Alternative gouges to Pfeil

[RogerS]

Since available stock of long bent Pfeil gouges of the three sizes I require anywhere in the world seems to be zero with no indication of future availability (maybe the Gnomes have caught Covid), I am now looking for alternative manufacturers.

Sweep equivalence is vital and so any suggestions gratefully received.

The ones I need are 8/10 8/30 5/25 all long bent so probably need the L suffix attached.

TIA

 

[AndyT]

Here's a suggestion that you won't find online.
In Bristol, we have a rare survivor of a shop. It's called Bristol Design and sells all sorts of used woodworking tools. They used to issue mail order catalogues but apart from a minor presence on eBay have not really shifted into selling online.

Back in the 80s/90s they branched out into a few ranges of new tools - infill plane castings, chisels, and a comprehensive range of carving tools, which I think were made in Austria or Germany. Given the hundreds of variants of sweeps and sizes, this venture wasn't going to be a quick seller and although they aren't keeping it going, they have a lot left. They might have some back bent gouges.

I don't know which sizing system they followed, but the proprietor will. I suggest that you give him a ring and have a chat. His name is Charles Stirling and there's some basic information here.
https://bristol-design.co.uk/

If you need me to act as a go-between, I could.

 

[TrimTheKing]

:text-goodpost: :text-bravo:

 

[Woodbloke]

Here's a suggestion that you won't find online.
In Bristol, we have a rare survivor of a shop. It's called Bristol Design and sells all sorts of used woodworking tools. They used to issue mail order catalogues but apart from a minor presence on eBay have not really shifted into selling online.

I've heard of this place but never been so it might be worth throwing the velocipede on the train and having a run over. There used to be a similar, but much smaller enterprise in Salisbury called Pennyfarthing Tools but they shut up shop some years ago due to lack of 'footfall'. They did though, have some nice stuff in there from time to time, including a late Norris panel plane which is still under my bench - Rob

 

[sunnybob]

I've just looked at the website. :shock:
As a planophobic I darent wander round in there. But I think it a wonderful place for the addicted.

 

[RogerS]

Many thanks, Andy. I've been in touch with him. The chase's afoot.

 

[RogerS]

Andy, can I just check my understanding of the types of gouges. As you know, I'm after carving the wreaths. So convex curve.



It is a long bent gouge that I need for those circular mouldings on the vertical faces ?

 

[Trevanion]

It is a long bent gouge that I need for those circular mouldings on the vertical faces ?

You could do most if not all of that with a regular sharp bench chisel, I don't really see gouges being able to help you too much with that except for perhaps the top of the handrail.

 

[RogerS]

It is a long bent gouge that I need for those circular mouldings on the vertical faces ?

You could do most if not all of that with a regular sharp bench chisel, I don't really see gouges being able to help you too much with that except for perhaps the top of the handrail.

I'm not so sure. If the gouge is the same profile as the curve then surely that has to be easier/better ?

 

[AndyT]

Andy, can I just check my understanding of the types of gouges. As you know, I'm after carving the wreaths. So convex curve.



It is a long bent gouge that I need for those circular mouldings on the vertical faces ?

I'm afraid I really don't know. I have very limited experience of carving and none of making that sort of piece. Sorry!

 

[Mike G]

I can see a hollow down from the crown on the top face as it approaches the edge moulding. I reckon that's where a gouge would be useful. The "bulge" on the sides doesn't really need a gouge, but it might be a bonus to have one. Only an out-cannel would work for that convex shape, and I'm not sure I've ever seen one with a bent blade ( not that a bent blade would help as far as I can see).

If you can measure the curve, Roger, I'll see if either of my big out-cannel gouges matches. If it does, you're welcome to borrow it for the duration. Same for the hollow on the top. If you can get an accurate measure of the curve to me I'll see if I've got something to match.

 

[Trevanion]

I'm not so sure. If the gouge is the same profile as the curve then surely that has to be easier/better ?

