car.

However we had a bit of an incident in my lane last week. One of the houses further up the lane had their electric car literally explode on the drive. Luckily no one in it and no one hurt. I wasn't home but I'm told by the people opposite it was like an exploding shell (he's ex forces so should know) noise wise and a hell of a fire. I'me told it wasn't even plugged in, just sat there. I can see the damage to the house through a bit of a sparse hedge, All the windows on that side blown in and now boarded, melted frames, roof tile damage, rafter ends burnt, bricks all black, possibly a crack in the wall hard to tell for sure, been told they will be out of the house for 9 months. I don't actually know them but I do know their next door neighbour well who has shown me a photo of the car after being put out and all thats left is the chassis.
Car is a BMW and about a year old, not sure what model. BMW collected it a few days later in hazmat gear and asking people not to photo it (I bet they were)
I thought this was one of those urban myths but clearly not having seen the aftermath for myself.

Mark
the bear
Sapling
 
Posts: 448
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 21:50
Location: Surrey
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby Woodster » 07 Dec 2021, 00:13

BMW have a history of car fires, ICE ones at least. Maybe they’re adding EV’s to the list?

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/ca ... afety-risk
User avatar
Woodster
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2558
Joined: 26 Jan 2017, 13:17
Location: Dorset
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby RogerS » 07 Dec 2021, 05:22

the bear wrote:I've not commented on this thread before as its not something I know much about, though I'm sure in the near future we'll end up with an electric car.

However we had a bit of an incident in my lane last week. One of the houses further up the lane had their electric car literally explode on the drive. Luckily no one in it and no one hurt. I wasn't home but I'm told by the people opposite it was like an exploding shell (he's ex forces so should know) noise wise and a hell of a fire. I'me told it wasn't even plugged in, just sat there. I can see the damage to the house through a bit of a sparse hedge, All the windows on that side blown in and now boarded, melted frames, roof tile damage, rafter ends burnt, bricks all black, possibly a crack in the wall hard to tell for sure, been told they will be out of the house for 9 months. I don't actually know them but I do know their next door neighbour well who has shown me a photo of the car after being put out and all thats left is the chassis.
Car is a BMW and about a year old, not sure what model. BMW collected it a few days later in hazmat gear and asking people not to photo it (I bet they were)
I thought this was one of those urban myths but clearly not having seen the aftermath for myself.

Mark


Wow...I'd certainly not buy a BMW EV as a result of this.
If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door.
User avatar
RogerS
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 13291
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 21:07
Location: Nearly finished. OK OK...call me Pinocchio.
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby Lons » 07 Dec 2021, 12:05

That car explosion story is horrific. :shock:

Several thousands of home owners in the north east would have been in trouble with an EV as they had no power for 11 days. One of my friends is one of those and told me "thank god I bought two hybrids instead of the EVs I looked at". Power loss included the local fuel station and town centre charging points as well though not for such an extended period.

We've had several spells of electricity cuts and expecting more when the next storm hits today/tomorrow. I have no worries that my car will start every time I need it to as the tank is full. :)

Did anyone watch the BBC program slamming Tesla and the cobalt mining practices recently, pretty damning though the BBC were definitely biased to be fair ( Panorama 27th Nov). Also the prog a few days ago of Toyota and Japan producing hydrogen using coal and shipping back and forwards between them and Australia to "fiddle" emission stats.

All is not as it seems. ;)
I have a degree in faffing about (It must be true, my wife says so)
Lons
Old Oak
 
Posts: 1688
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 21:48
Location: Northumberland
Name: Bob

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby Woodster » 07 Dec 2021, 18:03

RogerS wrote:
Wow...I'd certainly not buy a BMW EV as a result of this.


Car fires aren’t uncommon. Vauxhall and Toyota had problems a few years back. These days it seems to be Ford and BMW.

Some time ago it was laptops with Sony batteries in them. Let’s not forget there are also about 300 house fires a year in the UK due to domestic appliance faults, and in spite of this some folks are still daft enough to switch them on when they go to bed. :o
User avatar
Woodster
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2558
Joined: 26 Jan 2017, 13:17
Location: Dorset
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby RogerS » 07 Dec 2021, 19:04

Woodster wrote:
RogerS wrote:
Wow...I'd certainly not buy a BMW EV as a result of this.


Car fires aren’t uncommon. Vauxhall and Toyota had problems a few years back. These days it seems to be Ford and BMW.

