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A small project with a difficult joint

Dr.Al

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Although I've started the bedside table project, I haven't got very far with it yet. The legs have been planed on two sides and are sitting "in stick" (with some weights on top to try to keep them flat) and I'd like to leave them like that for a little while before finishing planing. It's far too hot at the moment to think about planing all the rest of the wood for the table so I thought I'd do a much smaller and (hopefully) quicker project in the interim.

It started with one of the thinner bits of Sycamore that I'd bought for the bedside table. This one started at about 18 mm thick and I cut a bit off the end yesterday evening with the Ryoba (which was a lot quicker to do than the 40+ mm Sycamore I used for the table legs!)

2026-06-21-01-chopping-up-plank_600.jpg


This is what the plank looked like once it was on the bench (the other side is a lot rougher but I forgot to take a photo of that):

2026-06-21-02-before-planing_600.jpg


After hand planing (both sides) with the #4½ it looked like this:

2026-06-21-03-after-planing_600.jpg


After drawing a pencil line on the edge, I chopped off the bark with my Dozuki...

2026-06-21-04-trimming-off-bark_600.jpg


... and then planed the edge square with the #7:

2026-06-21-05-edge-planing_600.jpg


It was wider than necessary and I was keen to get rid of a knot near the edge, so I drew a pencil line for a rough size guide, chopped the other edge off with the Dozuki again and then used my panel marking gauge to scribe a line on both faces at what felt like the largest width I could achieve from the remnant:

2026-06-21-06-panel-marking-gauge_600.jpg


After planing that edge to the marking gauge lines, I picked a spot for a cross-cut. The aim was to select a bit of grain that was relatively straight for the area immediately around the cut line such that it would still match when closed up again (as a mitre). With the line picked, I carefully chopped it up with the cross-cut Dozuki:

2026-06-21-07-cross-cutting_600.jpg


The shooting board did its thing...

2026-06-21-08-shooting_600.jpg


... and I was pleased to see that the grain lines still matched nicely:

2026-06-21-09-grain-still-matches_600.jpg


That was the easy bit. My plan with this part is to try a type of joint that I've never before attempted, even in scrap wood. Doing it in rather pretty bit of Sycamore with some comparatively soft spalting around the joint area is probably not my smartest idea, but if it all goes wrong I've got loads of Sycamore! It's also a bit thinner than I would have ideally chosen (the planed wood ended up at just over 16 mm thick whereas my initial plan was for about 20–22 mm). I went for the thinner wood in the end purely because I've got loads of it and I think it should be thick enough assuming I can do the joint properly.

The joint I'm alluding to is called a secret mitre dovetail. Arguably it should be called a secret dovetail mitre as the dovetail is the bit that's hidden, but we won't dwell on that. It looks like a challenging joint to cut but I've read a few books on the matter (including Ernest Joyce's Furniture Making book and Charles Hayward's superb Woodwork Joints book; incidentally, Charles Hayward calls it the "mitre dovetail" so obviously doesn't consider it to be a great secret!). I've also watched (and re-watched) David Charlesworth's excellent video on the subject.

Having written copious notes based on those various sources, I have a plan (which will, I think, follow David Charlesworth's method relatively closely).

With the two planks ready to be joined, the first step was lots of marking out, using three marking gauges (one set for slightly over the thickness of the wood, one set for the thickness of the wood minus the thickness of the rebate and one set for the depth of the rebate at the mitre line) and this little Shinwa mitre square, which has the required 135° angle:

2026-06-21-10-marked-shoulders-marking-mitres_600.jpg


That photo looks a bit weird as the plank seems to be enormous, but that's just a perspective trick: the other plank is lying on the bench.

This is what one corner looked like after all the marking up:

2026-06-21-11-lots-of-marks_600.jpg


The marks for the rebate don't quite intersect as they're deliberately offset by a little bit to create a tiny pocket for glue to be squeezed into.