Yes, it may be a little easier (I'd personally work the wreath's mouldings to various square sections first and then shape those to the final moulding) but you won't have to possibly wait weeks to do the job nor will you have to spend a serious amount of money on tools you'll not need again.

 

[RogerS]

I can see a hollow down from the crown on the top face as it approaches the edge moulding. I reckon that's where a gouge would be useful. The "bulge" on the sides doesn't really need a gouge, but it might be a bonus to have one. Only an out-cannel would work for that convex shape, and I'm not sure I've ever seen one with a bent blade ( not that a bent blade would help as far as I can see).

If you can measure the curve, Roger, I'll see if either of my big out-cannel gouges matches. If it does, you're welcome to borrow it for the duration. Same for the hollow on the top. If you can get an accurate measure of the curve to me I'll see if I've got something to match.

Thanks, Mike.

Does this help?

 

[RogerS]

I'm not so sure. If the gouge is the same profile as the curve then surely that has to be easier/better ?

Yes, it may be a little easier (I'd personally work the wreath's mouldings to various square sections first and then shape those to the final moulding) but you won't have to possibly wait weeks to do the job nor will you have to spend a serious amount of money on tools you'll not need again.

My philosophy, Dan, is to buy the tools that I need but then sell-on if I don't think I'll need them again.

 

[Trevanion]

My philosophy, Dan, is to buy the tools that I need but then sell-on if I don't think I'll need them again.

Fair enough, though I do think you may be giving the gouges more credit than they'll actually be worth on the job. If there were concave mouldings to your handrail section it would make sense to get some gouges but I honestly think you'll have a much easier time carving it out with a bench chisel and scraping with scratch stocks as mostly everything is either flat or convex.

Also, you may want to edit that image above to remove certain personal details!

 

[Lons]

Hi Roger
I managed to look this afternoon and I only have a couple of bent back both far to small though I have a spoon chisel and a scorp but tbh I think you're over complicating it although I can see why.
Whatever chisels you use you cant easily cut the profiles tor a finished shape and it's just as easy to use standard gouges / rotary tool and then finess it with rifflers, abrasive and scrapers ground from handsaw plate.

I haven't carved anything like that but have done plenty of complicated carvings with similar issues of reach and access and you just have to fiddle away at it sometimes that means shaping bits of wood and sticking abrasive to it.

I sold on most of my old chisels to a collector a few years ago but have mine laid out on the bench so will take some pics and email them to you in the morning.

If you do buy gouges it doesn't really matter what brand you get as for that job even the cheapos will hold an edge long enough then quickly honed after all it's a one off and walnut isn't usually too difficult to carve.

 

[RogerS]

My philosophy, Dan, is to buy the tools that I need but then sell-on if I don't think I'll need them again.

Fair enough, though I do think you may be giving the gouges more credit than they'll actually be worth on the job. If there were concave mouldings to your handrail section it would make sense to get some gouges but I honestly think you'll have a much easier time carving it out with a bench chisel and scraping with scratch stocks as mostly everything is either flat or convex.

Also, you may want to edit that image above to remove certain personal details!

Thanks Dan. I'm usually so careful.

 

[RogerS]

Mmmm... :eusa-think: You're all singing off the same hymn sheet and since you guys know much more than me about this carving malarkey, I need to rethink.

 

[RogerS]

....
I sold on most of my old chisels to a collector a few years ago but have mine laid out on the bench so will take some pics and email them to you in the morning.
...

Thanks Lons. You're either up late or up earlier even than me !

 

[MJ80]

I have found a pklace over here where 8/30 5/25, both L are available. The smaller one isn't in stock.
https://drechslershop.de/hohlmeissel-la ... =015-5l_25
Not sure which zone the UK is now for shipping. If its any use drop me a line and we can get it arranged.

 

[RogerS]

....
Not sure which zone the UK is now for shipping. ....

