It is currently 28 Mar 2024, 21:46

Wood burner grate split

Hang up your Chisels and Plane blades and take a load off with a recently turned goblet of your favourite poison, in the lounge of our Gentlemen's (and ladies) Club.

Re: Wood burner grate split

Postby novocaine » 23 Nov 2021, 19:46

3 hours labour +materials and rates. Used to 20-30 quid an hour for skilled. Depends if hes tig brazing, gas brasing or welding it. Been years since i qouted for a cast repair but around the 100-150 quid mark would be cheap. You arent paying for 3 hours, you're paying for a lifetime of experience to do it and do it well. Now id consider how much to make a new one from plate.
Carbon fibre is just corduroy for cars.
novocaine
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2560
Joined: 26 Nov 2020, 10:37
Name: Dave

Re: Wood burner grate split

Postby novocaine » 23 Nov 2021, 19:49

Or they might be nice and do it in 2 hours without watching it cool.
Carbon fibre is just corduroy for cars.
novocaine
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2560
Joined: 26 Nov 2020, 10:37
Name: Dave

Re: Wood burner grate split

Postby Andyp » 23 Nov 2021, 20:15

With a phone call and a emailed image I’ve been quoted 200 euros, about 170 quid.
I do not know which method he will use but will ask if I go and see him.

Thanks again
I do not think therefore I do not am.

cheers
Andy
User avatar
Andyp
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 11718
Joined: 22 Jul 2014, 07:05
Location: 14860 Normandy, France
Name: Andy

Re: Wood burner grate split

Postby novocaine » 23 Nov 2021, 20:30

Not a bad guess considering how long its been.
Carbon fibre is just corduroy for cars.
novocaine
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2560
Joined: 26 Nov 2020, 10:37
Name: Dave

Re: Wood burner grate split

Postby Sheffield Tony » 23 Nov 2021, 22:14

Can't see a crack like that occuring in steel. Would it not be easier to make a steel replacement from a bit of plate with a rib welded on for the log bars. A lot easier to weld than cast. Even I could just about do it :lol:
User avatar
Sheffield Tony
Nordic Pine
 
Posts: 558
Joined: 25 Nov 2020, 21:08
Location: Bedfordshire
Name: Tony Hague

Re: Wood burner grate split

Postby Cabinetman » 23 Nov 2021, 22:36

Nice little woodwork project, make a pattern and have one cast – or two depending on costs, probably drill the holes afterwards though. Ian
Cabinetman
Old Oak
 
Posts: 3196
Joined: 11 Oct 2020, 07:32
Location: Lincolnshire Wolds + Pennsylvania
Name: Ian

Re: Wood burner grate split

Postby Malc2098 » 23 Nov 2021, 22:52

Cabinetman wrote:Nice little woodwork project, make a pattern and have one cast – or two depending on costs, probably drill the holes afterwards though. Ian



Wanna see a modern day patternmaker's shop, with a familiar face?



(For those like me with Flash issues….)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktx__dsgU0c
Malcolm
User avatar
Malc2098
Sequoia
 
Posts: 7209
Joined: 03 Jul 2016, 11:10
Location: Tiverton
Name: Malcolm

Re: Wood burner grate split

Postby Andyp » 24 Nov 2021, 08:12

Great vId Malc. Thank you.

And now I know what a Ranalah English Wheel is.

Fascinating project.
I do not think therefore I do not am.

cheers
Andy
User avatar
Andyp
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 11718
Joined: 22 Jul 2014, 07:05
Location: 14860 Normandy, France
Name: Andy

Re: Wood burner grate split

Postby Andyp » 24 Nov 2021, 08:18

Sheffield Tony wrote:Can't see a crack like that occuring in steel. Would it not be easier to make a steel replacement from a bit of plate with a rib welded on for the log bars. A lot easier to weld than cast. Even I could just about do it :lol:


My tiny wee brain is telling me it was made it that material for a reason and I am inclined to do the same. I still struggle with conversational french on the phone but when I go and see Monsieur Messi I will find out more but I feel repair is the way to go and if anything else on the stove goes it will be nice to have a had a relationship with someone who can fix/repair.
I do not think therefore I do not am.

