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Camvac remote switch problem - SORTED AGAIN

Andy

If it is any help I have to say it was much easier for me to understand the instructions Dave provided when I had the relay, it all made sense then. Of course, as Dave had done exactly the same as I was doing I had the benefit of his excellent pictures, so I had a real advantage there.

Terry.
 
OK guys thanks for keeping with me. A lot going on here with the family at the moment so best if we pick this up again when the relay arrives.
I do understand what the relay is doing, effectively reducing the load (amps) on the RC socket. It is wiring the relay that has me confused. As I say when the relay arrives I'll get all the bits together and if I still don't get it I'll come back here.
The solution and my incompetence may well help others in the future so happy for it to remain public.
 
OK, I am nearly ready to have another crack at this.

Here are most of the bits laid out - I still need the crimps and crimping tool and a box to keep the dust off the relay.



The idea is that remote socket will open and close the relay which will switch the current on and off to the socket into which the Camvac will be plugged.

And here is the close up of the relay with wiring diagram.



It would help me a lot if someone could tell be which of the blue, brown & yellow/green wires from each cable attach to which of the 8 numbered terminals on the relay.
A handsome reward of beer tokens awaits :D

advTHANKSance
 
Yellow and greens go together and not to anything else!

Brown from the remote goes to 7 and 5 (7 is one connection to the relay coil)

Blue from the remote goes to 8 and 6 (8 is the other connection to the coil).

Brown to your Camvac socket goes to 3

Blue to your Camvac socket goes to 4

So what you end up with is the live feed going into the relay contacts on 5 which is a changeover contact. When the relay is de-energised 5 is connected to 1 (you can see this in the diagram). When you energise the relay(coil) from your remote switch then the contacts changeover and 5 now connects to 3 and feeds your Camvac socket.

The above assumes that the diagram on the relay is showing the contacts in their de-energised state.

If you have a mutimeter with ohms then when the relay is de-energised, you should measure zero resistance between 1 and 5 and also zero resistance between 2 and 6
 
I agree with Bob :)

There needs to be a second mains lead with a plug on it. power to the camvac comes from a standard socket and the missing lead. the one from the RC socket just powers the relay coil and nothing else.
 
Hi Andy,

you have a second plug and lead missing from your collection of parts.

With what you have, how would the camvac get its power source? If you looked at my diagram earlier and checked off the parts you might have spotted that?

Here is the revised diagram with terminal number and cable colours marked on.



Hope this helps and I really would like to think that you understand why it is correct and also why Rogers version is wrong, in that hopefully you can extend your knowledge/understanding rather than just copy and not learn anything.

HTH

Bob

PS my drawing programme does not have green and yellow stripe colour fill but Green is earth above.
 
TBH Bob .. that isn't clear to me ! lol ..

is the "Standard Socket" the Mains in ?
if so, how does the "switch" get triggered ?

if the remote socket is Mains in, How is it triggered , and not "on" when the mains is on ?

I am assuming that the machine on off should trigger the remote ?

Maybe I should re-read this from the start ! lol
 
Thanks Bob & Robert

9fingers":1qog7gq5 said:
With what you have, how would the camvac get its power source?
Click to expand...

The Camvac will be plugged into the grey socket on the right which is what 5 & 6 will be connected to.

What I am missing is the plug and socket to which 3 & 4 are connected to.
This is the bit I have misunderstood. I had not grasped that the relay would need two power sources, one just to power the relay (7 & 8) and one to power the Camvac (3 & 4). Have I got it?

Roger, I appreciate your help too. I hope that when I have finished we will have all learned something .
 
Andyp":18epmuqx said:
Thanks Bob & Robert

9fingers":18epmuqx said:
With what you have, how would the camvac get its power source?
Click to expand...

The Camvac will be plugged into the grey socket on the right which is what 5 & 6 will be connected to.

What I am missing is the plug and socket to which 3 & 4 are connected to.
This is the bit I have misunderstood. I had not grasped that the relay would need two power sources, one just to power the relay (7 & 8) and one to power the Camvac (3 & 4). Have I got it?