David Charlesworth cut the rebate using a powered mitre saw. I don't have one of them and, after considering a few alternatives, I opted to cut it with a cross-cut Dozuki, taking advantage of the teeth at the tip so I could cut the whole length without worrying about the far end going too deep:

2026-06-21-12-sawing-rebate-end-grain_600.jpg


The cross-grain cut was done in much the same way:

2026-06-21-13-sawing-rebate-cross-grain_600.jpg


Straight off the saw:

2026-06-21-14-sawn-rebate_600.jpg


After chopping the rebate's shoulder line with a chisel, it was time to pare into the end grain. In David Charlesworth's video, he planed a little strip of wood to be slightly thicker than the rebate and then used that as a shelf for the chisel, thereby guaranteeing that the chisel would be going very slightly downhill and not leaving an undesirable lump. I was too lazy to plane a strip of wood, so I just piled up a few steel rules:

2026-06-21-15-pile-of-rules_600.jpg


You can see from that photo that the shoulder line is a bit shabby, with bits of torn-out wood rather than a nice clean end-grain cut. The chisel was freshly sharpened and I took light cuts, but I think the softness of the spalted wood meant that I would have been better using a smaller chisel and minimising the force. I don't think it's an issue so I'm carrying on regardless.

I mentioned before that the the two marked rebate lines didn't quite meet. For that reason, a tiny little lump of wood is left in the corner so as not to inadvertently cut into the mitre line:

2026-06-21-16-left-a-bit-in-the-corner_600.jpg


Up to this point, everything I've done has been done to both of the boards (pin board and tail board); now is the first time the method deviates.

After drawing out the tail/pin pattern in full scale on a piece of paper, I made a little marking guide out of a bit of cardboard packaging and used that to mark the pin board:

2026-06-21-17-cardboard-marking-guide_600.jpg


The pin walls got cut (to the line) with a Dozuki held at about 45°, cutting down to just above the shoulder line and just into the rebate:

2026-06-21-18-sawn-pins_600.jpg


In David Charlesworth's video he saws a little way away from the line and then pares to the line with a chisel (on both pin board and tail board). For through or lapped dovetails I usually saw straight to the line and I figured it would be fine to do the same the pin board. I may follow David Charlesworth's approach when I cut the tails but I'll decide closer to the time.

Next up was to mark a second shoulder line about 0.5 mm closer to the end of the board than the existing one with a combination square and knife. I could then chop to that line (hence leaving a tiny bit for a final clean-up with a freshly sharpened chisel) using a smaller chisel (10 mm or 12 mm if memory serves) with a depth line marked in marker pen on the back of the chisel:

2026-06-21-19-chopping-with-pen-line-on-chisel_600.jpg


Each chop was straight down (so ignoring the dovetail angle) and to full depth.

That left the pin board looking like this:

2026-06-21-20-so-far_600.jpg


The next job is to chop out the angled faces, clean up the bit that's parallel with the rebate line and then do the final cut to the shoulder line. However, it's far too hot in the workshop now so I've called it a day. I'm not sure when I'll get more time on it but I'm pleased with the progress so far.
 
I have a stash of spalted sycamore, and the last thing that would ever cross my mind with it is to try to make proper joints. It's horrible stuff to try to work cleanly. All I can do is wish you the very best, Al, and hope it works out OK. I think you've seen already how crumbly it is. I reckon you might end up trying to glue this with thickened epoxy.
 
I have a stash of spalted sycamore, and the last thing that would ever cross my mind with it is to try to make proper joints. It's horrible stuff to try to work cleanly. All I can do is wish you the very best, Al, and hope it works out OK. I think you've seen already how crumbly it is. I reckon you might end up trying to glue this with thickened epoxy.

The stuff I used to make the drawer box didn't seem that bad & lulled me into a false sense of security I think.
 
Never used sycamore, spalted or otherwise. This stuff doesn't look very 'docile' - Rob

It's generally been a lovely wood to work with. Not as nice as ABW but as native (ish) woods go it's great.

I think it depends how spalted the spalty bit is. The drawer box...

2025-12-20-12-finished-box-with-drawers-open-and-waterfall_600.jpg


... had some lovely patterning (it might not class as spalting 🤷‍♂️ ) but was really nice to chisel.

I couldn't find any photos from of the tail sockets post chopping, but this one was after chiselling a mitred corner, where it behaved impeccably:

2025-09-13-02-chiselled-mitres_600.jpg
 
Yes Sycamore is normally a lovely wood to deal with, hard like Maple, I used to use it for the insides of drawers till I couldn’t easily obtain it anymore. Gives a lovely crisp edge as you’ve shown Dr Al.
 