cheers
Andy
User avatar
Andyp
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 11718
Joined: 22 Jul 2014, 07:05
Location: 14860 Normandy, France
Name: Andy

Re: Wood burner grate split

Postby novocaine » 24 Nov 2021, 08:29

Sheffield Tony wrote:Can't see a crack like that occuring in steel. Would it not be easier to make a steel replacement from a bit of plate with a rib welded on for the log bars. A lot easier to weld than cast. Even I could just about do it :lol:


http://corrosionlab.com/Failure-Analysi ... d-line.htm

"On this note low carbon steel should not be selected for use in design and
construction of boilers, exhaust and furnace. "

https://www.scirp.org/pdf/jmmce20111400007_53195359.pdf

granted, it's industrial, but the same applies

one of the jobs I support but don't do is fatigue analysis and NDT in conventional power stations. cracking of carbon steel is very much a thing, although in pipework, it's often the welds that go first. :D
Carbon fibre is just corduroy for cars.
novocaine
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2560
Joined: 26 Nov 2020, 10:37
Name: Dave

Re: Wood burner grate split

Postby Sheffield Tony » 24 Nov 2021, 09:48

Probably half of stoves on the market are made of steel, the other half cast. The grate in my stove is about 10mm steel plate. The rest of the stove is steel. It will be fine.

Cast iron is surely more likely to crack. Steam locomotives used steel boilers. They might not be immune to cracking issues, but nobody in their right mind would use cast iron ?
User avatar
Sheffield Tony
Nordic Pine
 
Posts: 558
Joined: 25 Nov 2020, 21:08
Location: Bedfordshire
Name: Tony Hague

Re: Wood burner grate split

Postby novocaine » 24 Nov 2021, 10:24

Sheffield Tony wrote:Probably half of stoves on the market are made of steel, the other half cast. The grate in my stove is about 10mm steel plate. The rest of the stove is steel. It will be fine.

Cast iron is surely more likely to crack. Steam locomotives used steel boilers. They might not be immune to cracking issues, but nobody in their right mind would use cast iron ?


Steam locomotives set the requirements for the pressure regulations for a reason. the first one blew up. :lol:
if they could use cast, though possibly would have, but it wasn't to do with the heat that they didn't, it was already well known that cast iron couldn't hold high pressure, they would have had to thicken the walls excessively meaning an almost impossible to move object. they did use cast iron for fireboxes on stationary steam generators though, because it was cheaper and quicker than plate and rivet for a time. anyways, that's by the by. :)

life expectancy of a cast stove is 20 years, not sure I believe it, but most fitters think a steel stove will only last 10.

I didn't say it would fail in that time, but neither would cast be expected to fail either. I was meerly pointing out that thermal induced fatigue is still something, even in extruded steel form.

I also said previously that there is no reason not to make one in steel except the initial outlay on materials.

Andy, when you do talk with him, it might be worth asking him to skim the from lip so it doesn't catch on the door, as this is possibly the initial failure mechanism.
Carbon fibre is just corduroy for cars.
novocaine
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2560
Joined: 26 Nov 2020, 10:37
Name: Dave

Re: Wood burner grate split

Postby Andyp » 24 Nov 2021, 11:19

Will do Dave, thanks.

You and Tony and others have been very helpful in improving my knowledge but you have confused me a bit though.
Using the word cast on it’s own has me scratching my head.
My grate is, I think, made of cast steel, which is not the same as cast iron, and certainly not the same as steel plate.
I know the difference is all to do with the carbon content.
I have no idea what the rest of the stove is made of. It is inset into a chimney so not easy to see the outside, just the door and the internals.
The slate fireplace is an excellent heat sink. Last log, a big oak one, went in at about 8.30pm last night, I shut down the air air vents to minimum at about 10.30. Temperature in room 23°c Overnight frost for the first time this year. At 8.30 am stove door still warm, room temp 18.5°c.
I have nothing to compare this with as I had never lit a log fire, indoors, before we moved here. I am happy with it’s performance and certainly do not want to compromise it by bodging a repair. Replacing the whole stove would certainly not be cheap.