Roger, I appreciate your help too. I hope that when I have finished we will have all learned something .
Click to expand...


Andy, I think you have got it now BUT what I cannot understand is how you have had my diagram for some time and not grasped that it needed two power inputs. I had shown two sockets at the top of the diagram.
Put another way, how could your first impressions ever have relieved the remote socket of the current drawn by the camvac?
Bob
 
Bob,
9fingers":11mg0edj said:
Andyp":11mg0edj said:
Thanks Bob & Robert

9fingers":11mg0edj said:
With what you have, how would the camvac get its power source?
Click to expand...

The Camvac will be plugged into the grey socket on the right which is what 5 & 6 will be connected to.

What I am missing is the plug and socket to which 3 & 4 are connected to.
This is the bit I have misunderstood. I had not grasped that the relay would need two power sources, one just to power the relay (7 & 8) and one to power the Camvac (3 & 4). Have I got it?

Roger, I appreciate your help too. I hope that when I have finished we will have all learned something .
Click to expand...


Andy, I think you have got it now BUT what I cannot understand is how you have had my diagram for some time and not grasped that it needed two power inputs. I had shown two sockets at the top of the diagram.
Put another way, how could your first impressions ever have relieved the remote socket of the current drawn by the camvac?
Bob
Click to expand...

Okay, okay. It all seems kind of obvious now. Thanks for sticking with me. It may have taken a while to sink in but It seems that I have not been the only one, just the one prepared to stick his head over the parapet. :D Mighty glad it was not shot off BTW :D

I'll get back on this when complete, but that may be a week or two.
 
For any late comers the domestic remote control socket controlling the Camvac was not man enough to cope with the 2kw load when both Camvac motors are on and kept cutting out.
The solution was to use the RC socket to control a relay.

Cost:-
relay £7.14 inc delivery from Chiwan.
10 female connectors €2.30 (actually cheaper to buy 100)
1 crimping tool €8.00, cheapest I could find off the shelf but does the job.

It works, not that I ever doubted it would.

Indebted to Bob for his excellent drawings and never ending patience coping with my ineptitude in understanding them and for reassuring my at the last minute that the lovely blue green flash provided by the relay when switching off is quite normal and for advising me in no uncertain terms that I could not just cut off the earth wires.



 
Back to square one.
Yesterdays test was just a quick on and off again after just a couple of seconds. Today I have tried to use the Camvac in earnest and after about 10 seconds use the remote socket triggers the relay. I have tried on other tools in the workshop without an issue so how comes the relay triggers when attached to the Camvac?

Double checked Bob's diagram and definitely all connected correctly.
 
I suspect that you are suffering from radio interference from the spawn of satan brush motors in the camvac.
There is usually a filter inside the camvac but it is only a token.

Try plugging the remote receiver in as far as possible from the camvac ie inside your work area and use an extension lead between the remote output and the relay box and see if it works better.

Bob
 
After extensive testing the closest I can have the remote socket without it tripping is in the garage, a good 25 yards from the workshop. I had it running for a good 20mins while I cut some oak bowl blanks on the bandsaw but not really practical to leave the workshop and walk nearly to the garage door to turn off the Camvac.

So it looks as if it is radio interference rather than the RC socket's ability to cope with the load from the Camvac.
Do I try and other RC socket or do I go back to plan A and have a pull switch on he ceiling?
 
Somewhere on the remote transmitter it should state the radio frequency it uses.
170 ish MHz, 430 ish and 860 ish MHz. you could try one of a higher or radically different frequency.

I can bring as decent filter when I come over which might help?

Bob
 
Bob, the remote states a freq of 433.92 mhz. A quick search reveals all the obvious outlets have RC sockets on the same frequency.

Tell me more about the "decent filter". Can I buy and fit myself? Not that you are not welcome or course but I would like to solve this problem ASAP as it is driving me nuts.

When you are next over this way?
 
