Fancy handplanes

[TrimTheKing]

With all this talk of handplanes lately it reminded me about when Waka bought some S&S planes a good few years back so I had to go and have a look if S&S were still going http://sauerandsteiner.blogspot.com/

That also got me to thinking about where Waka went and why he dropped off UKW, do you know Rob (Woodbloke)? I know you were mates with him, I don't remember clearly but he seemed to just drift away from UKW, is he okay?

I remember his tool cabinet which got a lot of derision among the celebration, due to it being deemed 'too fancy' for a workshop. I don't subscribe to that, woodwork is whatever you want it to be and while I completely appreciate the views of those who say "it's a workshop 'thing' and I'd rather spend time making things than making things for the workshop", I'd also argue the other side that if someone wants to make an heirloom grade cabinet in their workshop t house their planes, or build a workbench that is better quality than most home furnishings then bloody well go for it!

 

[novocaine]

disgusting and I'd consider to be of little use or merit, why would you bother going to all that trouble for a hand plane, it's a tool not an ornament, definitely form of function.


there, that's got all that crap out the way, no one else needs to moan about it and I can say what I really thinking.

yummy, not a fan of the dyed wood but still yummy.

 

[TrimTheKing]

They're stunning things that's for sure. I don't care that they're expensive, I'm never going to buy one, but there are people who can, will and do, so more power to his elbow.

I remember Waka saying they took ridiculously good shavings which is what a plane should do. Will it be 100 times better at its job than a £40 plane, of course not, but if you've got the cash then do what you want with it.

 

[Trevanion]

Karl Holtey just came back out of retirement and is another worth looking at, both have excellent Instagram accounts.

 

[Mike G]

See the crinkly shavings stuck in the throat? That means that particular plane isn't working properly. No matter how attractive it looks (infill planes really don't do it for me), unless it actually works then it's not a lot of use to woodworkers. If it works, then fine......I'm all for skilled people earning good money for their efforts.

 

[TrimTheKing]

I didn't realise Karl had even retired! :shock:

Yep I love his stuff, again way out of my price range but I love looking at them.

 

[TrimTheKing]

See the crinkly shavings stuck in the throat? That means that particular plane isn't working properly. No matter how attractive it looks (infill planes really don't do it for me), unless it actually works then it's not a lot of use to woodworkers. If it works, then fine......I'm all for skilled people earning good money for their efforts.

Oh totally agree with that Mike, expensive and not fit for purpose is worse than cheap and useless. Which plane are you talking about though, the one a few pics down? Surely that will happen when a plane is working properly as shavings don't all get magically ejected out of the top of the plane...?

 

[novocaine]

They're stunning things that's for sure. I don't care that they're expensive, I'm never going to buy one, but there are people who can, will and do, so more power to his elbow.

I remember Waka saying they took ridiculously good shavings which is what a plane should do. Will it be 100 times better at its job than a £40 plane, of course not, but if you've got the cash then do what you want with it.

in completely agreement Mark. if you have worked hard and now have the money, crack on. something like this isn't about it being the very best at what it does (which it very well might be), it's about having something that is a pleasure to use and makes you smile everytime you use it.
Mike, I reckon that crinkle shaving is during testing of the mouth as the next set of pictures is showing him adjusting the throat and leading edge of the wedge, which should eject the shaving to the side.

 

[Mike G]

......Which plane are you talking about though, the one a few pics down?......

The only image on that page with shavings, that I could see, which has them jammed tightly into the throat. Crinkly shavings mean they are breaking and folding, rather than flowing out.....and they should be flowing out of the side. With a plane worth about the same as a private jet, one would be loathe to take a file to it to sort out the problem!!

 

[novocaine]

having said that, I can find no pictures of the plane in use showing the ramped wedge which would push the shaving out.

 

[Mike G]

How do you hit that wedge with a hammer to seat it?

 

[TrimTheKing]

......Which plane are you talking about though, the one a few pics down?......

The only image on that page with shavings, that I could see, which has them jammed tightly into the throat. Crinkly shavings mean they are breaking and folding, rather than flowing out.....and they should be flowing out of the side. With a plane worth about the same as a private jet, one would be loathe to take a file to it to sort out the problem!!

I thought you meant this one...

Yeah he does say he's testing it in theat pic but yes I agree with you.

