Beginner Planing Question

[Dr.Al]

I've been hand planing (and scraping) some stubbornly grained wood recently and its got me thinking about one thing that I've never quite understood about how to work mostly with hand tools.

I've got two planes with fences: a number 78:



and (most of) a Stanley 50:



(both photos taken just after receiving them; they've had a bit of TLC since then). The #78 is one of my favourite planes and gets used for all sorts of things: despite having two #311 shoulder planes (having snapped one in half and then brazed it back together after replacing it), I usually reach for the #78 for shouldery things by preference and I occasionally also use it as a sort-of-scrub plane.

This question, however, relates to using both planes in the more conventional way - as planes with a fence that you bear against one side of the work to either plough a shallow (imperial :evil: ) groove or to cut a rebate. The thing I haven't managed to get my head round is why both of these planes are designed such that the fence can only be mounted on one side.

How are you supposed to cope with grain direction with these tools? Obviously you can try to plan the workpieces such that the grain is in the right direction for when you come to plough your groove, but that's not always going to be possible (think boxes made in one piece with both the base and the top let into a groove). You could also follow it with a router plane to tidy up the tear-out it makes, but that seems to defy the point of having these dedicated tools somewhat. I guess the bottom of a groove is often hidden, but rebates can be quite visible. Is there something I'm missing?

When I made my grooving planes, I made them in pairs to get round the problem, but that doesn't help with the more adjustable and hence more versatile #50 and #78.

 

[Trevanion]

I'm sure someone with a lot more hand tool experience will chime in better than I, but from what I was taught you started at the front of the workpiece and worked your way back so that you were always cutting on a downward slope with each pass rather than a full-length pass each time.

 

[Dr.Al]

I'm sure someone with a lot more hand tool experience will chime in better than I, but from what I was taught you started at the front of the workpiece and worked your way back so that you were always cutting on a downward slope with each pass rather than a full-length pass each time.

I've definitely heard that before and I try to do it, but I'm not sure how it helps if the grain is going the wrong way - won't you still get tear out in the final passes? I thought that was more about getting the plane to track more easily rather than making sure it doesn't tear out. Of course I might be wrong - I'm still learning all this stuff! :?: :?: :?:

 

[Mike Jordan]

. My Record 78 can have the fence on either side as shown. You have the answer when you say the timber can be arranged with the grain in the right direction. You could use the grooving plane against the grain for a few strokes before dispensing with the fence and allowing the plane to follow the shallow groove in the right grain direction.

 

[Dr.Al]

. My Record 78 can have the fence on either side as shown. You have the answer when you say the timber can be arranged with the grain in the right direction. You could use the grooving plane against the grain for a few strokes before dispensing with the fence and allowing the plane to follow the shallow groove in the right grain direction.

Ooh, that's interesting. I'll have to go and have another look at the #78 (I must admit I wrote that post from memory). Maybe it was the depth stop that could only go on one side?

The idea with the plough plane sounds interesting. I'll have to have a play and see whether I can persuade it to follow a groove or whether I just make a mess of everything :eusa-whistle:

 

[Sheffield Tony]

Starting at the far end is the usual recommendation. Usually the finish of the bottom of a groove or rebate isn't a huge concern. It's also easier if your precision planes are very sharp, having not been used as a makeshift scrub plane

Sometimes the plough tears a bit at the side of the top of the groove - marking it with a gauge first or the spurs might help I guess. Beginning with light cuts ?

 

[Dr.Al]

. My Record 78 can have the fence on either side as shown. You have the answer when you say the timber can be arranged with the grain in the right direction. You could use the grooving plane against the grain for a few strokes before dispensing with the fence and allowing the plane to follow the shallow groove in the right grain direction.

Ooh, that's interesting. I'll have to go and have another look at the #78 (I must admit I wrote that post from memory). Maybe it was the depth stop that could only go on one side?

Yep, that was it - the depth stop only goes on one side, so if you mount the fence on the "wrong" side, you don't have a depth stop available.

Starting at the far end is the usual recommendation. Usually the finish of the bottom of a groove or rebate isn't a huge concern.

Sound like I need to get myself a few offcuts and do some practising next weekend.

It's also easier if your precision planes are very sharp, having not been used as a makeshift scrub plane

Ahem :eusa-whistle:

Sometimes the plough tears a bit at the side of the top of the groove - marking it with a gauge first or the spurs might help I guess. Beginning with light cuts ?

I usually (not that I've ploughed many grooves) do cut the edges (with a knife generally) before ploughing; maybe I need to be more tolerant of tear out and try taking lighter cuts all the way down. Again it sounds like I need more practice.

