Ash veneered ply?

[Craig Salisbury]

A possible WIP inbound if this gets the go-ahead.

I have been asked to make a gaming table for board games with removable leaves so it can be used as a dining table.

Id rather not use Solid ash in case of warping, the leaves sit in a rebate running around the inside of the table. I was thinking ply would be a lot more stable and keep the costs down a little

The legs, aprons etc. will all be made from Ash and although the base will be birch ply as its hidden im unsure as to what the removable leaves can be made from as it needs to match the Ash frame. I cant seem to find an Ash veneered Ply and I dont really want to use Ash veneered MDF.

Any thoughts?

This is the kind of thing




Cheers
Craig

 

[RogerS]

What's wrong with ash-veneered MDF ?

 

[Cabinetman]

I think you will find you won’t save any money by going down the veneered man-made sheet goods route, it’s not cheap and by the time you have lipped it you may as well have used solid wood, American Ash is cheap enough and nice to work (despite what Rob will say lol,) I have never had a problem with it warping, but as with all wood it’s best to let it acclimatise before you start work on it.
Not quite sure how your design works, do you lift the panel out and play games on the recessed portion? Or do you flip the panel for games, if the latter I think it would be reasonable and practicable to have the panel in four pieces/planks, reducing the size that way reduces potential problems, another way would be to have ply or MDF veneered panels set flush into 2 or 3 solid wood frames (despite what I said at the beginning) Ian

 

[9fingers]

Ply veneered with wood such as ash seem to be very rare these days but ash veneered mdf is common enough.
Normally I would not go near the sheds for ply but for several jobs now I've used B&Q or wickes hardwood ply which seems to have a good core and what appears to be beech veneer both sides. The last lot I got was just prior to covid so I don't know what the supply/price position is now but it was nice stuff to use.
Most of the big stores have sheet saws and so you can get it rough cut usually free so it can fit in a car.

More detail here http://thewoodhaven2.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3631

Bob

 

[Cabinetman]

Just remembered, if you are flipping the lids, veneered boards have one side which is better than the other, figured -and pretty plain sometimes. Ian

 

[Craig Salisbury]

Cheers chaps,

The idea is you remove the panels to then play on the surface below, then you can put the panels back on and use the table for dining.

I started to warm to Ash veneered MDF, and edged with solid frame as you mentioned, then i can do the top in several smaller panels for ease of use. Its not cheap but i imagine more stable than solid Ash panels without the seasonal movement. I use Avon Plywood which is now sydenhams and have had good products from them so far. there is no saving money, its still £115 a sheet, pretty much the same as birch ply

 

[Craig Salisbury]

a slight thought. it might actually be better to do solid ash panels as the span will be about 850mm with no middle support and im wondering if mdf would be a bit springy and sag over time.

 

[MattS]

The example doesn’t seem to have any visible finger hole to lift the top out of the frame? Solid or veneered MDF it’ll be a fair weight so not something you want to pry with finger nails!

 

[Craig Salisbury]

The example doesn’t seem to have any visible finger hole to lift the top out of the frame? Solid or veneered MDF it’ll be a fair weight so not something you want to pry with finger nails!

theres a pushup contraption underneath, i would use a finger pull one end. im just struggling at the moment with what material to use on the top that wont sag, will match the Ash frame. Solid ash in 400mm panels works out about £250 just for that part.

 

[Cabinetman]

Hi Craig, I know I’m a little bit out of touch on Ash prices but that seems horrendously expensive compared to the last time I bought some, I recollect I paid about £30 a cubic foot for American Ash last time. The veneered MDF won’t sag over that sort of distance at all by the way.
Not sure how thick you were thinking of having the panels, you could do it with 19 mil veneered MDF with say an inch wide frame all round mitred at the corners, and biscuits to aid levelling. Ian

 

[AndyT]

When I bought the ash for the bed I am building, Wentwood Timber were charging £25 ex VAT (£30 inc VAT) per cubic foot, for air dried boards. They are still selling at that price, unaffected by international trade

http://www.wentwoodtimbercentre.co.uk/

I also bought some ash from Yandles. I can't remember their price at the moment but it wasn't much higher and there was less waste as it was square edged boards.

 

[Craig Salisbury]

When I bought the ash for the bed I am building, Wentwood Timber were charging £25 ex VAT (£30 inc VAT) per cubic foot, for air dried boards. They are still selling at that price, unaffected by international trade

http://www.wentwoodtimbercentre.co.uk/

I also bought some ash from Yandles. I can't remember their price at the moment but it wasn't much higher and there was less waste as it was square edged boards.

So i was looking at tylers hardwoods which is £37+VAT per cubic foot of white ash. i wonder what the moisture difference is going to be as i need to get this table finished by the end of March including time for acclimatisation.

@cabinetman, i think i might look again at the mdf, it would save other headaches. I seem to be going round in circles. i was also basing my cubic foot for the leaves on being 2" thick because im an idiot.

i must admit it would be a nice drive to wales.

 

[AndyT]

When I asked, the guy at Wentwood said their stock is air dried to around 12%. I've left my boards acclimatising for quite a bit and not noticed much difference on the 32mm boards. The 75mm board shrank noticeably so may have been higher.