3F4CC722-A9C8-40FC-ABA4-0004C058472F.jpeg
(282.32 KiB)
I do not think therefore I do not am.

cheers
Andy
User avatar
Andyp
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 11718
Joined: 22 Jul 2014, 07:05
Location: 14860 Normandy, France
Name: Andy

Re: Wood burner grate split

Postby novocaine » 24 Nov 2021, 11:41

iron, very low carbon content.
steel, iron with added carbon, many different grades of it depending on carbon content.

cast iron and cast steel, one has carbon chucked in it at the foundry whilst it's molten.

little difference in terms of how to weld/braze it. higher content carbon (which this will not be) can lead to issues, but that's the same whether it's cast or extruded.

difference between cast steel and extruded steel is the grain structure. there is another option which looks like cast but isn't called powdered metal sintered. it's powder, it's put in a mould. it's heated till it binds.
it looks like cast when it's broken, it acts like cast when machined, it is a bugger to work with. :) all the gears in your tools will be PMS.

your stove. it will most likely be steel box, the door will most likely be cast.
Carbon fibre is just corduroy for cars.
novocaine
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2560
Joined: 26 Nov 2020, 10:37
Name: Dave

Re: Wood burner grate split

Postby Sheffield Tony » 24 Nov 2021, 13:27

Remember that "iron" is made from the ore in a blast furnace with lots of coke = carbon. So although what comes out may be called "iron" it has plenty of carbon. Cast iron 2-4% C, much higher than even high carbon tool steels (~1%), and brittle. Steelmaking involves burning away the carbon (in a Bessemer converter traditionally, or a basic oxygen furnace now) to get a controlled alloy of iron and carbon (and other alloying components) that is steel.

The only reason I suggested a steel replacement is that it is much easier to weld than cast iron, which involves pre-heating and controlled cooling to avoid risk of cracking. Think of getting a cracked metal plane fixed - it can be welded, but it is a skilled job. And that isn't on a great big flat plate like this ! A mild steel will more likely just distort (possibly presenting problems of its own !)

I'm sure someone will fill me in if my understanding of iron / steels is incorrect.
User avatar
Sheffield Tony
Nordic Pine
 
Posts: 558
Joined: 25 Nov 2020, 21:08
Location: Bedfordshire
Name: Tony Hague

Re: Wood burner grate split

Postby Andyp » 01 Dec 2021, 13:08

Bugger this is worse than I thought.

Will go see the welder later. Just took the grate out and on closer inspection there are two more cracks. Will have to talk to him about replacement methinks.

20211201_130002 copy.jpg
(509.36 KiB)
I do not think therefore I do not am.

cheers
Andy
User avatar
Andyp
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 11718
Joined: 22 Jul 2014, 07:05
Location: 14860 Normandy, France
Name: Andy

Re: Wood burner grate split

Postby Andyp » 01 Dec 2021, 20:09

Just got back

20211201_195031.jpg
(249.69 KiB)


20211201_195144.jpg
(345.04 KiB)


Was interested to see him listening to the steel after each zap with the welder. If it was cracking with the thermal shock he would hear it. Not sure what rods he used but he got though a whole pack of 10, 30 euros worth! He did as suggested ie cutting a V in each surface then weld. He maintains leaving the welded raised and not flush would make the joint stronger. Took a pair of them 1 3/4 hrs.

Hope it lasts a few more years
I do not think therefore I do not am.

cheers
Andy
User avatar
Andyp
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 11718
Joined: 22 Jul 2014, 07:05
Location: 14860 Normandy, France
Name: Andy

Re: Wood burner grate split

Postby AJB Temple » 01 Dec 2021, 21:26

It's come out pretty well considering the state it was in. Fingers crossed now.
Don't like: wood, engines, electrickery, decorating, tiling, laying stone, plumbing, gardening or any kind of DIY. Not wild about spiders either.
User avatar
AJB Temple
Sequoia
 
Posts: 5431
Joined: 15 Apr 2019, 09:04
Name:

Previous

Return to The Woodmangler's Retreat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 34 guests