Filter will be one from my junk box and needs fitting where the power enters the camvac. Possibly as a wart on the outside. We will be over around end of September.
I might have a ferrite polo I could send you to try. I'll have a look in a while and see what I have handy.
Bob
 
Do you mean something like this?

NS100-510x600.jpg
 
Well sort of but this is a grown up one.



You wind the power cable through as many times as possible like this and locate it as near to the source of interference or crapvac as we like to think of it as!





I'll get it into the post to you tomorrow. Dont drop it! they are made of a brittle iron loaded ceramic with limited bounce factor.

Cheers

Bob
 
Thanks Bob, I'll see you right when you pop by.

Do you think i can loop the cable through it without having to remove either the plug or unwire the cable from the Camvac.
 
Andyp":z89wz2hg said:
Thanks Bob, I'll see you right when you pop by.

Do you think i can loop the cable through it without having to remove either the plug or unwire the cable from the Camvac.
Click to expand...

Don't worry it came out the scrap box.....
No Andy do it properly with the plug off and the ring as close to source of the interference. You want as many turns through the toroid as possible for best effect.

Bob
 
No need for blocks of chocolate Bob, I have plenty of terminal blocks. Unless you mean the real think of course. :D
 
Andyp":5ydpeqnc said:
No need for blocks of chocolate Bob, I have plenty of terminal blocks. Unless you mean the real think of course. :D
Click to expand...


All packed up before I read this Andy. No problem I have loads - buy em in bulk pack of 12 sticks in three sizes.
Never knowingly understocked!

Just off to post office now

Bob
 
IT WORKS - again.

Thanks to Bob and the addition of a ferrite toroid I have the RC socket and Camvac working normally again.

I managed 6 loops of cable around the ferrite toroid right close to the Camvac. A quick re-routing of the cable back to the workshop and so far so good.



So the problem was not the RC socket not coping with the power surge when the Camvac was switched on but a failure somewhere of the RFI suppression. I will continue to use the relay as it will protect the RC socket from future wear.

Here is Bob's explanation of likely causes
1) Increased source of RFI from the camvac, changes in brush wear, progressive or total failure of the feeble RFI filter in the camvac. These are call delta capacitors and marginally effective as they have no series inductance (these are notorious for going bang or phutt with age and fail in a way that the machine continues to work)

2) More effective coupling of the radiated interference into the RC socket. This include wiring changes, differing layout of metal objects in the radio path etc even the presence of bodies - 150lbs of wet meat make a difference.

3) Failure/degradation of components in the RC socket, thus conduction more interference into the receiver electronics

4) Battery condition and or failure degradation of the the transmitter unit causing it to transmit reduced power. Even how you hold it can make a difference. This latter class would normally only mean that it would become difficult to turn off.

5) Insufficient coding strength in the commands sent over the wireless link meaning that there is insufficient difference between the signal sent to turn off and the pattern of interference from the camvac such that the receiver becomes confused and interprests the RFI signal as an "off" coded command.
Click to expand...

So apart from not hanging my road kill carcasses (see point 2) in the barn I do not think there is much else I can do.

Thanks again Bob.
 
Yet another lesson in life.
After getting details from Bob for the relay. I went on line then to Amaz!! on the thursday for a relay for a fiver delivered free saying one in stock and delivery by the 30th Aug. Assuming the stock item was in the UK paid on PP the following day got the blurb its coming from HK. On complaining about the wait, I was told I never have stock in the UK, my query so how come you have one left and delivery buy the tuesday. Offered a rebate and got the relay on Saturday the 3rd.

Oh well just got to rig it up. Tested the relay all AOK. No RFI probs, only got to remember where I last put the sender :lol:

Thanks Bob
 
I buy quite few bits and bobs from HK and China mainly via ebay and sometimes via Amazon.

Some items take about 2-3weeks and come with Chinese/HK post marks and customs forms etc etc but there is a second business model operated by some sellers that I've observed.

