• Hi all and welcome to TheWoodHaven2 brought into the 21st Century, kicking and screaming! We all have Alasdair to thank for the vast bulk of the heavy lifting to get us here, no more so than me because he's taken away a huge burden of responsibility from my shoulders and brought us to this new shiny home, with all your previous content (hopefully) still intact! Please peruse and feed back. There is still plenty to do, like changing the colour scheme, adding the banner graphic, tweaking the odd setting here and there so I have added a new thread in the 'Technical Issues, Bugs and Feature Requests' forum for you to add any issues you find, any missing settings or just anything you'd like to see added/removed from the feature set that Xenforo offers. We will get to everything over the coming weeks so please be patient, but add anything at all to the thread I mention above and we promise to get to them over the next few days/weeks/months. In the meantime, please enjoy!

Brexit

TM's not going to turn, end of. I was a 'remainer' as well, but I've got used to the idea that we're on the way out. One way or another, we'll muddle through and she'll get us the best deal, but the next couple of years are going to be messy. She's a pretty tough political cookie and I can't help but feel a little bit of sympathy (but not much) for the Eurocrats in Brussels who are going to cross swords with her - Rob
 
There is a lot of rhetoric on both sides, but for me, I simply cannot see that we hold any huge leverage over the rest of the EU - especially once article 50 is triggered. Everyone seems to agree that after 2 years we are then out with whatever deal we have been able to secure (or not). If we don't secure what we (the UK) want we are still out - we simply revert to 'rest of the world' status in terms of our dealings with the EU - this is obviously more costly than being part of the free trade area. I accept the arguments that this would also hurt the EU, but not as much as it would hurt us, bearing in mind we are a net importer of goods. The more negotiations drag towards that 2 year limit, the more twitchy business gets, stirred up be a partisan press who sensationalise the smallest story into a scare and are, for the most part, fiercely anti-EU, especially the red tops.

Re-balancing our economy and trading with the rest of the world will take time (probably decades, if at all). While pragmatic heads of state in Europe may want to deal, others will be far less inclined for a multitude of reasons - belief in the EU project and closer integration, to prevent similar votes to leave the EU from other members, to prevent independence votes from regional governments, fear of precedent and contagion, appeasement of their own electorate and so on. It is all well and good George Osbourne proposing to cut business tax to 15%, but how is the shortfall going to be made up?

New PM can be as stroppy (sorry, tough in negotiations) as she wants, but we are bluffing with a very weak hand, the EU know what cards we hold, will try and tempt the best of these to jump ship (finance to Paris or Frankfurt for example) and we are against the clock! For those that hope for the collapse of the EU in a domino effect, I don't think they appreciate the interconnected world and what this actually means. Deutsche Bank is currently close to insolvency, Italian banks need urgent recapitalisation (against EU rules) and Greece is still on life support. If the EU powers that be decide offering us a good deal will precipitate any of that then they have no choice but to be tough in negotiations - they would rather punish us than collapse their own house of cards and who can blame them?

I hope to goodness there are realistic and sensible people (on both sides) behind the scenes doing the best for a compromise deal that satisfies both parties enough. Neither will fully obtain what they desire and one can only hope that the hot air currently being spouted is not taken seriously - each needs to recognise that negotiation is the only way forward given the stakes.

I would anticipate our new PM touring EU heads of states as a 'how do you do tour' to disguise the negotiations we shouldn't have prior to article 50 initiation and to gauge the depth of feeling, scope for compromise and room for maneuver we actually have. I would also like to think negotiations are ongoing at the civil servant level at least between us and the EU.

Predictions - we will come out, but with a deal both sides can sell. We will get a points based immigration system that in reality will be a fudge but will enable us to obtain access to the free market at better than 'rest of world' status, but not as good as 'EU member' status. Timescale - Article 50 triggered before xmas on a 2 year window, but behind the scenes there will already be the basis of a deal and a plan on both sides of how to progress. We wont get everything Brexiteers want, but it will be sold as a victory nonetheless. The compromise on free movement will be enough for the EU to sell as a victory from their perspective. This will likely come down to 11th hour negotiations before being signed off!

Steve
 
I agree, a good and considered post.

My question is, even if we have a bad hand to play in the negotiations, how much does it matter?

For anyone who has not already read it I would recommend this paper (written before the vote in Feb 2016).

cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit01.pdf

[edit: sorry can't make this a hyperlink, but if you cut and paste into your browser it will take you to the paper]

At the time I believe there was some criticism of it from the Leave camp saying the body producing it received EU funding, but having read it I don't perceive bias. If you can't be bothered to read it all then at least look at the table on page 9 (page 11 of the pdf itself) summarising trade options outside the EU post Brexit.

