How many ways to throw dust?

[Windows]

I got a new plunge saw and was surprised at how much dust it was throwing around. So I covered the arbor hole with tape. Still so much dust. Oh! Better plug the vacuum in to the saw. Still too much dust. Another cut, but this time I turned on the vacuum. That’ll fix it. But no. Why so much dust? Unplugged the vacuum from the saw to pick up the dust. Took another cut. OMG. So. Much. Dust. Plugged the vacuum back in to the saw. Another cut, and more dust. Finally noticed that the stupid collar on the vacuum hose that twists to leave a big hole was in the OPEN position. I never use it. It moved by itself. Closed the hole. Now much less dust.

 

[Trevanion]

A lot of people cover the hole in the side of the tracksaw to cut down on dust, to the point where people make special 3D-printed plugs for them. However, I'm not convinced this actually helps with minimising dust because for efficient extraction you need adequate throughput of air, by closing the hole off you're suffocating the extractor and forcing it to pull through the narrow slot that the blade is plunged through.

I have a Makita plunge saw with a Karcher WD5 extractor/hoover, and I barely have any dust when I use it unless the bag starts getting full.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Blocking off holes does not reduce the amount of dust - it still has to go somewhere. The secret to any DX system is to collect the dust as close as possible to the point of creation.
But I agree that DX on SCMS or indeed any cross-cut saw, is probably the most difficult to do well.

 

[SamQ aka Ah! Q!]

Steve, Windows is on a plunge saw. Very different animal to an SCMS.

 

[Steve Maskery]

OK, but the principle still stands. Just as much dust is created and it has to go somewhere.
BTW, you can reduce the amount of sawdust created in the first place by using a thin-kerf blade. Going from a 3.2mm kerf to a 2.8mm kerf will save you 12.5%.
S

 

[Steve Maskery]

I have the Festool plunge saw kit, with track and a Festol shopvac. I can honestly say that the amount of dust created is minimmal. That is because the sawdust is created right where it matters.
S
PS I hadn't twigged the plunge saw bit until it was pointed out, I was thinking chopsaw. But the rest still holds (except your plunge saw probably never had a 3.2mm blade on it in the first place. Shut up, Steve).

 

[SamQ aka Ah! Q!]

I have the Festool plunge saw kit, with track and a Festol shopvac. I can honestly say that the amount of dust created is minimmal. That is because the sawdust is created right where it matters.
S
PS I hadn't twigged the plunge saw bit until it was pointed out, I was thinking chopsaw. But the rest still holds (except your plunge saw probably never had a 3.2mm blade on it in the first place. Shut up, Steve).

You're human Steve!! I too made an embarrassing horlicks on here just a couple of days ago; failing to to follow the old mantra: "make sure brain is engaged before uttering".
Me's a dingbat.

 

[Windows]

My jokey thread about my idiocy in failing to get dust collection working 5 times has met with some very earnest responses. I appreciate them all. Thanks fellas.

The new saw is a Makita DSP600. That’s the plunge saw that takes two 18V batteries. I think it’s got a 1.85 mm blade. When I’ve managed to do it right, it’s connected to a Festool vac; using the Bluetooth remote to start & stop the vac.

Frequently I have access to the Festool TSC 55. Quite similar. On first impressions, I prefer the Festool overall, but it’s still early days.

I’ve tested the TSC 55 with the hole covered and without and I’m convinced that dust collection is improved by covering the hole. I certainly take the point that the hole could be helpful in allowing air in. Maybe for people that use their saw for 8 hours straight it even helps with cooling. In my situation though, I saw a noticeable reduction in overall dust with the hole covered, so that’s how I run that saw. Haven’t done those experiments with the Makita yet.

Random things I have noticed about the Makita that I prefer to the Festool:
1. Battery attachments
2. The brake
3. The scoring function

Festool battery placement has to be quite precise and doesn’t have very satisfying auditory or tactile feedback when seated. Makita batteries slot in really easily and make a satisfying click. I love using Makita batteries.

The Makita brake is serious. I don’t know if there’s an actual time difference to the Festool brake but you release the trigger on the Makita and that blade stops spinning. It’s still a smooth stop though - not jarring.

The Makita has a depth stop at 3? mm that you can engage and disengage with a little plunger button. Very simple, cheap to implement. There’s nothing complicated about it, but the Festool doesn’t have it. You can buy another Festool saw with a scoring blade though.