 

[novocaine]

How do you hit that wedge with a hammer to seat it?

carefully with a custom made purple headed.............. never mind.

 

[TrimTheKing]

How do you hit that wedge with a hammer to seat it?

Maybe he makes a specially shaped hammer to with it it, as an add on... :lol:

 

[novocaine]

How do you hit that wedge with a hammer to seat it?

Maybe he makes a specially shaped hammer to with it it, as an add on... :lol:

ah, the apple approach to marketing. create a problem, sell a solution.

 

[Mike G]

....ah, the Rob Cosman approach to marketing. create a problem, sell a solution.

Fixed that for you. :lol:

 

[novocaine]

....ah, the Rob Cosman approach to marketing. create a problem, sell a solution.

Fixed that for you. :lol:

you mean I don't need a dedicated plane adjustment driver?
what about an angle training block? (no idea how you train an angle but it takes a block)
or how about a "worlds best spritz bottle"? surely that is a must have at 20 dollars and in no way is it a repurposed dettol spray bottle.
ok, ok, I get it, we don't need those things, I'll stop. I need to anyway, I've just noticed the grip tape for vice handles and I need to get my order in quick before he sells out.

 

[Woodbloke]

With all this talk of handplanes lately it reminded me about when Waka bought some S&S planes a good few years back so I had to go and have a look if S&S were still going http://sauerandsteiner.blogspot.com/

That also got me to thinking about where Waka went and why he dropped off UKW, do you know Rob (Woodbloke)? I know you were mates with him, I don't remember clearly but he seemed to just drift away from UKW, is he okay?

I remember his tool cabinet which got a lot of derision among the celebration, due to it being deemed 'too fancy' for a workshop. I don't subscribe to that, woodwork is whatever you want it to be and while I completely appreciate the views of those who say "it's a workshop 'thing' and I'd rather spend time making things than making things for the workshop", I'd also argue the other side that if someone wants to make an heirloom grade cabinet in their workshop t house their planes, or build a workbench that is better quality than most home furnishings then bloody well go for it!

Dunno what ever happened to Waka but he was (and hopefully still is) a good lad. Philly of this parish (one of the Three Musketeers of early UKW) would probably have more up to date info...I'll PM the boy Philly and find out what the current state of play happens to be.

I went to a couple of Waka's 'bashes' (remember them?) in Weymouth to see the aforementioned Tool Cabinet (very nice too, lots of Birds Eye Maple) and also cast the Mk1 eyeball over a set of three S&S planes he had just purchased...and again, very nice they looked too. Emphasis on the 'looked' 'cos they didn't work very well!

On the very expensive smoother, the front infill bun had warped :shock: so that got kicked into the long grass!

I tested the middle sized panel plane, again, hugely expensive against Waka's LV BU jack plane, a measly £200 or so at the time. I honed both the blades on his system (forget what :eusa-think: ) and set up both planes to take shavings in something loafing around on Waka's bench (again, dunno what it was)

The result was identical. There was no difference 'twixt a vastly expensive, hand made jobbie and a bog standard offering straight out of the Veritas factory in Canada.

From that incident, my view is and has remained, that if you want to spend a shed load of wonga on fancy planes (Holtey's included and I've used a couple of those as well) they don't work any better than a well set up LN, Cliffie or Veritas.

If you choose to spend your hard earned on an heirloom investment for your grandchildren (as Waka did) more power to your elbow, but as user's, you're better off IMO spending the dosh on wood.

Edit: I used an S&S panel plane at one of the show's to plane up a nice, even, smooth bit of maple...nothing gnarly in it! As expected, it took a nice, even shaving...but as I pointed out to the bloke on the stand who made it, you could do exactly the same thing with a well set up, nice sharp Record No.5 He weren't impressed :lol: - Rob

 

[AndyP]

Expensive hand planes, expensive cars, expensive watches, expensive food, whatever floats your boat and makes you feel good is ok with me.