Many thanks for seeking this out. Unfortunately, the UK is in the Forbidden Zone. We don't exist in their list of countries that they ship to. Every other country is listed, it seems. Wonder why that is :eusa-think:

I looked for Vereinigtes Königreich. Maybe we're known under a different name ? Die Aussätzigen, maybe.

 

[TomTrees]

I know nothing about carving, so likely no help.
Presume you have looked at Henry Taylor and Kirschen tools?

 

[Woodster]

I know nothing about carving, so likely no help.
Presume you have looked at Henry Taylor and Kirschen tools?

I’ve got at least one of each of those along with some other Swiss and Austrian tools and I can’t see any difference in performance from any of them.

It’s a shame we’re still in lockdown because there seems to be a huge market in second hand carving tools judging by the large numbers I’ve seen at craft shows etc in previous years. Sadly they don’t go cheap though!

 

[MJ80]

I can give them a call of you want. Shipping from here privately won't really work as you will end up paying german vat, shipping twice and whatever duties they decide to use when it hits the UK.
Have you looked at stubai? as an alternative

 

[RogerS]

I know nothing about carving, so likely no help.
Presume you have looked at Henry Taylor and Kirschen tools?

Very hard to find any accurate 1:1 drawings of their sweeps.

 

[RogerS]

I can give them a call of you want. Shipping from here privately won't really work as you will end up paying german vat, shipping twice and whatever duties they decide to use when it hits the UK.
Have you looked at stubai? as an alternative

That would be great if you could, thanks. I'd not heard of Stubai but again my problem will be getting hold of accurate charts to measure the correct sweep that I need.

 

[Woodster]

I can give them a call of you want. Shipping from here privately won't really work as you will end up paying german vat, shipping twice and whatever duties they decide to use when it hits the UK.
Have you looked at stubai? as an alternative

That would be great if you could, thanks. I'd not heard of Stubai but again my problem will be getting hold of accurate charts to measure the correct sweep that I need.

The Stubai sweeps are here:

https://www.stubai.com/en/woodcarving-tools/

You can download each sweep image and then print it out 100% if you want.

 

[TomTrees]

I have "ye olde Axminster catalogue" at a glance at the Henry Taylor ones what appears to be an accurate(ish) looking rendition regarding scale (as said, haven't much of a clue but carving)
and I don't have any of those chisels.

The printed lines aren't very fine though, looks like they were drawn with a bog standard 0.5 mm retractable pencil.
I must take some snaps of the catalogue, since it doesn't appear to be available any more.

Not sure what the best thing to show scale is, if a few rulers won't work.
Edit, here you go
Can take some more snaps if needed as the photos probably aren't great.

Tom

 

[TomTrees]

I forgot to mention, what else was featured in the magazine,
Victor makes a set of 3 in-cannel's, and also a set of 3 out-cannel's, but seem not to be in stock on the Axi website, some of the RIder ones are being sold now.
Not half as nice looking...
I hope their still being made.
There's no picture of the sweep, just a mention of the sizes, 1/4",1/2" and 3/4".

Tom

 

[Woodbloke]

Victor makes a set of 3 in-cannel's, and also a set of 3 out-cannel's, but seem not to be in stock on the Axi website, some of the RIder ones are being sold now.

Tom

Victor and Rider are both Ax 'own brands'. I have a set of in-cannel Victors and out-cannel Rider; both are pretty good but the Rider's need some serious re-grinding before they work well. The steel however, is excellent as you'd expect when they're made by Narex - Rob

 

[Mike G]

.....Does this help?

Sorry, Roger, but somehow I missed this one.

I've just checked, and the closest I've got to the big radii is a 15mm radius. Also 14 and 12.5. Yours to borrow if you want.

 

[RogerS]

Many thanks to everyone. What I'm planning to do is spindle mould up some softwood and then cut some slices off, send them to all and sundry and ask them to see if they have gouges that fit the profile. I'll include you as well, Mike, if that's OK.

