Do building regs apply to outbuildings?

[Doug71]

I am just wondering if some windows I am making for a customer require opening restrictors, the customer doesn't want them on and I am just checking to cover my back really.

The windows are for some old farm outbuildings, I say farm but it's not a working farm anymore, it was all sold off when the farmer died and someone bought the old farmhouse, outbuildings and a couple of acres of land for their horses. The house and the outbuildings are listed but the listed building chap wasn't really interested in the outbuildings, they have had a lot of dodgy work done over the years and he was happy to just see them improved (saved) as long as there were no major changes and it was all in keeping. There is a real mix of windows in them at the moment and he is happy with the replacement style I am making.

The windows in question are three windows on the first floor of an outbuilding, they are probably about 600mm off the floor, if it was habitable they would need opening restrictors but currently this building isn't used for anything, they are only fitting new windows to tidy it up and keep the weather out. The outbuildings are not joined to the house in any way.


The problem with restrictors is that the windows are a traditional inset casement style and the only restrictors I have seen for this style screw on the back of the windows with a cable between the frame and sash which don't look great, despite the building not being used they are still bothered about the details.

At the moment there is a 3' x 3' hole in the wall where one of the windows is going (has been like that for years) and the room they are in is accessed by an old external stone staircase which has no handrail etc.

Not sure if I'm overthinking this but any opinions or advice is appreciated.

Sorry for waffling, Doug

 

[RogerS]

Mike's your man for this but my gut feel is that you don't.

 

[AJB Temple]

Surely, it is the responsibility of the building owner, not you, to comply with regs and listing requirements. If you get them to give you a simple letter stating that you have no compliance role with regs or listing, and your are merely a supplier of a window to their specification, then your risk is minimal or zero.

 

[RogerS]

Surely, it is the responsibility of the building owner, not you, to comply with regs and listing requirements. If you get them to give you a simple letter stating that you have no compliance role with regs or listing, and your are merely a supplier of a window to their specification, then your risk is minimal or zero.

Theoretically, you're right, Adrian. But in my experience and that of others similarly involved, it's part of the service we provide as part of the 'deal'.

 

[AJB Temple]

There is no theory at all if the person making the windows gets a letter as suggested. Standard legal principle and certainly what I would do, making it a partial supply and fit contract with owner responsible (in writing) for meeting safety requirements and regs themselves.

There are very many things that a seller can supply without accepting any liability for their eventual application and use.

My disclaimer: I no longer practice law or finance and do not give advice. All comments are mere opinion and are worth exactly what you paid for them.

 

[RogerS]

There is no theory at all if the person making the windows gets a letter as suggested. Standard legal principle and certainly what I would do, making it a partial supply and fit contract with owner responsible (in writing) for meeting safety requirements and regs themselves.

.....

If I had done that then a lot of my customers would have gone elsewhere.

 

[Mike G]

If you are creating a habitable space, and if the building is above 30 square metres, then all Building Regs apply. However, you only need to show compliance at the moment of inspection, and as soon as the inspector's car is out of the drive the owner can do what he wants. I couldn't begin to give advice in this matter because this is between you and your customer, but so long as you write to him/ her saying that you believe restrictors may be required (please tell me the low windows will be safety glazed!), and that their supply would be an extra as you've been instructed not to provide them initially, then you've surely covered yourself. A restrictor being as ugly as sin is unimportant if the owner (not you) unscrews them and bins them post-inspection.

 

[RogerS]

If you are creating a habitable space, and if the building is above 30 square metres, then all Building Regs apply. However, you only need to show compliance at the moment of inspection, and as soon as the inspector's car is out of the drive the owner can do what he wants. I couldn't begin to give advice in this matter because this is between you and your customer, but so long as you write to him/ her saying that you believe restrictors may be required (please tell me the low windows will be safety glazed!), and that their supply would be an extra as you've been instructed not to provide them initially, then you've surely covered yourself. A restrictor being as ugly as sin is unimportant if the owner (not you) unscrews them and bins them post-inspection.

Does that mean the space must be habitable AND over 30 square metres, Mike ?

The definition of 'habitable' that I found on the web is

Habitable room means a room or enclosed floor space within a dwelling unit used or designed to be used for living, sleeping, cooking, or eating purposes, excluding bathrooms, water closet compartments, laundries, pantries, foyers or communicating corridors, closets, and storage spaces.

Which I think rules out Doug's situation. And also our orangerie

 

[AJB Temple]

My point really Roger is that if as a contractor you think something may be required for safety, or compliance, then you should supply it. If the customer instructs you not to supply and fit it then it is reasonable to get a letter from them that is specific and absolving you of liability - as you would be unwise to accept liability for any risk or non-compliance and very likely to invalidate your insurance (for a known breach). Lawyers deal with such things regularly.

If your customer thinks it is unreasonable to supply such a letter, then you have a very clear signal how that customer will behave when things go wrong. Such customers are best avoided in my book.

There are cases where a contractor should in any case refuse to do the work, such as knowingly installing non-compliant gas or electrical works, or a stair bannister that is not child safe. Just my lay opinion now of course.

 

[Doug71]

Thanks chaps.

A bit of research made me think because the building was over 30m2 regs might apply.

I always understood that it was down to the person who fits the window to make sure it complies.

The opening restrictors are about £15 each so it seems daft fitting them to just remove them again although my concern was that they are a safety feature.

I think the letter to the customer saying that restrictors are required and he will be fitting them could be the way forwards, he is a reasonable guy and I am sure he will be happy with that.

 

[Mike G]

........Does that mean the space must be habitable AND over 30 square metres, Mike ?.....

Well, sort of. Non habitable buildings only need to comply with a certain number of the regulations. I mean, a detached garage over 30 sq m. isn't going to need to comply with Part L (Heat Loss), for instance. The whole lot apply to a habitable building, though. And the definition of habitable isn't set down in writing, although no doubt there is some case-law surrounding it. It is very much in the opinion of the local council, unless you want to test this in a courtroom.

 

[ScaredyCat]

just wanted to point out that listings on properties are for the entire curtilage of them, eg garden buildings, outhouses sheds etc. Whilst the current planning person might not care, be mindful that they can come at you at a later date and demand rectification.

I understand this isn't your problem it's the owner's, but I thought I'd mention it.

As an aside, I live in a town where most of the buildings are listed and dealing with the listing people is a massive pain (they'd rather see a derelict building than one used that had modifications) and most people round here don't bother telling them when they do stuff. I've never really understood the logic of listing of properties. I mean I understand why they do it but their logic is broken. Half of the country houses round here were modified by their owners in the 1800's in ways that aren't "in keeping", my own house is listed, but it was listed after someone built an extension on the back in the 1980's. This makes the extension listed too, on a building built in 1605. My garden wall is also listed. We tried to get a new front door, they basically want the same design as it is now - except they want the hinges to be different - but those hinges are from when the house was renovated in the 80's, when it was listed. Listing rules just seem to be your local listed property persons *ankfest. </rant>

 

[Cabinetman]

I was asked to fit a door and frame at the top of a staircase once, this meant that when you opened the door from the room the first thing that met you was a step downwards followed by another dozen, a quick look at the rules and I thought, run away quickly Ian. She wanted the door by the way because she had grandchildren coming to stay!