Eterno Ivica Star.T. tile support system.

[RogerS]

I've got an outside terrace to tile using bloody heavy 800 x 400 porcelain tiles. 5.6m x 3.2m - approx 56 tiles in total. 20mm thick. Originally planned to use the traditional approach of tile adhesive and notched. Only trouble with that approach is how do you lay them without having to wait a day for the adhesive to dry underneath the previous row. As with that sort of size I can't easily see how one can reach over the layer just laid to do the next one. Youtube isn't much help.

The very thick solid concrete (well hardened) substrate has the right slope on it and good to go. Only trouble is that the finished height of the slab assumed the traditional tile fixing approach.

So I looked into pedestal systems (totally new to me as a concept) and most seemed too high. But the lowest one is the Eterno Ivica Star.T. at 10mm..which is the thickness of adhesive!

https://www.eternoivica.com/en/posts/ne ... n-supports

Height-wise it's perfect..the only downside I can see is that you don't grout between the tiles.

Anyone used this system before ?

Would not having any grout be bad ? The gaps between the tiles when laid look to be quite small..maybe 2mm.

The other downside is cost...£200 by my reckoning. But my fingers and thumbs aren't what they used to be and my years allowance of profanities has already been used up on other projects.

 

[TrimTheKing]

Erm, surely you start at one place and work towards yourself rather than working away, or am I missing something here...

 

[RogerS]

Erm, surely you start at one place and work towards yourself rather than working away, or am I missing something here...

Yup..that's also what Doug B suggested. The problem I have is that these tiles are so bloody heavy and I don't have the strength in my hands, thumbs or back to manhandle them into position by myself. So the missus was going to help me but I just can't see how the two of us can fit into the space, lean forward etc and drop the tile into place.

 

[TrimTheKing]

I think I'm missing something then as I don't see how that product helps with any of that! All that does is help to level them but you still need to physically manhandle them into position.

Can you not just get a box truck to wheel them as close to final position as possible then lower/flop them down onto the adhesive then wiggle into position?

I got one of these which I use to move heavy stuff around the workshop/garden and it's surprisingly strong for the price.

 

[AndyP]

You've got the tiles and adhesive and I guess grout. Is it time to get a man in? Tiler's daily rate against cost of those support gadgets?

 

[RogerS]

I think I'm missing something then as I don't see how that product helps with any of that! All that does is help to level them but you still need to physically manhandle them into position.

Can you not just get a box truck to wheel them as close to final position as possible then lower/flop them down onto the adhesive then wiggle into position?

I got one of these which I use to move heavy stuff around the workshop/garden and it's surprisingly strong for the price.

You can stand on the adjacent tiles straight away !

Got a handtruck already, thx. It's not that so much as dropping them into position. All that adhesive splashing out all over the place. Not enough adhesive...oh bugger..now I've got to try and lift the sod. Too much adhesive....ditto.

 

[RogerS]

You've got the tiles and adhesive and I guess grout. Is it time to get a man in? Tiler's daily rate against cost of those support gadgets?

I have some very old adhesive. Debatable if I should really be using it. Grouts not that expensive TBH.

But, most importantly, find a (decent) tiler....tricky.

 

[Robert]

Pedestal supports for paving is something I've never heard of before.

Just watched a youtube video and that showed paving slabs that were thick and about 400 square being installed.

Your tile 800 x 400 and 20mm thick being supported just on the corners (if i understand it correctly) sounds like a recipe for disaster. jump on a tile middle and go straight through?

Do they make those plastic alignment things for big tiles that clamp the corners for 20mm thick? Never used them but seen them in videos. You snap the peg off before grouting. Got to make conventional tile laying easier.

 

[RogerS]

Pedestal supports for paving is something I've never heard of before.

Just watched a youtube video and that showed paving slabs that were thick and about 400 square being installed.

Your tile 800 x 400 and 20mm thick being supported just on the corners (if i understand it correctly) sounds like a recipe for disaster. jump on a tile middle and go straight through?