The generally accepted view is that if we reach the 2 year mark and leave the EU with no trade deal we will default to the bottom option of WTO terms. I would then point you to the sentence on the preceeding page where it states: "But since the average tariff charged on imports to the EU is only 1% (World Bank, 2015), there is limited scope for further tariff reductions." So if we leave the EU and cannot negotiate a deal most of our exports to the EU will have a 1% tariff applied. What worries me is when the media keeps banging on about post Brexit tariffs they do not quantify them. Compare that 1% increase in UK export prices to the drop in the value of the pound versus the Euro since the vote and you can see the impact of those tariffs on goods is not material.

There are of course goods non tariff restrictions that can be applied and I do not know how far the WTO limits these, such as quotas. Also, his applies only to goods, not the 12% of exports that are classified as services.

As Steve rightly says the main problem here is a lot of hype and little consideration of facts from both camps.

Terry.
 
Halo Jones":1bowjaql said:
Well it has started to hit us woodworkers:

http://brodiestimber.co.uk/news/

Brodies is a small company so could not absorb a 9% hit on their stock but how long will it be before the likes of Axminster are forced to follow :cry:

So that's a huge Thank You to all those who voted to Leave. It's only the beginning, I fear.
 
RogerS":1isprf7g said:
Halo Jones":1isprf7g said:
Well it has started to hit us woodworkers:

http://brodiestimber.co.uk/news/

Brodies is a small company so could not absorb a 9% hit on their stock but how long will it be before the likes of Axminster are forced to follow :cry:

So that's a huge Thank You to all those who voted to Leave. It's only the beginning, I fear.

Seems to me that if Jet have responded this quickly it is most likely a result of opportunism or mismanagement. In the past did they change their prices on a monthly basis to take account of movements in exchange rates? I suspect the answer is "no". And the reason for that is that any company with competent management will have hedged foreign currency revenues, so they are insulated from exactly this type of currency fluctuation and have time to respond in a considered way.

Edit: I also note the promotions were only launched on 28th June, i.e. five days after the referendum and at a point when the pound was already at about $1.32, i.e. pretty much the same as it is today. So my belief this is opportunism or mismanagement is merely reinforced.

Terry.
 
Wizard9999":faif6vco said:
Halo Jones":faif6vco said:
how long will it be before the likes of Axminster are forced to follow :cry:

Looking at the price of the PT on the Axminster web site I suspect Axminster have already raised the price.

Terry.


At one time axi would set prices for the new catalogue each january and endeavour to hold them for the whole year. Each year the prices would cause a sharp intake of breath as they hedged against dollar movements as most import costs were linked to the USD. I suspect the demise of the paper catalogue means they can adjust prices at will.

Personally, whilst axi customer service is second to virtually none, their prices are either on the market level or usually higher.

Bob
 
Tusses":2vgaegek said:
I have a crazy idea ....

buy British ?

But we stopped making a lot of stuff that we buy.

On a slightly different note has anyone noticed how the quality of many goods, and I'm particularly thinking about clothes and men's shirts especially, have deteriorated over the last few years. I have some Ralph Lauren shirts that Ive had for well over ten years and some are starting to look tired. So we looked at what was available in their range and leaving aside that they are now a bit like Henry Ford - you can have any style as long as it's striped (and I hate striped shirts), the quality of the fabric is dire.
 
RogerS":s7mvnbtp said:
Tusses":s7mvnbtp said:
I have a crazy idea ....

buy British ?

But we stopped making a lot of stuff that we buy.

On a slightly different note has anyone noticed how the quality of many goods, and I'm particularly thinking about clothes and men's shirts especially, have deteriorated over the last few years. I have some Ralph Lauren shirts that Ive had for well over ten years and some are starting to look tired. So we looked at what was available in their range and leaving aside that they are now a bit like Henry Ford - you can have any style as long as it's striped (and I hate striped shirts), the quality of the fabric is dire.

Yup, I have some t-shirts bought in the US many years ago, they were nothing special and not a top brand but the material was super thick and brilliant quality. On my last couple of visits I have noticed the quality has come right down to an equivalent to the UK and rest of the world.

Terry.
 
Tusses":2eu7o0x4 said:
RogerS":2eu7o0x4 said:
Tusses":2eu7o0x4 said:
I have a crazy idea ....

buy British ?

But we stopped making a lot of stuff that we buy.

<SNIP>

My point exactly ! what an opportunity to make the best again !

Here Here!

I'd like to at least some of alleged savings from Brexit invested in British industry and technical education.
Whilst we still have some of the skills in the older workforce to bring to bear and train up apprentices in making stuff.
Then if trade tariffs from abroad are higher than we would like we can design/make/assemble our own goods once more.
 