I finally managed a bit more workshop time this morning. If you remember from the last instalment, the last thing I'd done was to chop straight down parallel with (but not all the way up to) the shoulder line. The next job was to clean up the corners (where the saw didn't reach due to cutting at 45°), which I did in the vice:

2026-07-03-01-paring-the-glue-faces_600.jpg


The glue faces (sides of the sockets) pared nicely, with none of the break-out of the slightly spalted wood that I had on the shoulder chops:

2026-07-03-02-first-face-done_600.jpg


Before doing the final cut along the shoulder line, I decided to pour a bit of thin superglue into the end grain:

2026-07-03-03-thin-superglue_600.jpg


I could then chop down into the shoulder line, using an engineers square to ensure I was ever-so-slightly undercutting the shoulder:

2026-07-03-04-final-shoulder-chopping_600.jpg


There's still some superglue visible in a close-up photo (unsurprisingly given how broken up the surface was) but it's a much smoother finish and there's no superglue on the glue faces:

2026-07-03-05-better-end-grain-finish_600.jpg


Next up was to saw the mitres with a cross-cut Dozuki, keeping well away from the knife line:

2026-07-03-05-sawing-mitres_600.jpg


I decided to make a new mitre jig for this job. I've previously just used lumps of wood with a 45° angle planed (usually on a shooting board) on the end. I thought it would be nicer to have something that goes round the corner so I can attack the mitre from the side rather than the face.

This is one of those few jobs where my (long since sold) table saw would probably have been a preferable option but I really don't miss that saw and it's good to practise the techniques involved in doing things by hand.

I used a bit of oak worktop and my Ryoba to cut a big rebate and to roughly mitre the two ends:

2026-07-03-06-sawing-jig_600.jpg


The carriagemaker's rebate plane then came out to prepare the two reference surfaces:

2026-07-03-07-rebate-plane_600.jpg


I then settled down on a stool and gradually worked at the mitres on each end with my little block plane until the surface was flat (as measured with a steel rule) and at 45° to the reference surface (as measured with a combination square). This was a work-in-progress shot (where it wasn't quite at the right angle yet); the finished shot ended up blurry so I decided to be lazy and just share this one instead:

2026-07-03-08-block-plane-for-mitres_600.jpg


Next up was to pare the mitres. When I've done this before (on mitred dovetails, not secret ones of which this is my first attempt) I've generally fitted the mitre guide overlapping the end and then gradually tapped it back with a mallet after each cut. This time I decided to try David Charlesworth's method, which worked really well. His method is to use bits of card and paper as shims underneath the chisel, gradually reducing the number of layers so that each chisel cut is about the thickness of a piece of paper:

2026-07-03-09-paring-with-paper_600.jpg


That worked really well; each cut was a nice even thickness and felt very controlled. The first mitre done:

2026-07-03-10-pared-mitre_600.jpg


The next job is to transfer the shape of the pins onto the tail board (the long mitre gets pared later).
 
This morning I got on with the tail board. I put some masking tape on the face of the board and then used this set-up to transfer the edges of the pins across to the tail board:

2026-07-04-01-ready-to-transfer-marks_600.jpg


David Charlesworth used a "Robert Wearing tranfer jig" (presumably from one of Wearing's excellent books). The jig consisted of two bits of plywood fixed together with a brace on the back to make sure they were fixed at right-angles to one another.

I've got a fairly well-equipped metalworking set-up, so I just used an angle plate (with a bit of plywood to make sure any slight protrusion of the tail board wouldn't hit the angle plate and stop the pin board from sitting in the right place):

2026-07-04-02-transfer-jig_600.jpg


This is what it looked like after peeling the tape away in the waste areas:

2026-07-04-03-after-peeling-tape_600.jpg


I'd originally put tape on both the end grain and the face, but I realised just before marking up that the tape would cause the pin board to be held slightly off the end grain and that would result in a misalignment (albeit a tiny one), so I removed it before cutting the lines. Before transferring the knife lines across the end grain, I re-fitted a piece of masking tape. I then sawed (at 45°), keeping a little way away from the lines as I wanted to pare these ones (which is what David Charlesworth did and if it's good enough for him then it's fine by me):

2026-07-04-04-extra-tape-and-saw-away-from-lines_600.jpg


Next up was some chisel time, chopping out the waste, using angled cuts so the waste came out without any risk of damage to the tail edges:

2026-07-04-05-angled-chopping_600.jpg


As before, I worked to a second shoulder line and only when everything else was cleaned up did I chop down in the proper shoulder line.