 

[Philly]

I spoke with Waka a few weeks ago on the phone, he's going strong and in good spirits.
My own thoughts on high end planes......for the majority of work a sharp iron makes the most difference regardless of which plane you have. But on extremely gnarly stuff that is almost unplanable, this is where infills like Konrads come into their own - the extremely tight mouth and sheer density of all that metal really shines through.
Fair play to Konrad (S+S) - he has continued to refine and evolve the look of his planes and they have moved on from the Norris repros he started with.
Cheers
Philly

 

[Woodbloke]

But on extremely gnarly stuff that is almost unplanable, this is where infills like Konrads come into their own - the extremely tight mouth and sheer density of all that metal really shines through.
Cheers
Philly

I'm not even sure about that Philly. Does anyone remember the notorious 'Wood from Hell' that did the rounds on a certain forum :eusa-whistle: a few years ago? It's virtually unplanable and I've tried dozens of times. Matt Platt at Workshop Heaven accepted the challenge and I sent him a bit, shown in the pic, but it was twice as thick!



He used a Clifie 4.5 with a York frog (I think) and a steep back bevel on the blade to eventually tame it, but it took him about 8mm of the thickness to do it.

I also took a lump down to a Yandles Show one year and gave it to the LN rep (Denib) doing the demonstrations. On the bench in front of him he had all the LN planes but chose a BU plane with a super high effective pitch to plane it. He mentioned that it wasn't quite the most difficult wood he'd ever been given, but it was 'up there' with the best of them, best in this case being appalling - Rob

 

[AJB Temple]

I'm not clear why anyone would expect a very expensive hand made plane to work any better than a well manufactured item like say a Veritas. Surly it's mainly about the sharpness (and stay sharp ability) of the iron, coupled with a correctly dimensioned mouth?

The hand made planes do look beautiful though. Stunning workmanship and aesthetics.

 

[Trevanion]

I personally have no issues with people buying expensive tools if they want to, provided they know exactly what they're looking at and it's what they actually want. I don't think I'd ever buy a Holtey, S+S, Lazurus, Sparks, or another boutique plane maker's stuff but I can really appreciate the craftsmanship and attention to detail that goes into them, some people may use them but I imagine a high proportion are sold to collectors who keep them in display cases.

When I posted elsewhere we quite often had inexperienced people who seemed to think they needed to buy the absolute most expensive tool to do the job they wanted, and would get very aggressively defensive if someone suggested that a cheaper alternative may be a better choice, god help you if you suggested that they didn't actually need the tool to do the job :lol:

One that stands out was the "I spent £4000 on woodworking machinery, and I need to spend £4000 more before I can actually make anything" thread, I think he actually had more stuff than me :shock:

 

[TrimTheKing]

I personally have no issues with people buying expensive tools if they want to, provided they know exactly what they're looking at and it's what they actually want. I don't think I'd ever buy a Holtey, S+S, Lazurus, Sparks, or another boutique plane maker's stuff but I can really appreciate the craftsmanship and attention to detail that goes into them, some people may use them but I imagine a high proportion are sold to collectors who keep them in display cases.

When I posted elsewhere we quite often had inexperienced people who seemed to think they needed to buy the absolute most expensive tool to do the job they wanted, and would get very aggressively defensive if someone suggested that a cheaper alternative may be a better choice, god help you if you suggested that they didn't actually need the tool to do the job :lol:

One that stands out was the "I spent £4000 on woodworking machinery, and I need to spend £4000 more before I can actually make anything" thread, I think he actually had more stuff than me :shock:

Yep totally agree with all of that. There are those who get angry/upset/ridicule people for buying them though (thankfully nobody here) which is just as bad IMO. Either way, like you I am unlikely to ever buy one, but I do like looking at them and appreciate the work that's gone into them. More than that I appreciate and applaud the fact that the makers can get people to part with the sums they do for them. :eusa-clap:

 

[Chris101]

Being a noob I have no official opinion, ( ) but I've been to 2 little wood shows and I have met Oliver Sparks and his lovely wife and saw his planes first hand twice and they are just objects of beauty. You want to pick them up and hold them and feel the weight. They are the equivalent of steam trains and all that engineering and movement and steam. The perfect fusion of utility and good design like Victorian brickwork.

I met Phil once at the last Essex showand bought a bit of boxwood. He stiffed me. Kidding! His planes were just as beautiful and useful.
Saur and Steiner blog I occasionally look in on just to look.
I don't need one and never will, I certainly won't ever own a plane made by any of the above, but I think the world is a better place because they exist. They are superlative. In a world that is full of grey and black and silver family suvs, I'm glad that someone out there is driving a red Karmen Ghia just because. Not the best beauty/performance analogy to be fair, but you know what I mean. It's good to have choice even if I can't afford it personally. The rich tapestry of life.