The ads usually say UK stock and delivery in 5-7 days. When the goods come they are in UK packaging, UK franking and nearly always via post office.

I'm pretty certain that the vendors combine all the orders for that day, ship as one parcel air freight (no idea what they do about customs but I never get charged duty) to a UK distribution point - many seem to be in Portsmouth(?) and then onwards via Uk second class post.

It all works fine just a bit of a niggle that they say UK stock which is a very marginal truth.

Bob
 
After what seemed an initial success the RC socket is again failing. This time even when plugged in 25m away in the garage. So I have admitted defeat and bought another RC socket. I will still use the relay setup to protect the RC socket.
 
The power take off on my extractor has started playing up recently so I've been looking at alternative ways of switching the vac on automatically as I start a power tool, a search has come up with these http://www.toolovation.co.uk/iVAC_vacuu ... _s/153.htm don't know if it would help in your situation Andy but I thought I'd post it up just in case it was of help to you or anyone else.
 
Doug":1cnsmw2s said:
The power take off on my extractor has started playing up recently so I've been looking at alternative ways of switching the vac on automatically as I start a power tool, a search has come up with these http://www.toolovation.co.uk/iVAC_vacuu ... _s/153.htm don't know if it would help in your situation Andy but I thought I'd post it up just in case it was of help to you or anyone else.
Click to expand...


Thanks Doug, if I were only using the Camvac on one machine that might be an (expensive) option. None of my machines are static. P/T, tablesaw, bandsaw, lathe, and bench drill all get wheeled out and plugged in to a multitude of sockets around the shop.

I will see how the new RC socket (£16) holds up. If it fails then I really think the shower cord switch off the celling is the way to go.
 
Andyp":3rgxdhkl said:
After what seemed an initial success the RC socket is again failing. This time even when plugged in 25m away in the garage. So I have admitted defeat and bought another RC socket. I will still use the relay setup to protect the RC socket.
Click to expand...

Is it failing as in 'not responding to the control' ? Could you try a different channel on both it and the remote control? That's what I did with my one from Maplin. The On button in channel 1 on my remote controller that I used for the large extractor remote failed and so I simply changed the remote switch and channel on the remote controller to Channel 2. Job done.
 
RogerS":3d4976yu said:
Andyp":3d4976yu said:
After what seemed an initial success the RC socket is again failing. This time even when plugged in 25m away in the garage. So I have admitted defeat and bought another RC socket. I will still use the relay setup to protect the RC socket.
Click to expand...

Is it failing as in 'not responding to the control' ? Could you try a different channel on both it and the remote control? That's what I did with my one from Maplin. The On button in channel 1 on my remote controller that I used for the large extractor remote failed and so I simply changed the remote switch and channel on the remote controller to Channel 2. Job done.
Click to expand...

No Roger, by failing I mean the remote control switches it on but after a few seconds the RC socket switches off all by itself. I have tried all 4 channels and all 4 buttons, I replaced the battery in the control as well all to no avail.
I was using the Camvac and new RC socket on and off for a couple of hours yesterday, no problem.
 
Fair enough Andy, though I'd point out I've presently set out a run of sockets around the workshop that are plugged into the extractor's power take off, obviously I can only use one of these sockets at a time otherwise I'd overload the vacuum but it means I don't have to bother with switching on the extractor, I simply plug in the tool I wish to use, connect the dust hose & everytime I switch the tool on the extractor fires up.

I ended up with this system as I was fed up with initially going to a fixed switch to turn on the extractor, I then moved on to remote sockets but after going through 3 different brands non of which lasted long I came up with the system I have now.

The only down side is I bought a second hand extractor with power take off due to the general cost of this type of machine which is why I've been looking at auto switches as this extractor plays up occasionally. Whilst the unit I linked to isn't cheap I could buy 3 of these for the price of 1 Axminster home brand switch so I don't think it is overly expensive & it means I can utilise my Camvac in the same system.


Edit:- I'd also add I now don't have to play hunt the remote, a frequently occurring game when I did use remote sockets :lol:
 
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