I got the Makita to replace my Lidl plunge saw which won’t fit on Makita rails. I’ve had a Makita rail hanging on my wall for over a year waiting for a saw to go with it. I like the Makita rail. Extra length compared to the equivalent Festool and slides easily. A 1.5 m rail is just big enough for me to do my secondary glazing project without workarounds.

 

[toolsntat]

A lot of people cover the hole in the side of the tracksaw to cut down on dust, to the point where people make special 3D-printed plugs for them. However, I'm not convinced this actually helps with minimising dust because for efficient extraction you need adequate throughput of air, by closing the hole off you're suffocating the extractor and forcing it to pull through the narrow slot that the blade is plunged through.

I have a Makita plunge saw with a Karcher WD5 extractor/hoover, and I barely have any dust when I use it unless the bag starts getting full.

Certainly true especially in relation to planer thicknessers where airtight extraction hoods suck all the air past the rotating cutter block, puts the Vulcan bomber engine howl to shame.
Cheers, Andy

 

[Mike]

A lot of people cover the hole in the side of the tracksaw to cut down on dust, to the point where people make special 3D-printed plugs for them. However, I'm not convinced this actually helps with minimising dust because for efficient extraction you need adequate throughput of air, by closing the hole off you're suffocating the extractor and forcing it to pull through the narrow slot that the blade is plunged through.

I started with a Bosch circular saw and a DeWalt SCMS. Both were excellent at chip and dust creation and distribution, so they were best suited for outside use. I used the DeWalt saw in my basement shop, but if I was cutting a lot of wood, I took it to the garage. I was limited in the amount of time I could use it in the shop before taking a long break to clear the dust and used a Dylos DC1700 air quality meter to monitor the hazardous dust level.

Both tools are long gone and were replaced with Festool equivalents. I distinguish between chips and dust, and don't cover the vent on the track saw. If it was a good idea to make that part of the saw solid without a port, the Festool engineers would have done it.

I still see chips from both saws, but am confident the dust is properly collected. On large projects, I still use the Dylos, but have not needed to take any breaks to clear the air.

 

[Windows]

Found a new way to throw dust around. I have to use an adapter to attach the Festool vacuum hose to my Makita DRT50 router. I noticed that the adapter fits the saw dust port, so thought I’d save a second or two by not removing the adapter when I moved the vacuum to the saw. The adapter clogged quickly with chips and dust from the saw and the rest of the dust got expelled from the sides of the saw. Brilliant.

 

[AJB Temple]

Festool have a new one out. Two motors. Scoring function uses one.

 

[Windows]

Festool have a new one out. Two motors. Scoring function uses one.

The TSV 60 K? Or something newer? I’d ruled that model out because I wanted cordless. Then I ruled out the other Festool stuff because I couldn’t justify the cost this time.

 

[Windows]

Continuing the Festool & Makita comparison, I’ve now had enough use of the Makita saw to have another freshly-formed & lightly-held opinion:

The Makita track seems better than the Festool track in a few ways. The anti-tip feature is useful. The underside of the Makita track is grippier. The extra length is useful.

I’m having a few doubts about the relative battery life of the two saws though. I’ve been using dual 5ah batteries in both. Today I managed to exhaust the Makita batteries cutting oak flooring (right at the end of the day - managed to cut the last piece without charging, but had to restart the saw a few times). I’ve done similar work with Festool and always had power left. Might just be that I was efficient so made more cuts today, but it makes me wonder. Has anyone seen a comparison of work output between the Festool TSC 55 & Makita DSP600?

 

[AJB Temple]

The TSV 60 K? Or something newer? I’d ruled that model out because I wanted cordless. Then I ruled out the other Festool stuff because I couldn’t justify the cost this time.

Yes. I don't see an advantage with cordless tracksaws myself. They always need a vacuum hose hooked up and they are far more bulky than any cord. I use a big Festool vacuum and plug my Mafell track saw into that so the vac runs and stops automatically. Almost zero dust from the saw and the scoring setting works well - but obviously needs two passes, unlike the Festool, which scores ahead of the cutting blade. No big deal to slide along the track twice.

 

[Windows]

What you say about corded makes a lot of sense. That’s what I was doing before I got a cordless. It’s all about the bit that’s most annoying to me. The size and weight of the battery doesn’t bother me at all, but the extra cord during cutting (and potentially plugging and unplugging two things to the vacuum instead of just one) is a step too far. I get distracted by it. I occasionally get to cut stuff outside with no cords and even with home DIY tasks that can’t be moved to the workshop, it’s nice not to have to look for power points and extension cords. It’s not a logical thing really. I fully expected to think corded was the way to go - charging batteries is also a bit annoying - but when it came to a purchase decision my preferences became clear.