Meanwhile on the news just now, we can expect any imported fruit and veg and other foods to go up by around 20% in August.

Well done, :eusa-clap: [/sarcasm]
 
RogerS":2asqna8h said:
Meanwhile on the news just now, we can expect any imported fruit and veg and other foods to go up by around 20% in August.

Well done, :eusa-clap: [/sarcasm]

When Alanis Morissette released her first album I remember reading one of the best reviews of an album of all time...

"He dumped you, get over it!"
 
I thought a somewhat more considered response may be appreciated (by some anyway).

On 8th May 2015, immediately after the general election when it became pretty certain there would be a European referendum the pound traded against the dollar at 1.545261.
Six months later it had not moved much at 1.512372.
But by February 2016 it had dropped to 1.386762.
On 9th May 2016 it was back up a bit at 1.441297.
On the day of the referendum before results started to come in it had risen further to 1.479794.

So between the general election and its pre-referendum low point the pound fell by 0.158499 or 10.3%.
Between February 2016 and the day of the referendum the pound increased in value by 0.093032 or 6.7%.
Since the referendum the pound has fallen by 0.164994 or 11.1%.
Between February 2016 and today the pound is down by 0.071962 or 5.1%.

So, the fall in the pound since the vote is only a little greater than between May 2015 and February 2016 and the fall between that earlier low and now is only about 5.1%. In February 2016 I do not recall the media awash with stories of runaway inflation driven by more costly imports nor do I remember emergency price increases of woodworking machinery, yet now it seems it is a news worthy story.

With inflation so low even very small absolute moves are in percentage terms seemingly quite large. Between May 2015 and February 2016 CPI increased from 1.0% to 1.3%, or 30%. So if we have now seen a fall in the pound equivalent in percentage terms, can we expect a further 30% increase in CPI, if so then based on the May 2016 figure of 1.4% it would rise to roughly 1.7%. Now of course, any A level economics student will tell you inflation is a lagging measure, so you could argue my analysis is flawed. But as a lagging measure, why are we see such immediate and dramatic reported increases in the prices of some imported goods?

Now this is all based on the pound vs US dollar rate. So what about the much more sensible trade weighted index. That hit a 28 month low on 6th April 2016 at 83.39, media stories of imported inflation? Today the trade weighted average is at 79.5 or only 4.7% lower.

So why the stories of imported inflation? Some companies using the vote to make a quick buck by using it as an excuse to raise prices when there is limited justification? Journalists with an axe to grind? Disgruntled Remain voters looking for a basis to make 'I told you so' claims? Who knows, but if you actually take the time to look at the facts it is not quite as some people would like you to believe.

Whether the vote to leave the EU will be an economic disaster or a new dawn remains to be seen, but it will only be possible to make that judgement in years, not after weeks.
 
Part of the problem is 24hr rolling news on TV and falling newspaper sales. A headline of "let's wait and see" will never cut it with the editors on TV or print.

Fluctations have and always will happen, now the politicians from both sides will have an extra excuse. When things get good the leave camp will say it is because we left. In hard times the remain camp will say it is because we left.
 
RogerS":1ith1swy said:
Doug":1ith1swy said:
From what I've read there is a very great fear within government & further afield about mass civil unrest should article 50 be delayed too long or not evoked at all.

It's not in our psyche to take to the streets. OK - you get some anarchists, but most Brits are pretty stoical, I think.

Looks like they are trying to lay the ground works.https://voteleaveuk.com/2016/11/03/if-p ... ce-brexit/
 
I'm pretty much glued to BBC 24 hour news from about 0600 every day ,several times during the day , and lastly at around 23.30-midnight . And when I get bored I look at BBC Parliament . Despite this , there are some things about the workings of parliament on which I'm not clear - if/when our MP's vote on Article 50 will it be laced in some way with "lets not do it yet " , or " lets not do it at all " , will we get to know which MP's stabbed the Leavers in the back ? or will it be a secret ballot ? . That article from the Democratic Party is pretty damming against Theresa May but I don't think she has a hidden agenda and frankly , even the economics of leaving the EU are going to pale into insignifigance compared with the political minefield and complexities of Scotland trying to remain , and Wales , who knows , and Northern Ireland's border conundrum . Mrs May needs to be getting on with those problems , not be distracted by this nonsense about whether we might remain after all . If the Remainers get their way it will be the biggest political disgrace in modern history . This is only the beginning of the beginning , lets just get on with it .

Steve
 
This sums up what has been achieved to date.



or alternatively ...

istock_can-of-worms.jpg


I'm thrilled to bits that I'm now paying 10p a litre more for my diesel and that going abroad now is not really affordable.
 