I spoke to Mandarin Stone who assure me that the porcelain tiles are strong enough. Having said that, if I do go for the Star.T system then I will be putting in dabs all over each tile area.

Do they make those plastic alignment things for big tiles that clamp the corners for 20mm thick? Never used them but seen them in videos. You snap the peg off before grouting. Got to make conventional tile laying easier.

Yes, they do. Quite a lot of systems out there now. I've used them. They're OK-ish.

 

[MJ80]

Have you got a tile lifter or some good sucker pads. The lifter was a real help laying the flags at mine.
Are you going to back butter the tiles rather than dabs? It's a much better method. I'd also chuck the old adhesive if it's really out of date.

 

[RogerS]

Have you got a tile lifter or some good sucker pads. The lifter was a real help laying the flags at mine.
Are you going to back butter the tiles rather than dabs? It's a much better method. I'd also chuck the old adhesive if it's really out of date.

No need to back butter, Michael, or involve any adhesive if I go down the Star.T route. I'm getting more enamoured with the idea TBH.

 

[Doug]

Having said that, if I do go for the Star.T system then I will be putting in dabs all over each tile area.

You don’t want to do that, porcelain is notorious for staining, just putting dabs of adhesive on could lead to discolouration in those areas

 

[RogerS]

Having said that, if I do go for the Star.T system then I will be putting in dabs all over each tile area.

You don’t want to do that, porcelain is notorious for staining, just putting dabs of adhesive on could lead to discolouration in those areas

But the dabs will be underneath the tiles or are you saying that stains will telegraph through from underneath ?

 

[StevieB]

That plastic adjusting key looks to be a weak point in the system - I would want a few spares of those, especially if you are adjusting with the weight of a tile or two on top...... I also suspect your sub-base would need to be perfectly flat - you are adjusting 4 corners on each tile - getting each to line up with the surrounding 8 tiles is going to be a major pain and minor discrepancies will amplify over distance. I would be interested to see how you get on if you do go down this route.

 

[Rod]

I’ve always used a slab lifter when placing slabs.
My usual method is to level a layer of fine sand and cement (dry) then carefully placing the slabs on top leaving a gap between. The gap is then filled by brushing in the dry mix similar to block paving techniques. Over time the mix will harden but can be accelerated by gently misting with water.

Rod

 

[MJ80]

Those star connectors look really good

 

[RogerS]

One thought occurred to me and that is how coplanar the underside of the tiles are. Reason for saying this is that large format porcelain tiles have a tolerance on the top surface (ie they can be dished slightly along the length) which usually means that you need to stagger the tiles 1/3-2/3 rather than 50:50. If the undersides are also dished then that means rocking possibilities...not good.

So I'm going to get 30-35 of these pedestals to see how they go before committing.

 

[RogerS]

OK...pilot trial completed. OK...only three tiles but 100% success.

Positioning the discs is a doddle. Just need a bit of lateral thinking and some spare Correx and make up a template.

(Actual placing irrelevant for the purposes of a trial)
Lift tile into place using the Rubi Rough Tile suction pad....stonkingly brilliant bit of kit....THANK YOU, Jonathan for the suggestion.

And five minutes later

I only needed to adjust the height of one of them which says a lot about the calibre of work my builder does. Just 1mm. Must have word with him next time I see him. Tsk tsk.

Downsides ?
They are slippy and so I will be putting some dabs of adhesive underneath when I come to do the job for real.

Grouting..well, the gap is much wider than I was led to believe at 5mm. SWMBO isn't too keen on zero grout. So since the tiles (a) don't rock (b) I can use an item from another range to block the gap at the bottom

then I reckon grouting is possible.

 

[TrimTheKing]

Right, I'm not being funny here Rog but I still cannot see what benefit these give at all.

Your original concerns were hand/finger strength and maneuvering them into place, well that handle is going to take some gripping to shift a tile, I would hazard more than picking them up with two hands by the edges.