 

[Dr.Al]

I went for cordless too. If I had a big workshop, I think I would have gone for corded - nice and easy to plug into a vacuum cleaner power-take-off and catch all that dust (rather than having to design a radio one for the cordless).

With a workshop as small as mine, most of my tracksaw use is on trestles in the garden & I don't bother with the vacuum cleaner: I just let it fire all the sawdust out of the dust port. Being cordless is then really convenient.

 

[AJB Temple]

I went for cordless too. If I had a big workshop, I think I would have gone for corded - nice and easy to plug into a vacuum cleaner power-take-off and catch all that dust (rather than having to design a radio one for the cordless).

With a workshop as small as mine, most of my tracksaw use is on trestles in the garden & I don't bother with the vacuum cleaner: I just let it fire all the sawdust out of the dust port. Being cordless is then really convenient.

I would not do that Al. If you don't use the vac, my experience is your cut is not as clean. This is from using maybe 100 sheets of ply to clad and panel a big kitchen / diner, make dozens of cupboards and doors and liners. The vac stops clogging and you get super clean cuts. Even outside, dust clogs the air and your lungs. Don't risk it.

 

[Dr.Al]

I would not do that Al. If you don't use the vac, my experience is your cut is not as clean. This is from using maybe 100 sheets of ply to clad and panel a big kitchen / diner, make dozens of cupboards and doors and liners. The vac stops clogging and you get super clean cuts. Even outside, dust clogs the air and your lungs. Don't risk it.

I do wear a dust mask when using the tracksaw. I'm surprised by the unclean cut assertion though. I've only chopped up perhaps 8-10 sheets of plywood, plus quite a bit of hardwood so nowhere near your usage, but I've never seen a clog and always got clean cuts (and the vast majority of the cuts I've done were without a vacuum attached). Regardless, most of what I use it for now is chopping down big planks of hardwood. The edges of those will get hand-planed anyway so clean cuts aren't that critical.

 

[RogerS]

Re battery life. Manufacturers claims are often ludicrously optimistic and would fall foul of the ASA’s guidelines. I have a very useful electric cart. The blurb used to state ‘hours of use’. Rollocks. When I complained the support person admitted it was 20 minutes but did give me two more batteries. Highlighted the lies that some YouTube reviewers pedal as well.

The ASA had a few words with them and now their promo makes no reference to how long a charge will last

 

[Windows]

I would not do that Al. If you don't use the vac, my experience is your cut is not as clean. This is from using maybe 100 sheets of ply to clad and panel a big kitchen / diner, make dozens of cupboards and doors and liners. The vac stops clogging and you get super clean cuts. Even outside, dust clogs the air and your lungs. Don't risk it.

Those are important points to consider. Vac is useful/essential for clearing the cut with a straight bit on my router, but I’ve cut a lot of solid 20 mm oak floorboards with the Festool track saw without extraction and it worked great. I always wear a mask even with unpowered hand tools. Power tools get hearing and eye protection as a bonus.

 

[Dr.Al]

Re battery life. Manufacturers claims are often ludicrously optimistic and would fall foul of the ASA’s guidelines. I have a very useful electric cart. The blurb used to state ‘hours of use’. Rollocks. When I complained the support person admitted it was 20 minutes but did give me two more batteries. Highlighted the lies that some YouTube reviewers pedal as well.

The ASA had a few words with them and now their promo makes no reference to how long a charge will last

The battery life on the Makita tracksaw has always impressed me. Of all the times I've used it (starting with fully charged batteries), I've never run out of juice on a single project. I made a couple of fairly big plywood drawer units for the garage (making the frames & all the drawers in one go) & the batteries (there are two in the tool) had only dropped one (out of four) bars when I'd finished.

The Makita angle grinder, on the other hand, chews through batteries like they're going out of fashion. On big job I can have to swap (5 Ah) batteries 4 or more times.

 

[Windows]

I went for cordless too. If I had a big workshop, I think I would have gone for corded - nice and easy to plug into a vacuum cleaner power-take-off and catch all that dust (rather than having to design a radio one for the cordless).