The tails all cleaned up:

2026-07-04-06-chopping-and-paring-done_600.jpg


The edge mitres were dealt with in much the same way as before, except that I used a trick I saw in a Matt Estlea video and shoved a bit of cardboard into the end pin socket. That bit of cardboard catches the saw at the end of the cut and stops it dropping into the tail:

2026-07-04-07-sawing-with-cardboard_600.jpg


Paring the edge mitres was the same as before:

2026-07-04-08-paring-edge-mitres_600.jpg


At this point, it was time to do a test fit:

2026-07-04-09-test-fit_600.jpg


So far, so good. It's goes snugly home most of the way, only stopping because I hadn't done the long mitre yet:

2026-07-04-10-need-to-sort-out-long-mitre_600.jpg


I grabbed another bit of oak worktop and cut a 45° angle in the end (I decided to be lazy and use a tracksaw this time), checking the angle against the face that's set back, being careful to align the angle gauge with the joints running along the worktop piece (as twisting the gauge would result in a mis-reading)::

2026-07-04-11-another-bit-of-worktop_600.jpg


After clamping the tail board in place, it was time to pare the long mitre:

2026-07-04-12-ready-to-pare_600.jpg


David Charlesworth did most of the paring with a chisel and then switched to a shoulder plane for the last couple of cuts. I've never got to the point that I feel very comfortable or confident with a shoulder plane so I decided to just use a chisel for the whole process. This is a work-in-progress shot:

2026-07-04-13-pared_600.jpg


I don't seem to have a photo of the fully pared pin board, but here's the tail board:

2026-07-04-14-pin-board-pared_600.jpg


I used a long paring chisel for a lot of the work, but also a skewed chisel as it made it easy to take slicing cuts.

With the two long mitres cut, there's was nothing for it but to take a deep breath and do a trial fit:

2026-07-04-15-trial-fit_600.jpg


As my first ever attempt at a secret mitre dovetail, I'm really happy with that. There's a bit of a gap towards the right-hand side, but it's very small and I suspect that it might close up a bit more once I've got some glue in there and clamps holding it together.

I'm also really pleased that I only need to do one of those joints for this project! Hopefully I won't make any major howlers in the next few jobs that will mean I have to start again...
 
Excellent. I usually clean out all the corners again at that point. Sometimes it rewards you with an even better fit.
 
Excellent. I usually clean out all the corners again at that point. Sometimes it rewards you with an even better fit.

Thanks. I'll give that a go.

So what is this project that only requires one secret mitre dovetail?

No spoilers; you'll have to wait and see...

(in all seriousness, it's not that exciting, just seemed a good opportunity to try out the joint)
 
David Charlesworth used a "Robert Wearing tranfer jig" (presumably from one of Wearing's excellent books). The jig consisted of two bits of plywood fixed together with a brace on the back to make sure they were fixed at right-angles to one another......

I wonder if it's something like this:


IMG_8943.jpg
 
That's looking really neat and tidy. Much better than my own one-off experiment some time ago.

Looking further back, 15-20 years, when YouTube was relatively new, I remember watching some great videos of Japanese furniture being made. One featured a cabinet, about two foot cube, with secret mitre dovetails joining all the boards together. No jigs, no trial fitting, just years of experience sitting on the floor cutting joints. I don't expect I can find it now, which is probably a good thing, as it gave the totally erroneous impression that these joints are much easier than they really are and always go together perfectly first time!
 
Excellent Al, excellent.
I have done many a secret mitred dovetail in my time and these days I can knock one out perfectly without guides in about 20 minutes from felling the tree to finished box. But for a beginner such as yourself, that's a pretty good first attempt.
Yours sincerely
Pinocchio.
 
That's looking really neat and tidy. Much better than my own one-off experiment some time ago.

Thanks Andy.

I remember saying a few years ago that I could never imagine making one of these joints (mainly because it seemed a shame to hide the joinery away). Shows what I knew!