I can 100% see those tiles breaking in half the second you drop anything remotely of a weight on them being hollow underneath, and if you do put dabs then that strikes me you're doing the same job twice.

Come on, admit it, you just want to use a new technique and you're looking for a way to justify it to yourself/us... :eusa-whistle:

Now I don't have an issue with that at all, but be honest about it. This is a safe place!

:lol:

 

[AndyP]

Laying them in that overlapping pattern has the advantage of using 6 sports for each tile, if you added an extra one against the wall, thus reducing the likelihood of the tiles breaking.

Good luck with the rest of the terrace.

 

[RogerS]

Right, I'm not being funny here Rog but I still cannot see what benefit these give at all.

Your original concerns were hand/finger strength and maneuvering them into place, well that handle is going to take some gripping to shift a tile, I would hazard more than picking them up with two hands by the edges.

It's a completely different type of grip, Mark. The grip used for the handle is the same grip that wee babies have from birth. Phenomenally strong and easy to use. I lift (or was lifting) heavier weights than this in the gym !

I can 100% see those tiles breaking in half the second you drop anything remotely of a weight on them being hollow underneath,

A valid point but (a) no kids (b) no-one we know who might visit has kids (c) I just need to be careful with that sledgehammer As it turns out, I have spare tiles left over. Doddle to replace one. Try that with one cemented all over.

and if you do put dabs then that strikes me you're doing the same job twice....

Not at all..applying shovelfuls of adhesive, trowelling them down, notching the adhesive, struggle with tile, drop it into place. Damn, too much adhesive...struggle to get fingers underneath, adhesive everywhere, watch out, you can't stand on that tile, it's not set....too late. Oh hell, here comes the rain.

As opposed to lay down nice clean plastic support. A little dab here. A little dab there. Doesn't matter if it's too high, because as a dab it will just squish to the right height. Oh did I just stand on that tile ? Doesn't matter. Look at my hands. Aren't they clean !

Admittedly it is more expensive than buying the adhesive. But for my peace of mind and sanity....

 

[TrimTheKing]

Damn you, an answer for everything! [emoji6]

 

[woodstalker]

I'm planning on using the pedestal system on our roof terrace to carry the inside floor covering across the threshold to the roof decking. Interesting to see how you get on.

 

[RogerS]

I'm planning on using the pedestal system on our roof terrace to carry the inside floor covering across the threshold to the roof decking. Interesting to see how you get on.

Are you going to use Eterno's or another make ? Seem to recall reading that on balconies you need a special type.

 

[woodstalker]

I'm planning on using the pedestal system on our roof terrace to carry the inside floor covering across the threshold to the roof decking. Interesting to see how you get on.

Are you going to use Eterno's or another make ? Seem to recall reading that on balconies you need a special type.

Hi Rog,

I have looked at a few but to be honest we are at the design stage so don't have it all properly specc'd yet. Something like this is what we have in mind:

https://surface360.co.uk/products/paving-tile-support-systems

the raised deck at the back is going to be infilled underneath to create another lower ground floor room and the deck itself replaced with a flat roof. We are planning on a tile system so the structural engineer will take it into account when calculating the roof structure this is going to sit on.

 

[RogerS]

I'm planning on using the pedestal system on our roof terrace to carry the inside floor covering across the threshold to the roof decking. Interesting to see how you get on.

Are you going to use Eterno's or another make ? Seem to recall reading that on balconies you need a special type.

Hi Rog,

I have looked at a few but to be honest we are at the design stage so don't have it all properly specc'd yet. Something like this is what we have in mind:

https://surface360.co.uk/products/paving-tile-support-systems

the raised deck at the back is going to be infilled underneath to create another lower ground floor room and the deck itself replaced with a flat roof. We are planning on a tile system so the structural engineer will take it into account when calculating the roof structure this is going to sit on.