I think that it is more of a

storm_in_a_teacup_by_kritter5x-d31kwvp.jpg


I said way back that Brexit will be used as the excuse for the fall or rise in anything and everything. Fuel prices have risen here too since the low in the summer. More to do with events in mid east,asia and russia methinks.

I am quite enjoying shopping in the UK :D
 
This is exactly what I meant in the other thread... "I tell you, my blood is boiling, especially since watching the headline news tonight."

Brexit and the High Court.

I thought something like this was going to happen - and this is democracy. It's more like a sham!
 
Andyp":250oqzmo said:
......
I am quite enjoying shopping in the UK :D

No debate. The dire fall in the value of sterling against the dollar and Euro is 100% down to Brexit.
 
Pinch":1nmx5599 said:
This is exactly what I meant in the other thread... "I tell you, my blood is boiling, especially since watching the headline news tonight."

Brexit and the High Court.

I thought something like this was going to happen - and this is democracy. It's more like a sham!

Umm...I thought that Brexiteers wanted sovereignty? They seemed to be banging on about it all the time. With sovereignty comes the law of the land. Exactly what the three High Court judges applied when they reached their Article 50 decision.

So, I'm afraid, Brexiteers...you'll just have to suck it up :D
 
Pinch":2e57bmkg said:
This is exactly what I meant in the other thread... "I tell you, my blood is boiling, especially since watching the headline news tonight."

Brexit and the High Court.

I thought something like this was going to happen - and this is democracy. It's more like a sham!

I think that all the high court has decided is that parliament must be consulted. What is wrong with that? The alternative is that the PM can make decisions without consulting parliament, is that fair? The MPs will be consulted and, IF a vote is called will, with the exception of the SNP, will go along with the referendum vote.

Caveat, I have not read the details of the court ruling.
 
RogerS":2zbfawkg said:
9fingers":2zbfawkg said:
....
I for one am far better off since 23rd June.

Bob

How so? Did you short sterling ?

No. No deliberate action on my part. I run my spreadsheet on my net worth (apart from property) once per month just to give me an idea of how things are going. Until some one can tell me how much long term care for SWMBO will cost it is a bit meaningless but I take comfort when it is going up each month!
1 month less to pay out and more to pay it from :lol:
Comparing 1st June to 1st Nov, I'm up 10.16% 1st July- 1st Nov up 7.97%

Bob
 
Come on chaps, we all know the 'big boys & girls' are rolling the dice to suit themselves. Now that has always been the 'Law of the Land' and it always will be.

The game continues.......

:lol: :lol: :lol:
 
I've just watch last night's Question Time.

Apart from the 'wearing the poppy' little chat and how the panel all agreed in a weird sort of false redemption (it was almost touching), how poignant it is (smiling at one another in unity) they seem to forget why they're actually wearing them. Yet, they indirectly invented the poppy.

The Brixit argument is a joke! We, as a nation, are a joke! I would imagine the world are laughing at us as a nation. It's embarrassing.

Years ago, I happily abstracted myself from society and lived in the woods for a year, hiding myself from the world and all the corrupt bullsh1t, until someone came along and said "You can't do that!" I was then thrown back into society to live as they do. Question Time, This Week and other political general agenda programmes are all a part of the big plan in making out we have a say. It's utter rubbish. I forgot why I stopped watching these programmes and tonight, I've remembered.

It's a load of ball bags!
 
Pinch":3u0qrv4e said:
The Brixit argument is a joke! We, as a nation, are a joke! I would imagine the world are laughing at us as a nation. It's embarrassing.

We're not laughing at you. Well, maybe after next Tuesday we'll laugh at you. Maybe...

Kirk
 
kirkpoore1":xu789ovj said:
Pinch":xu789ovj said:
The Brixit argument is a joke! We, as a nation, are a joke! I would imagine the world are laughing at us as a nation. It's embarrassing.

We're not laughing at you. Well, maybe after next Tuesday we'll laugh at you. Maybe...

Kirk

Sorry Kirk, I should have said Europe and not the world. :|

Yes, I'm sure the whole world will be watching the US this Tuesday. Good luck. 8-)
 
Cheers Bob. Yeah, I was going to delete and then I thought it would look a bit odd, so I put my hands up instead with an 'oops sorry'.

There's a 'naughty corner' in our house and I stand in it quite a lot. I'm also forever putting money in the swear box. :|
 
Pinch":10zc17qa said:
There's a 'naughty corner' in our house and I stand in it quite a lot. I'm also forever putting money in the swear box. :|

I hear a rumour your missus is a millionaire :D
 
Andyp":39ora6po said:
Pinch":39ora6po said:
There's a 'naughty corner' in our house and I stand in it quite a lot. I'm also forever putting money in the swear box. :|

I hear a rumour your missus is a millionaire :D

:lol: :lol:
 
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