 

[Mike G]

Sure, no problem Roger. I reckon, though, you'll end up with a scratch stock or 3, and some shaped sanding blocks.

 

[Woodbloke]

I had an email from Joy at CHT today to say that they've received another small batch of gouges from Pfeil (one or two 'fishtails, spoon' and 'long bent' sizes) but it would appear that the stocks are woefully inadequate generally - Rob

 

[timothyedoran]

Here's a suggestion that you won't find online.
In Bristol, we have a rare survivor of a shop. It's called Bristol Design and sells all sorts of used woodworking tools. They used to issue mail order catalogues but apart from a minor presence on eBay have not really shifted into selling online.

I've heard of this place but never been so it might be worth throwing the velocipede on the train and having a run over. There used to be a similar, but much smaller enterprise in Salisbury called Pennyfarthing Tools but they shut up shop some years ago due to lack of 'footfall'. They did though, have some nice stuff in there from time to time, including a late Norris panel plane which is still under my bench - Rob

In the olden days before Covid it's about 15 minutes walk from my work. It is a beautiful shop. It was cash only though, but that might have changed. It's a bit of a rummage through what they have to sort cheap or worn old tools from good ones but all reasonably priced.

It you want a day out, then you can take a water taxi boat from the train station. Walk up the hill to the shop then back down via park Street for food or the best ice cream at Swoon.

 

[AndyT]

I may be a bit late saying this, but just in case it's useful... Roger, you're trying to find gouges which exactly match the curves on your cross section drawing. I think you might be applying experience of spindle moulder tooling where it doesn't work.

The sections only match if the gouge is moving parallel with the handrail. And if it's held at the same pitch. And only for the final cut.

In practice, carving the shapes you want will mean, especially on the curvy bits, taking off lots of little bites away from the final surfaces, sneaking up on the desired shape, hidden inside. Gouges which are a bit shallower than the shape you want can do this. Even flat chisels can do this, as I think someone already said.

You'll need a template, from stiff plastic or thin metal, to keep checking how close you are to the final shape, but the cuts can be from shallowish, narrowish tools.

Final shaping can be scraped, with a custom scraper which you can make, and some sanding, using shaped blocks.

 

[Woodbloke]

:text-+1: :text-goodpost: - Rob

 

[RogerS]

Sorry, Andy, for the late reply. I blame lack of notifications !

I am fast coming round to your way of thinking. As a backstop, however, I made up a sample of the handrail on the spindle moulder and sent 'slices' to three well-known tool suppliers asking them what gouges they'd recommend. We shall see.

Lons has kindly offered me use of his Foredom and I see that the WeCheer chiselling handset should fit same. So that's another weapon in the armoury.

One thing is clear in my mind and that is I'll be doing a lot of practice on off-cuts first.

 

[SamQ aka Ah! Q!]

In Bristol, we have a rare survivor of a shop. It's called Bristol Design and sells all sorts of used woodworking tools..... the proprietor...is Charles Stirling and there's some basic information here.
https://bristol-design.co.uk/... I suggest that you give him a ring and have a chat.

No3 child lives in Brizzle; I have spent some pleasant times in the shop. Not a lot of people realise the stock in the shop is a TINY percentage of what covers three floors - including deep-sea diving gear! I once asked if he had a 10½ plane, as I had a very specific use in mind. He took me aside, into the entryway adjacent to the shop proper and pulled three straight off the shelf!! Doctor Stirling (PhD) is a truly knowledgeable bloke and very personable.
Recommend staycationers (it's coming soon?) plug in a visit if passing through Bristol. Find the hospital behind the bus station, then go left up the hill, Bristol Design is on the first crest, uphill side of the road.

Make sure your dependents and Mission Control do NOT know where you have gone and turn off your 'phone. You will need the time to appreciate the place.

Sam

 

[AndyT]

Sam's right.

One extra bit of information for any intending shoppers - they only take cash. I don't think this is so that purchases aren't obvious on joint accounts, but it can be a happy side effect.