Are you going to do this yourself ? Do you realise that the system that the company in the link you've provided is made by Eterna...an Italian company..the same company that I'm using ....bit of a cheek TBH them renaming it as if it is there own! You can buy it from Tilefixdirect and other places. https://www.tilefixdirect.com/category/pedestals

 

[woodstalker]

Hi Roger,

No not doing it myself; that link was just indicative of what we would like to do. My days of building stuff like you’d are way behind me. It’s a bit like pretty much every budget woodworking machine for sale. All made in same factory with the branding label added at the end...

 

[RogerS]

Hi Roger,

No not doing it myself; that link was just indicative of what we would like to do. My days of building stuff like you’d are way behind me. It’s a bit like pretty much every budget woodworking machine for sale. All made in same factory with the branding label added at the end...

I take your point but not in this case. The product your site 'assumed' title to is actually designed and made by the Italian company Eterno.

It's currently a toss-up between doing the orangerie and the tiles on the terrace. We've got two very good days coming. I'm hoping to have the orangerie guttering finished by close of play tomorrow and that gives me Thursday to lay the terrace 5.6m x 3.2m.

 

[RogerS]

Just realised that I never came back with the final results.

Started laying the slabs. The advantage of brick bond is that each slab has three supports under each long edge. Although the tile suppliers tell me that they don’t need support, I still decided to put some dabs of tile adhesive down first.

The whole process is remarkably quick and easy. After about 45 minutes I’d got this far.


And after a couple of hours, this



It was helped a lot by the fact that my builder had done a superb job of laying the concrete slab nigh on perfectly flat with a slight slope for drainage.

The manufacturers sell a key to adjust the black pads. You don’t need it as I found it very easy to lay the tile and then nudge the pad round to raise it a smidgeon when needed. Round the perimeter I used tiling wedges. So just the cuts left to do the next day.

The next day dawned and I found that a few tiles rocked and sounded a bit hollow when tapped. I came to the conclusion that one can’t get the pads exactly right. You can adjust them for one tile but it won’t be quite right for the adjoining tile. We’re only talking 1mm or less but enough to break the bond with the dabs as one walked about laying the rest of the tiles.

The fix was sublimely easy as using that brilliant rough tile sucker from Rubi, you simply lift the tile up, put down a more liberal amount of adhesive, drop the tile back in place, step on it to bed it in nicely and job done. Cuts done and wait to dry before grouting.


Now, enquiries of the pad suppliers say that you don’t need to grout with these pads. Well, that’s being economical with the truth. The thing is that as it stands the grout simply falls out the bottom of the gap between the tiles since there is nothing underneath to stop it.

But a bit of lateral thinking on my part and I found this product from another company.


It’s a squidgy foam roll that you push down into the gap between tiles using the gizmo in the photo. Actually they do two…this one which costs about £6 and a more deluxe version at £99 or so. Looking at the one in the photo, you’d think ‘Ah, simple job..just push the foam in the groove and run that wee roller along to push the rest in.’. And you’d be wrong. The design is rubbish. The width of the wheel is OK for thinner foam but not for the 10mm that I was using. So it ends up slicing into the foam which doesn’t help. Wetting the gaps helped but it was still much more time consuming that it should have been …if only they’d designed the tool better.

And onto grouting. Now all the books say to use a grouting float. Yup..works well for small smooth tiles. Not large rough tiles like these. After a first attempt on a couple of tiles, I found that I was losing a huge amount of grout in the pores of the tiles and was looking at having to buy a whole load more grout. Simple solution…just use a spatula and press the grout into the grooves. Quicker and more economical.

So there we have it. The grout has hardened. The tiles are (and sound) rock solid. Zero movement.

Definitely recommend these pads.