 

[Just4fun]

Sometimes the plough tears a bit at the side of the top of the groove - marking it with a gauge first or the spurs might help I guess. Beginning with light cuts ?

I have a wooden plough plane that sometimes gives this problem. It usually indicates that I don't have the fence parallel with the skate. If adjusted correctly it gives a much better result.

 

[AndyT]

A lot of the answer does come down to looking carefully at the grain and thinking ahead. You can't always plane "downhill" especially if making something planed on both sides, like a glazing bar. (The answer for that is clear straight grain. Good luck finding that in B&Q! )
That said, if you do end up planing against the grain, a freshly sharpened edge and a thinner shaving will help.

You might need to remove most of a rebate with a chisel and mallet, just planing to get the final surfaces right.

When the grain is right, the shaving from a ploughed groove in softwood can be as thick as thin card and will curl in a series of fractures rather than a continuous "ringlet."

 

[AndyT]

An afterthought: if you need to plane a rebate in the opposite direction because of awkward grain, and wanted to form the rebate just by planing, you could plane most of the way with the fence installed as usual, but getting a rough surface. Then remove the fence and depth stop and plane the other way, working up to your gauged lines.
This is what you would do if using a simple wooden rebate plane with no fence or depth stop. Sometimes a simple tool is quicker than setting up a specialist one.

But in most real construction, the surfaces of rebates and grooves get covered up and a bit of roughness is no problem.

 

[Dr.Al]

Thanks Andy, that's really helpful.

 

[NickM]

I’ve been wondering the same thing. As Andy says, thinking ahead would be a good idea but usually forget and Sod’s law means that I almost always seem to be planing rebates against the grain.

I did one this last weekend where I was cutting a shallow (2mm or so) rebate all around a box lid to make a fielded raised centre (helped with hing fitting and allowed an overhang all round the lid of the box). This lid (photo below) had a lot of work in it (veneered centre panel and inlay) and the first few passes on the rebates (against the grain) created terrible tear out. I had sharpened very carefully but was taking too heavy a cut. I went for the lightest shaving I could get and all was well in the end!

 

[Woodbloke]

I could never get on with those planes, especially the No.78 which I found dire at the best of times. Much as I like my hand tools, fenced planes don’t do it for me. All the ‘issues’ mentioned above can be easily sorted out with a decent cutter in a router table. It’s also remarkably easy to make a stopped rebate which is infinitely more difficult with hand tools - Rob

 

[NickM]

I could never get on with those planes, especially the No.78 which I found dire at the best of times. Much as I like my hand tools, fenced planes don’t do it for me. All the ‘issues’ mentioned above can be easily sorted out with a decent cutter in a router table. It’s also remarkably easy to make a stopped rebate which is infinitely more difficult with hand tools - Rob

I agree about stopped rebates/grooves. Router table every time for that. I haven’t found a sensible way of doing it by hand.

I do like using the rebate plane where I can though!

 

[AndyT]

Stopped rebates, like stopped grooves, can be cut with a chisel and finished off with a (hand) router. A bullnose plane can also be used.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

There's also the forward position that the cutter can be fitted on the #78 which gives a kind of bullnose. The real answer for a hand tool worker is to try your best to design out stopped grooves and rebates.

I have a Stanley 78, and a WS A78. I prefer the A78 - like the Woden W78 or Record 778, it has two arms so you can have the fence beyond the edge of the body (on either side) without it swiveling. And you can set it parallel to the body, and it covers all but the bit of the cutter you are using to reduce bloodshed. The WS casting is rather nice too, the bare metal parts have rather better finish than normal, and strangely resistant to rust.

 

[Woodbloke]

Stopped rebates, like stopped grooves, can be cut with a chisel and finished off with a (hand) router. A bullnose plane can also be used.

Done it, been there and it’s a complete and utter faff! :lol: When I build something I always, but always ask myself the same question…what’s the easiest way to do this bit? Sometimes it’s a hand tool and sometimes it’s machinery, in this case a router table. Cutting stopped rebates and grooves with hand tools only is not something I would ever relish, but if you only use hand tools to the exclusion of everything else, you ain’t really got any other options - Rob

 

[AndyT]

I don't disagree with your methods, Rob, I just have different ideas of what constitutes a faff. For me, it would be getting the electric router out of its box, rigging up something to cope with the dust, setting stops, making a test cut, ruining the work when something slips, then packing it all away again!

 

[Just4fun]

I use hand tools and making a stopped groove or rebate would not bother me. In fact it would be interesting. Faced with making dozens of them my attitude could well be different but, as has been said, if you only use hand tools you ain’t really got any other options.