A couple of points about Wentwood:

It's a commendable enterprise and you can take as long as you need to decide what to buy.

They did have some 12mm and 25mm as well as the 32mm I bought.

The big disadvantage is that their retail stock is very small, so you could arrive after someone else has cleared out the bits you would have bought.

It's all slab sawn boards with bark on so there's quite a lot of wastage.

It's not very far and there's no bridge toll now

Have you looked at Vastern? They're not far from you in the other direction.

And presumably you have tried your local yard with the memorable name, Oscar Windebank?

 

[Craig Salisbury]

When I asked, the guy at Wentwood said their stock is air dried to around 12%. I've left my boards acclimatising for quite a bit and not noticed much difference on the 32mm boards. The 75mm board shrank noticeably so may have been higher.

A couple of points about Wentwood:

It's a commendable enterprise and you can take as long as you need to decide what to buy.

They did have some 12mm and 25mm as well as the 32mm I bought.

The big disadvantage is that their retail stock is very small, so you could arrive after someone else has cleared out the bits you would have bought.

It's all slab sawn boards with bark on so there's quite a lot of wastage.

It's not very far and there's no bridge toll now

Have you looked at Vastern? They're not far from you in the other direction.

And presumably you have tried your local yard with the memorable name, Oscar Windebank?

Oscar has never been good for me, mainly construction stuff and even that seems to be in short supply there. I might give vastern a call and see what they have.

The rails need to be a finished thickness of 40mm to contain the groove to the birch ply base to seat in as well as an opposing t-slot for accessories, so that could be a deciding factor for kiln dried i guess.

 

[Woodbloke]

I also bought some ash from Yandles. I can't remember their price at the moment but it wasn't much higher and there was less waste as it was square edged boards.

The stuff from Yandles is good, pretty economical (even better when you get 15% off on sale days; the next one is in Feb!) and as Andy mentioned, it's all square edged stuff and all usable being white and clear with very few defects.

It's kilned dried and planes well BUT it's truly appalling for any hand cut, precision joinery as the early wood annual rings seem to be made from cast iron, so if the project calls for machine cut construction it would be ideal.

Stay well away if you intend to do anything fancy. Air dried (olive) ash is a whole different kettle of worms - Rob

 

[Cabinetman]

I was going to recommend my local yard square edged kiln dried but then I checked how far away you are – a long long way four and a quarter hours each way lol

 

[Craig Salisbury]

I also bought some ash from Yandles. I can't remember their price at the moment but it wasn't much higher and there was less waste as it was square edged boards.

The stuff from Yandles is good, pretty economical (even better when you get 15% off on sale days; the next one is in Feb!) and as Andy mentioned, it's all square edged stuff and all usable being white and clear with very few defects.

It's kilned dried and planes well BUT it's truly appalling for any hand cut, precision joinery as the early wood annual rings seem to be made from cast iron, so if the project calls for machine cut construction it would be ideal.

Stay well away if you intend to do anything fancy. Air dried (olive) ash is a whole different kettle of worms - Rob

I have bought Oak from Yandles a few times but i never see much over 20mm thick boards. the rails for this are going to be 40mm thick and 80mm thick legs (tapered, but i could probably make them a bit thinner)

Its all machined except maybe a block plane for relieving edges so no worries there. colour and grain consistency are going to be pretty key.

This is my first actual project that someones going to pay for that i haven't scribble out from my head, so im eager to actually do a decent job and deliver a quality product.

 

[AndyT]

The Yandles k/d ash is all ex 1 inch boards so would finish at 20 - 22mm. If you wanted thicker rails you'd need to glue them up.

 

[Woodbloke]

I have bought Oak from Yandles a few times but i never see much over 20mm thick boards. the rails for this are going to be 40mm thick and 80mm thick legs (tapered, but i could probably make them a bit thinner)

You may have been looking in the wrong place; I constantly buy boards 50-60mm thick and sometimes 250mm wide, depending on whether or not it's quarter sawn. It takes a long time to pick through what's on offer, but I can usually come away with a few decent boards of quarter sawn Euro Oak. The long, thick boards are leaning up against the wall right beside the main open air entrance; the Ash is right at the back near the Wadkin cross cut saw - Rob

 

[Craig Salisbury]

I have bought Oak from Yandles a few times but i never see much over 20mm thick boards. the rails for this are going to be 40mm thick and 80mm thick legs (tapered, but i could probably make them a bit thinner)

You may have been looking in the wrong place; I constantly buy boards 50-60mm thick and sometimes 250mm wide, depending on whether or not it's quarter sawn. It takes a long time to pick through what's on offer, but I can usually come away with a few decent boards of quarter sawn Euro Oak. The long, thick boards are leaning up against the wall right beside the main open air entrance; the Ash is right at the back near the Wadkin cross cut saw - Rob

I might pop over there this week and see what they have, ideally i don want to glue up 4 boards for the legs.

wentwood got back to me and he was saying they got some 50mm but its around 19%, id imagine it would take more time than i have to come to something more reasonable before using it.