Looking further back, 15-20 years, when YouTube was relatively new, I remember watching some great videos of Japanese furniture being made. One featured a cabinet, about two foot cube, with secret mitre dovetails joining all the boards together. No jigs, no trial fitting, just years of experience sitting on the floor cutting joints. I don't expect I can find it now, which is probably a good thing, as it gave the totally erroneous impression that these joints are much easier than they really are and always go together perfectly first time!
No jigs or trial fitting sounds like a completely different league to anything I could even aspire to, let alone achieve!
 
Here's David Charlesworth's:

View attachment 55955

View attachment 55956

Described by him as "quite simply, two bits of MDF or ply, screwed together and braced at 90°"
Here's a big claim: I think mine is better than his. Mine goes in the vice, and the raised edges mean that you aren't relying on perfect ends to the boards to get a right angle . I'm not explaining this well. Mine restrains both tail and pin board to a right angle, and with a right angle between them. Charlesworth's only deals with the angle between them. Here's a photo of mine in action, although most of it is obscured by the vice and the work:

IMG_8945.jpg

IMG_8946.jpg

Charlesworth's relies on both ends of all of the boards being shot perfectly square, because they become the reference. I don't hold to that, and use the shoulders as reference. You can see my board ends are just sawn.

I've never attempted secret mitre dovetails, so I'm not sure whether the jig would work.
 
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Here's a big claim: I think mine is better than his. Mine goes in the vice, and the raised edges mean that you aren't relying on perfect ends to the boards to get a right angle . I'm not explaining this well. Mine restrains both tail and pin board to a right angle, and with a right angle between them. Charlesworth's only deals with the angle between them. Here's a photo of mine in action, although most of it is obscured by the vice and the work:

View attachment 55957

View attachment 55958

Charlesworth's relies on both ends of all of the boards being shot perfectly square, because they become the reference. I don't hold to that, and use the shoulders as reference. You can see my board ends are just sawn.

I've never attempted secret mitre dovetails, so I'm not sure whether the jig would work.
I agree that yours is better than his for normal dovetails (I built something like yours into the Moxon vice on my portable workbench). I've no idea what DC uses for normal dovetails (I don't think I've seen his videos on the subject).

For the Secret Mitre ones, you need to be on the inside of the joint for marking, so you have the tail board and jig lying flat on the bench. The fence on yours would get in the way I think.
 
The other end of the pin board is going to get joined to another piece of wood with a tusked mortice and tenon. I'd been considering using some contrasting wood for this bit but in the end I decided to keep it nice and simple and make the whole thing out of Sycamore. To that end, I Ryoba'd a bit more off the same piece:

2026-07-04-16-a-bit-more-sycamore_600.jpg


This time I did take a photo of the rougher side:

2026-07-04-17-rougher-side_600.jpg


Getting smoother:

2026-07-04-18-getting-smoother_600.jpg


Smooth:

2026-07-04-19-smooth_600.jpg


To mark out the mortice and tenon joint, I used my favourite edge distance gauge thing and a marking knife. The gauge has a long stretch so I could do all the along-grain marks referencing off the same edge. I marked both pieces on both sides and used a combination square to knife the shoulder lines:

2026-07-04-20-marking-tenons-and-mortices_600.jpg


It was feeling rather hot in the workshop so I decided to get some Forstner assistance with the stock removal, using a 22 mm Forstner bit for the bottom of the central section of the tenon board and a 12 mm one for the mortices:

2026-07-04-21-forstner-assistance_600.jpg


The ends of the tenons will be visible and hence I'd like a reasonably good surface finish. To that end, I'll chisel them rather than trying to saw to the line. Sawing the tenons (away from the line) was done with the saw held at a steep angle, attacking first from one side and then from the other:

2026-07-04-22-sawing-at-a-steep-angle_600.jpg


However, the tenons are rather long, so I couldn't saw down the middle without the back of the saw hitting the end of the board. I could have used a (back-less) Ryoba, but its plate is a lot thicker than that of the Dozuki I'd started with. Fortunately, my other rip Dozuki has a bit near the tip that is back-less so I was able to do the last little bit by taking short strokes with that saw instead:

2026-07-04-23-different-dozuki_600.jpg


That's as far as I've got today and I needed to come in to do some non-woodwork stuff for a bit. Tomorrow I'll chisel to the lines:

2026-07-04-24-ready-for-chiselling_600.jpg


Once that bit of the joint is complete I'll mark up for the other mortices (the ones in the tenons into which a wedge will go).
 
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