With a workshop as small as mine, most of my tracksaw use is on trestles in the garden & I don't bother with the vacuum cleaner: I just let it fire all the sawdust out of the dust port. Being cordless is then really convenient.

Festool’s Bluetooth battery connection to their vacuum is one of the nice things about their system. It works very well and I’m missing it right now with the Makita saw plus Festool vacuum. I guess I’d be in a similar situation with a Festool saw and Makita vacuum. This is how they try to tie you in to one brand.

 

[Dr.Al]

Festool’s Bluetooth battery connection to their vacuum is one of the nice things about their system. It works very well and I’m missing it right now with the Makita saw plus Festool vacuum. I guess I’d be in a similar situation with a Festool saw and Makita vacuum. This is how they try to tie you in to one brand.

The Makita ones (at least of the generation I bought) had the annoying feature that you had to choose whether to get a "Bluetooth vacuum start" version when you bought the saw and then had to buy the Bluetooth module as an optional extra. I don't really understand why they did the two versions of the (module-less) tools, given that the Bluetooth module was an optional extra anyway. If I wanted to buy a Makita vacuum cleaner and link it to my saw, it wouldn't be enough to just buy the Bluetooth module for the saw, I'd also have to replace the saw with a different one that had the socket for the Bluetooth module.

With my home-made solution, it works on any (Makita cordless) tool and with any vacuum cleaner so it's a much better (and far cheaper!) option for me.

 

[Windows]

The Makita ones (at least of the generation I bought) had the annoying feature that you had to choose whether to get a "Bluetooth vacuum start" version when you bought the saw and then had to buy the Bluetooth module as an optional extra. I don't really understand why they did the two versions of the (module-less) tools, given that the Bluetooth module was an optional extra anyway. If I wanted to buy a Makita vacuum cleaner and link it to my saw, it wouldn't be enough to just buy the Bluetooth module for the saw, I'd also have to replace the saw with a different one that had the socket for the Bluetooth module.

With my home-made solution, it works on any (Makita cordless) tool and with any vacuum cleaner so it's a much better (and far cheaper!) option for me.

You’ve come up with a really nice solution. I’m using the Bluetooth remote to start the vac currently, but considering my options.

The Makita situation is still the same I think. I bought the never-to-be-AWS version of the saw because there’s no way I’m going to be buying the Makita vacuum when I’ve got the Festool vac and I was price sensitive on this purchase. Makita’s customer experience seems needlessly complicated around AWS. I wonder how many customers they lose to decision fatigue.

 

[AJB Temple]

I do wear a dust mask when using the tracksaw. I'm surprised by the unclean cut assertion though. I've only chopped up perhaps 8-10 sheets of plywood, plus quite a bit of hardwood so nowhere near your usage, but I've never seen a clog and always got clean cuts (and the vast majority of the cuts I've done were without a vacuum attached). Regardless, most of what I use it for now is chopping down big planks of hardwood. The edges of those will get hand-planed anyway so clean cuts aren't that critical.

It depends on how fussy you are (I'm fussy) and on the thickness of the material. I made most of our kitchen out of the highest grade baltic birch ply. I made 22 drawers and a dozen cupboard doors with edges on show whenever in use. Every now and then during cutting a slight chip happens, especially on thinner ply as used for drawer bottoms. On the cupboard doors in particular and all planted draw fronts, I wanted perfect edges. So I was being super fussy. Every cut was scored first and then through cut with about 2mm blade projection. I used a router table to do the grooves for the drawer bottoms and that was a challenge at first as the router is worse than a saw on ply. If I did it again I would do the grooves with the track saw as well.

I found that the cheaper ply we used to make the wall panelling and vaulted ceiling was much more inclined to chip but that didn't matter much as the back is not visible and all cut lines have MR MDF strips covering them.

I agree not an issue on hardwood but I like to use a different blade for that as well.

 

[JamesHow]

Re battery life. Manufacturers claims are often ludicrously optimistic and would fall foul of the ASA’s guidelines. I have a very useful electric cart. The blurb used to state ‘hours of use’. Rollocks. When I complained the support person admitted it was 20 minutes but did give me two more batteries. Highlighted the lies that some YouTube reviewers pedal as well.

The ASA had a few words with them and now their promo makes no reference to how long a charge will last

Once had a 20st client whose electric wheel chair ran out of juice I don't understand it he said it's got 20 miles of range... Not when it's cold and your 20st it hasn't! I had to go and retrieve him and chair in my Volvo estate it was a big heavy thing. Not the client btw!