Some time ago it was laptops with Sony batteries in them. Let’s not forget there are also about 300 house fires a year in the UK due to domestic appliance faults, and in spite of this some folks are still daft enough to switch them on when they go to bed. :o


Yebbut I doubt I'll be sitting inside my tumble dryer when it decides to catch fire. And domestic appliance faults catch fire. They don't explode. And with a car fire, you stand a chance of drawing to a halt and getting out.

Sony laptops and BMW EV cars exploding have one thing in common. Lithium batteries.
If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door.
User avatar
RogerS
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 13291
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 21:07
Location: Nearly finished. OK OK...call me Pinocchio.
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby Woodster » 07 Dec 2021, 19:50

RogerS wrote:
Sony laptops and BMW EV cars exploding have one thing in common. Lithium batteries.


It’s still relatively early days for EV’s.


“ Sodium instead of lithium.
The solution could be sodium-ion batteries, whose development has recently made astonishing progress. In the foreseeable future, they could replace the lithium-ion batteries currently used not only in electric vehicles, but also in smartphones and laptops.”


https://www.dw.com/en/the-batteries-of- ... a-54707542

Will they be any safer? Who knows, but Lithium batteries have been deemed to be safe enough to date.
User avatar
Woodster
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2558
Joined: 26 Jan 2017, 13:17
Location: Dorset
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby Lons » 07 Dec 2021, 23:13

Sodium instead of lithium


Which is why Tesla have allegedly recently signed a 5 year with the cobalt suppliers i.e. lithium batteries ;)
I have a degree in faffing about (It must be true, my wife says so)
Lons
Old Oak
 
Posts: 1688
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 21:48
Location: Northumberland
Name: Bob

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby Woodster » 09 Dec 2021, 11:28

User avatar
Woodster
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2558
Joined: 26 Jan 2017, 13:17
Location: Dorset
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby RogerS » 09 Dec 2021, 11:55

And the other side of the coin from the same article

In July, battery electric vehicle registrations again overtook diesel cars, but registrations of petrol vehicles far outstripped both.

and from another graph posted earlier

28% of UK consumers willing to buy an EV over the next five years. There simply is NO major imperative that is encouraging people in the UK to buy, it seems to me, Price is a big factor.
If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door.
User avatar
RogerS
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 13291
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 21:07
Location: Nearly finished. OK OK...call me Pinocchio.
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby Lons » 09 Dec 2021, 17:21

RogerS wrote:And the other side of the coin from the same article

In July, battery electric vehicle registrations again overtook diesel cars, but registrations of petrol vehicles far outstripped both.

and from another graph posted earlier

28% of UK consumers willing to buy an EV over the next five years. There simply is NO major imperative that is encouraging people in the UK to buy, it seems to me, Price is a big factor.


And another factor is that diesel sales stats don't include hybrid cars. I've been looking over the last few months and the vast majority of new diesels available or that you can specify are mild hybrid versions, at least in the premium sectors, what the articles don't mention is that the shortage of new cars during this year has meant that sales of nearly new have gone through the roof as people weren't prepared to wait 6 to 9 months for cars that weren't even fully equipped due to chip shortages.
My salesman friends at Audi and BMW told me they could sell every decent low mileage car they could get their hands on and were desperate to buy mine from me at an inflated price and without me needing part ex against new.
I have a degree in faffing about (It must be true, my wife says so)
Lons
Old Oak
 
Posts: 1688
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 21:48
Location: Northumberland
Name: Bob

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby RogerS » 09 Dec 2021, 17:36

On a different aspect - vehicle safety - I read in today's Times that one of the Renault EV cars received a ZERO- rating from Thatcham. Not having a dig it being an EV but one would have thought that these days manufacturers would have crash tests sussed.
If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door.
User avatar
RogerS
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 13291
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 21:07
Location: Nearly finished. OK OK...call me Pinocchio.
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby Woodster » 10 Dec 2021, 00:11

I’m not a particular fan but the best selling car of any type in Europe for September 2021 was apparently the Tesla 3. And that’s cars built in the USA and shipped over. Obviously the price hasn’t put that many people off yet?
The Tesla Giga Factory in Berlin will be starting up soon so I wonder what impact that will have on sales?

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/content/ne ... -in-europe

I’m hoping the sub $25K Tesla or something similar is available by the time I change my car in a couple of years.
User avatar
Woodster
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2558
Joined: 26 Jan 2017, 13:17
Location: Dorset
Name:

PreviousNext

Return to The Woodmangler's Retreat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests