A vexed question and possible solution

[9fingers]

This is not meant to be a political point in anyway is if there is any hint of the thread going that way, I or the other mods will pull it.

Once again in the news we have the vexed question of EU economic migrants coming to the UK and some claiming benefits/tax credits etc. (NOT refugees from outside EU travelling though to UK)
A solution occurs to me that I have not heard suggested anywhere at all. I can't imagine it has not been thought of before and so presume there must be a problem with it. Can anyone spot it?

If an EU citizen arrives in another EU country (say UK) and needs to claim benefits why aren't these set at the level of the nation he is from and charged back to that government. Once the person has been working in UK and paying UK taxes for some pre-set period, they then become entitled to UK benefit rules and UK rates.

In this way the person can work to (presumably) better themselves by their own efforts whilst being supported by the country where they used to live and where they paid their taxes. Those who might want to migrate to a preferential benefits scheme will be no better off and be encouraged to work.

This is the age of online government where funds can be transferred internationally, rules and benefit levels can be communicated instantly etc -can it really be that hard to make it work?

Let's keep the discussion nice and non-political chaps....

Bob

 

[Phil]

Bob, loke your idea.

BUT

I do not think it would work in Africa! :lol:

Cheers
Phil

 

[Mike G]

Throughout my entire adult life I had assumed that this was exactly what happened. I was astonished to find out that it wasn't.

 

[AndyP]

ou would get my vote Bob. Problem is it sounds too logical.

Why not write to DC, the PM?

 

[9fingers]

ou would get my vote Bob. Problem is it sounds too logical.

Why not write to DC, the PM?

Well, as a few of the people who I respect (above) seem to agree, I have duly sent an email to the PM office at No 10 - we will see what the response is!

Bob

 

[tracerman]

Bob - I also agree with you , but as someone said , its probably too logical .

I have come the conclusion recently , that David Cameron isn't going to give these matters his best shot although in most other ways I think he is the best man , currently , to represent us on the world stage .

I was born in 1947 , so the first time I was able to cast my vote was in Ted Heath's referendum on whether we should continue to proceed with the process of joining the European Common Market which had been started by Harold Wilson's government . There were transitional stages and it took a long time . But we didn't sign up to losing our sovereignty to Brussels , it was supposed to be a trading agreement . I could ( and probably will ) say a lot more , but I feel we have been conned . What does the Queen think about all this for god's sake ? .

Steve

 

[Mike G]

What does the Queen think about all this .....? . Steve

That may not be the most convincing argument for staying in the EU that I've ever heard!

 

[Merlin]

As normal Bob - you talk complete sense, you get my vote.

Merlin

 

[Gill]

I'm surprised by Cameron's list of matters which need addressing. No mention of the common agricultural policy, the common fishery policy, the need to sign off the EUs accounts, the lack of democratic accountability of the executive... I'm sure this list is not exhaustive.

I'm hugely in favour of Europe as a single entity but Cameron's priorities for reform are not the same as mine.

 

[Mike G]

I'm surprised by Cameron's list of matters which need addressing. No mention of the common agricultural policy, the common fishery policy, the need to sign off the EUs accounts, the lack of democratic accountability of the executive... I'm sure this list is not exhaustive.

I'm hugely in favour of Europe as a single entity but Cameron's priorities for reform are not the same as mine.

Indeed. It's almost as if his list is determined by what he can achieve, rather by what needs fixing.

 

[Peter Gee]

...Once again in the news we have the vexed question of EU economic migrants coming to the UK and some claiming benefits/tax credits etc. ...
If an EU citizen arrives in another EU country (say UK) and needs to claim benefits why aren't these set at the level of the nation he is from and charged back to that government. Once the person has been working in UK and paying UK taxes for some pre-set period, they then become entitled to UK benefit rules and UK rates.

The facts are that no one from any EU country can simply come to the UK and claim benefits, despite what the majority of the British press say.

The former Conservative Minister of Immigration, Mark Harper, said in January 2013 that "European nationals do not have unrestricted access to the UK. They must be exercising their treaty rights. This means they must be working, studying or self-sufficient" - this being reported in the Daily Mail (even!) at the time.

EU workers arriving in the UK can remain in the UK for three months, but if they do not get a job within that time and if they do not have sufficient financial means to support themselves, then they cannot stay, let alone claim benefits. Those are the simple facts, which can only be challenged by lies or obfuscation.

As far as the stories that the British press are notorious for carrying, there is a website which has been set up by the UK office of the EU where you can see some of the more lurid press stories, together with the refutations of those stories by the British civil servant responsible for EU liaison here:

http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/

 

[kirkpoore1]

A couple of comments on this issue (or, as Peter Gee has shown, alleged issue):

1. In the United States, when you get laid off work, you collect unemployment benefits from the state that you worked in, not where you live. For example, I work in Missouri but live in Illinois. When I was laid off the last time (back in 2000), I collected unemployment from Missouri instead of Illinois. This meant I got $100 per week less than if I had been working in Illinois. I think this is roughly equivalent to what Bob was suggesting.

2. When I hear people complaining about absurd EU regulations, there never seems to be any way to overturn them. I know there is some sort of EU level legislature. Doesn't it do anything? It seems that the biggest complaint about the EU is that there is nobody to hold responsible for their actions.

Kirk
not from there...

 

[RogerS]

Bob...don't be surprised if you get a standard BS response from the PM's office as chances are your email won't be read properly and digested. Why not write to your MP...you might get a better response.

[EDIT: Making the assumption that your MP is Tory! If it's Citizen Corby then you're stuffed!]]

 

[Peter Gee]

I know there is some sort of EU level legislature. Doesn't it do anything? It seems that the biggest complaint about the EU is that there is nobody to hold responsible for their actions.

The first point to make, Kirk, is to say that the EU is nothing at all like the US federal government. I understand why the confusion, of course, as I also read several of the British newspapers regularly - and they are, as you will see if you peruse the link I gave earlier, not telling the truth, nor presenting any facts in a truthful manner.

The EU is, first and foremost, a collective of like-minded European nations, all quite separate and with very different electoral systems, legal systems and administrative structures. Almost all of them have written constitutions, apart from the UK of course, which has resolutely refused to codify its own “constitution”, preferring to keep things a little ‘elastic’, as it were.

These nations have agreed to follow a clearly agreed set of ‘rules’, agreed by the nations themselves in meetings between the various heads of state and other elected leaders. Every single country elects a group of “Members of the European Parliament” (MEPs) to represent directly the wishes of the electorate of each country, with the number of MEPs directly proportional to the actual populations of each country. Furthermore, there is a separate “Council of Ministers”, where the elected members of each nation’s governments debate and agree (or not) issues which are put before them, or introduced by them directly.

The various ‘ministries’ of the EU are overseen by “commissioners”, who are proposed by the elected governments of each nation is direct proportion, again, to the actual populations of the member countries. As these posts are exactly the same in scope and competence as, in the case of the UK, a senior civil servant operating inside a government ministry, they are appointed on the basis of their competence in administering the individual ‘ministries’. These “commissioners” report directly to the Council of Ministers or the European Parliament, when there is something being discussed that involves them or their ‘ministries’.


The entire operation is managed by the appointed officials, such as the current President of the EU, Jean-Claude Junker - much hated and maligned by the tabloid press in the UK.

Those, Kirk, are the facts, but there are a great many people in the UK especially, that chose to see something else - driven by the press who can hardly pass a day without some reference to WW2 in order to drive up the patriotic fervour that, apparently, helps them sell more newspapers or charge more for their advertising space/time.

http://ec.europa.eu/index_en.htm

You will find that link takes you to the main EU website, where there are links to answer just about any other question you may have that hasn’t been answered by my earlier link illustrating the lies that the people in the UK are subjected to on a daily basis by the press.

Personally, I am too long in the tooth now for it to make much impact on my life any more - the only pension I receive from the UK would barely cover the car insurance. My concern is that there are so many lies being spread in the UK these days, lies which have confused and misled the people in the UK to not understand very much at all that is really happening around them. I can only assume that there are people trying to make money out of the confusion and mistrust that is growing there on a daily basis. The losers will, inevitably, be the young people who are facing a future in the UK with fewer jobs and shrinking opportunities. A great shame.

So, in answer to your original question, yes there is a way - in fact, several ways to take issue with something that the EU is really doing that affects you.

1. Contact your elected representative - your MEP. He/she is the one that represents your interests in the European Parliament.

2. Contact your national MP. He/she is able to lobby the government in the national parliament/assembly where any issues can be taken up at the Council of Ministers.

3. You can contact the Commissioner concerned with the 'ministry' concerned directly with the area you have an issue with.

4. You can contact the EU office in the UK itself where you will find help and guidance on issues you are unclear about.

5. You can look on any one of the many EU websites that explain each and every single debate and issue as it is actually happening.

All in all, Kirk, it is actually easier to question something that is happening in the EU, at EU level, than it is to question the Federal government in the USA, no?

(I trust I avoided bringing politics into this comment - hard though it is to do so!).

 

[Peter Gee]

Strange to see a second post here quoting my earlier one. I thought it best to delete the repeated text and simply give a link to the EU website which shows exactly what every MEP actually does in parliament - how they vote, how often they attend and any contributions they make to parliament. It is interesting reading, especially when looking at the activities of the British MEPs.

http://www.votewatch.eu

It is just a shame that the Express/Mail/Telegraph/Sun/Times never refer to it, nor tell their readers of it.

 

[RogerS]

And Kirk, the important thing to realise about the EU is that, for decades, the European Parliament has been on the road once a month at an annual cost of roughly $122 million (yes, one hundred and twenty two million dollars) according to an assessment of the European Court of Auditors in 2014.

Between 3,000 and 4,000 people, among them roughly 800 MEPs, their assistants, employees and interpreters move 400 kilometres from Brussels to Strasbourg. Their workspaces are empty for 317 days per year.

For years, critics have complained that the so-called "travelling circus" is time-consuming and expensive. Six political groups in the European Parliament support the Single Seat Campaign by now, calling for a centralisation of the European Parliament.

This way of working is "not always easy to manage in practice", reads the EU's information page. No s**t Sherlock.

 

[Wizard9999]

This is not meant to be a political point in anyway is if there is any hint of the thread going that way, I or the other mods will pull it.

Seems to be a bit of political comment in here to me.

 

[Wizard9999]

OK, seems not yet deemed political.

I think this is a spectacularly good idea, get it put in place ASAP. Then I shall be moving to Dubrovnik, nice climate and cost of living 65% lower than London, so my UK unemployment and other benefits that will follow me under this scheme will mean a pretty decent standard of living . Remember, any idea is a two way street.

Terry.

 

[RogerS]

OK, seems not yet deemed political.

I think this is a spectacularly good idea, get it put in place ASAP. Then I shall be moving to Dubrovnik, nice climate and cost of living 65% lower than London, so my UK unemployment and other benefits that will follow me under this scheme will mean a pretty decent standard of living . Remember, any idea is a two way street.

Terry.

I like your thinking !!

I smiled at the news this morning about Crickhowell going 'offshore' just like the big boys. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 28971.html

 

[Peter Gee]

I think this is a spectacularly good idea, get it put in place ASAP. Then I shall be moving to Dubrovnik, nice climate and cost of living 65% lower than London, so my UK unemployment and other benefits that will follow me under this scheme will mean a pretty decent standard of living . Remember, any idea is a two way street..

Which is the reason why there are around 3 million Brits living in other EU countries than the UK at the moment.

Of course, you must realise that once you no longer have an "address" in the UK, you will no longer be eligible for UK benefits. only a pension if you are over pension age.

So, yes, it is a two-way street and has been for many years already.

So; off you go to Croatia, your new life is waiting for you, and the food is really good there (as is the drinking).

 

[9fingers]

I'm quite happy about it applying both ways. That is only fair. There is a time period - currently being argued as maybe 4 years before local benefits can be claimed by economic migrants so provide the individual has "sufficient employment credits*" the nation having those credits pays the benefits.

* however that is defined

Bob

 

[Peter Gee]

I'm quite happy about it applying both ways. That is only fair. There is a time period - currently being argued as maybe 4 years before local benefits can be claimed by economic migrants so provide the individual has "sufficient employment credits*" the nation having those credits pays the benefits.

* however that is defined

Bob

Bob,

Benefits can only be claimed by an EU citizen after residency has been established and an employment record achieved - take a look at the links I gave. The greatest shame of all is that certain sections of the British media have been misrepresenting the reality of the situation. I know several Italians living and working in the UK - all of them in professional jobs where it has been impossible for their employers to find suitably qualified and experienced people in the UK willing to do the work. The unpleasantness they all have to face on a daily basis is quite appalling at the moment, and is a disgrace for the people of the UK to be tarred and feathered by that rather unpleasant brush, I feel.

Now I realise that there has been a political undertow to this thread, but I felt it important to put the record straight for those with the desire for truth - as I'm sure you have also. And, whilst you mull over the idea of EU citizens working in the UK, just remember who is running the bank of England at the moment - to say nothing of all the other individuals and their wives that are also from different EU member countries. It's a lot.

Now I will pass on this thread, unless anyone has a specific question I might be able to help with.

 

[Wizard9999]

Of course, you must realise that once you no longer have an "address" in the UK, you will no longer be eligible for UK benefits. only a pension if you are over pension age.

But presumably it would not be necessary under Bob's proposal.

 

[Wizard9999]

Now I realise that there has been a political undertow to this thread...

:text-+1:

In order for there to need to be a "solution" there must be a perception that there is a "problem", that in itself is a political point of view.

 

[Peter Gee]

But presumably it would not be necessary under Bob's proposal.

For Bob's proposal to have any traction, the situation he imagines to exist would have to actually exist - it doesn't though, as I illustrated earlier.

The real problem is that the UK media is, and has for a long time now, being lying to you about the reality of the EU - as you might be able to see illustrated clearly in the link to the UK website of the EU I gave earlier.

Now, I have no desire to debate whether the gutter press in the UK are correct or not, as I gave substantial proof that they are actually lying to you already. When the time comes for the referendum, I would hope that truth will be given a chance to be heard and read about then - but I suspect it will not be, given that it has become such a political issue which has been used for many years to both create and further the political careers of people who are happy to lie to those that they want to vote them into political 'heaven'. The medium term outcome of a "Brexit" will be felt soon enough - more so by those that still have a working life ahead of them than by those drawing a pension. The longer term outcome will become clear once the patriotic fervour that is gripping some sections of the British public has been superseded by events.

Now, basta. The correct place to moan about how terrible the EU is is the Daily Express.

 

[RogerS]

Out of curiosity, Peter, you are clearly in favour of the Eu - fair enough - but is there anything about it that you think is wrong? Just out of curiosity more than anything else.

 

[9fingers]

Now I realise that there has been a political undertow to this thread...

:text-+1:

In order for there to need to be a "solution" there must be a perception that there is a "problem", that in itself is a political point of view.

Hmm! I don't think I would quite agree with that.
My initial thoughts were triggered by comments in the media quoting the PM concerning a proposal/suggestion that Tax credits (a benefit) would not be claimable for 4 years IIRC. Tax credits being only paid to applicable working people brings it within the areas discussed by PeterGee I think.

I wrote of my thoughts to a solution more from a point of view that to me it seemed so simple a fix that I could not have been the first to think of it and so it must have a flaw. Responses here have yet to point out a flaw so for me that has satisfied my curiosity to a degree.