I did make one mistake though. I thought it would be a good idea to put a protecting sealing coating on these tiles especially the grout. I’ve used DRAI before from an Italian company and it certainly does what it says on the tin. Only…these are porcelain tiles. They don’t need sealing. I also was running out of DRAI and so I only managed to do four rows and splash the remaining DRAI on the grout lines on the other four rows. As the DRAI dried and the setting sun came out, to my horror I saw a really blotchy finish on the tiles especially around the tiles to either side of the grout lines. It looked horrible. Contacting the manufacturer, all they could suggest was mechanical removal. One day, I’ll get the Jif out and see what I can do. It does work though. Look at this picture. Surface tension beats gravity. The four rows with DRAI have yet to drain but the tiles without the water simply ran off and are perfectly dry.

 

[Doug]

Are the tiles dry or has the residue water been absorbed by the tiles? Porcelain can be porous that’s why they sell porcelain tile sealer, personally I’d have sealed the lot if only (but not exclusively) because once the birds have sh1t on it it will be a lot easier to clean.

Also I can’t see the grout staying put long term on what is a flexible base :|

 

[RogerS]

Are the tiles dry or has the residue water been absorbed by the tiles? Porcelain can be porous that’s why they sell porcelain tile sealer, personally I’d have sealed the lot if only (but not exclusively) because once the birds have sh1t on it it will be a lot easier to clean.

Also I can’t see the grout staying put long term on what is a flexible base :|

Tiles are bone dry (until it rains!). These particular porcelain tiles do not require sealing. It's not a flexible base. The pads are solid and not compressible. Neither are the dabs. Time will tell.

 

[Doug]

I ment the foam onto which the grout sits when I said flexible base.

As to sealing as I said it’s a personal thing.

 

[AndyP]

Very neaf Roger. You can finish tiling the room now.

 

[RogerS]

I ment the foam onto which the grout sits when I said flexible base.

As to sealing as I said it’s a personal thing.

I see where you're coming from. It's a fair point...as I said, time will tell !

 

[woodstalker]

Roger, do you have an update on how the tiling is now after its been down for two winters? We are finally onto the roof terrace so will be getting these tile supports but won't be grouting/pointing them.

We are also going with porcelain tiles. Any staining/ movement? Has the grout survived?

 

[RogerS]

Roger, do you have an update on how the tiling is now after its been down for two winters? We are finally onto the roof terrace so will be getting these tile supports but won't be grouting/pointing them.

We are also going with porcelain tiles. Any staining/ movement? Has the grout survived?

Absolutely brilliant. No movement. Grout has stayed put. Staining is down to the tiles and nothing to do with the Eterno. Moss and mould but Wet'n'Forget soon sorts that out. Very pleased with them.

We also used porcelain tiles from Mandarin Stone. If you change your mind and go for grouting it is imperative that you totally clean off the excess grout and residue from the tiles once the grout has almost cured as the residue on the face of the tile can act as an 'attachment point' for mould.

 

[woodstalker]

Thanks Roger, we hadn’t planned to grout. The water should drain through the gaps onto the flat roof and away. The terrace in front of the extension will be tiled in the traditional way and pointed. We are going with Primaporcelain for the tiles with 11mm inside the house and 20mm on the terraces.

 

[RogerS]

Thanks Roger, we hadn’t planned to grout. The water should drain through the gaps onto the flat roof and away. The terrace in front of the extension will be tiled in the traditional way and pointed. We are going with Primaporcelain for the tiles with 11mm inside the house and 20mm on the terraces.

You do need to dot and dab underneath the tiles. Not sure if you picked up on that from my thread.

 

[woodstalker]

Thanks Roger, we hadn’t planned to grout. The water should drain through the gaps onto the flat roof and away. The terrace in front of the extension will be tiled in the traditional way and pointed. We are going with Primaporcelain for the tiles with 11mm inside the house and 20mm on the terraces.

You do need to dot and dab underneath the tiles. Not sure if you picked up on that from my thread.

Hi Roger i did see but not sure that’s a good idea on the flat roof. If it does become an issue I can always look at it later.

 

[RogerS]

Fairy snuff.

How large are your tiles ? If very big, highly recommend the rough tile sucker from Rubi. Mind you if you're laying them dry then I guess not that important.