Now various political references have been made - mainly small p politics ie what is politic (sensible or practical) to do.

I'm tempted to lock the thread as it has achieved its goal but equally aware that it would be bad form to make a response and immediately lock it preventing any reply so I will keep it open specifically for comments to my reply then lock it in a while.


I trust this is acceptable to all

Bob - who really is a non Political animal - honest

 

[RogerS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdoGVgj1MtY :lol:

Interesting to see that on PPrune.org that the thread on the Russian plane crash has now been locked as the same old arguments are going round and round. Still, after well over 100 pages, it certainly had some legs.

 

[Wizard9999]

Now I realise that there has been a political undertow to this thread...

:text-+1:

In order for there to need to be a "solution" there must be a perception that there is a "problem", that in itself is a political point of view.

Hmm! I don't think I would quite agree with that.
My initial thoughts were triggered by comments in the media quoting the PM concerning a proposal/suggestion that Tax credits (a benefit) would not be claimable for 4 years IIRC. Tax credits being only paid to applicable working people brings it within the areas discussed by PeterGee I think.

I wrote of my thoughts to a solution more from a point of view that to me it seemed so simple a fix that I could not have been the first to think of it and so it must have a flaw. Responses here have yet to point out a flaw so for me that has satisfied my curiosity to a degree.

Now various political references have been made - mainly small p politics ie what is politic (sensible or practical) to do.

I'm tempted to lock the thread as it has achieved its goal but equally aware that it would be bad form to make a response and immediately lock it preventing any reply so I will keep it open specifically for comments to my reply then lock it in a while.


I trust this is acceptable to all

Bob - who really is a non Political animal - honest

Well, I think any discussion initiated in response to a media quote from the PM is surely by definition political in nature. He has sent a letter to the EU listing what he feels needs to be negotiated on ahead of a referendum over the UK's membership of the EU. Surely this is uber politics.

But I think the reason your suggestion has not been adopted is that it would IMHO infringe on the concept of equality, which I think is enshrined in one of the various treaties, i.e. people living in the UK from whatever EU country must be treated equally. So if one gets say £50 in benefits and another gets £25, because one is paid by the UK govt. and the other by a different govt. under the definition of equality used within the EU it would be in breach. It is exactly the reason why if the UK wants to impose the 4 year qualifying period this must apply to all EU citizens, including those from the UK, otherwise the European courts would certainly deem it illegal.

Not saying I agree or disagree with your idea, just saying that is why it could not work absent the very negotiation that the PM is looking to have.

Terry
Who is a deeply political animal.

 

[9fingers]

OK Terry nice to have a counter view put forward.

With yours equality favours the individual and with my the equality is more in favour of the government of each country and hence equality of the people overall of that country = oh dear circular argument. :lol:

Bob

 

[Wizard9999]

OK Terry nice to have a counter view put forward.

With yours equality favours the individual and with my the equality is more in favour of the government of each country and hence equality of the people overall of that country = oh dear circular argument. :lol:

Bob

Bob

It is not really my view, it is my understand of what European law says and that is why your proposal could not change without the law being changed first. You initially said:

"I can't imagine it has not been thought of before and so presume there must be a problem with it. Can anyone spot it?"

All I am saying is yes I think I can spot the problem, I believe your suggestion is in breach of European law. Of course, there may be somebody on here who can explain why my nicer standing of what EU law says is flawed.

If you want my view, I very much subscribe to the idea put forward by John Rawls of the veil of ignorance, i.e. a truly fair system can only be designed by people who have no concept of what position they will have in that system. In this context it translates very well, would everyone hold the same views if they did not know whether they were currently UK citizens or from another EU country and wanted to come to the UK.

Terry.

 

[9fingers]

I think we have aired this adequately now and thankfully no one has come to blows.

A pat on the back to everyone - I don't think we would have had such a sensible discussion on some other WW forums I can think of! :lol:

Over and out

Bob