 

[TrimTheKing]

:text-+1:

Absolutely this Chris! :eusa-clap:

 

[Woodbloke]

I personally have no issues with people buying expensive tools if they want to, provided they know exactly what they're looking at and it's what they actually want. I don't think I'd ever buy a Holtey, S+S, Lazurus, Sparks, or another boutique plane maker's stuff but I can really appreciate the craftsmanship and attention to detail that goes into them, some people may use them but I imagine a high proportion are sold to collectors who keep them in display cases.

When I posted elsewhere we quite often had inexperienced people who seemed to think they needed to buy the absolute most expensive tool to do the job they wanted, and would get very aggressively defensive if someone suggested that a cheaper alternative may be a better choice, god help you if you suggested that they didn't actually need the tool to do the job :lol:

:text-+1: ...which is what I was attempting to say. If for example, an S&S is bought as a 'user', much more economic and equally viable planes are available, but I suspect as others have mentioned, a lot of well heeled folk buy them for alternative reasons and have no intention of taking any shavings at the bench - Rob

 

[Lons]

+2 Chris :eusa-clap:
I own a black SUV btw :lol: In my defence the one I wanted was a stunning metalic red but there wasn't one available in the spec and at the right price.

 

[AndyP]

:text-+1:

Absolutely this Chris! :eusa-clap:

Yeah, what I was thinking and far better put.

 

[novocaine]

Screw the plane i want that car.

I have always had a soft spot for a ghia. Horrible to drive but oh hell yes.

That one looks a lot like an old friends dads one that he sold on. Her boyfriend drove it in to a wall because he was a dick. She had yhe front indicator on her desk in work as a pen pot. Dad rebuilt it.

 

[Woodbloke]

Screw the plane i want that car.

I have always had a soft spot for a ghia. Horrible to drive but oh hell yes.

Hideous looking thing; Italian Lancia 'Fulvia' for me. Proper rust bucket :lol: - Rob

 

[Woodster]

If that plane works ok and you like the look of it, fine. Personally I think it’s hideous! :lol:

 

[TrimTheKing]

If that plane works ok and you like the look of it, fine. Personally I think it’s hideous! :lol:

And I celebrate everyone's right to a differing opinion. That's what makes life so varied and exciting. bscene-drinkingcheers:

 

[Chris101]

+2 Chris :eusa-clap:
I own a black SUV btw :lol: In my defence the one I wanted was a stunning metalic red but there wasn't one available in the spec and at the right price.

Same here Bob. Black kuga. Bore on! My mrs wanted the mustang lol. But what if we want to go sporting I said! Or utilitating! Ah. I see your point she said.
My main mode of tra port is a Renault trafic. *SIGHS

 

[Rod]

I’ll put my hand up and admit to having a Holtey small smoother. (At the time £2800).
I went after a kit but finished up with a fully made up one at a ridiculously reduced price.
I’m not a collector and the plane has suffered damage - knocked off the workbench, missed the rubber matting and hit concrete!!
A careful bit of linishing will probably repair it but my Proxxon belt sander blew up.
It works well but the iron is incredibly hard and needs careful sharpening on diamonds or “scary sharp”.

Rod

 

[TrimTheKing]

I’ll put my hand up and admit to having a Holtey small smoother. (At the time £2800).
I went after a kit but finished up with a fully made up one at a ridiculously reduced price.
I’m not a collector and the plane has suffered damage - knocked off the workbench, missed the rubber matting and hit concrete!!
A careful bit of linishing will probably repair it but my Proxxon belt sander blew up.
It works well but the iron is incredibly hard and needs careful sharpening on diamonds or “scary sharp”.

Rod

Ouch that must have been a sweary moment when you dropped it Rod!! :eusa-doh:

 

[Rod]

Yes and tears to my eyes!

Rod

 

[Mike G]

.....what if we want to go sporting I said! Or utilitating!.....

:eusa-clap: :eusa-clap: :lol: There's only one Chris 101!!

 

[kirkpoore1]

I have a Veritas low angle jack that I bought the last time I was in Toronto. Cost twice as much as the most expensive plane I'd ever bought before (though that one was way back about 1990), but I decided to indulge myself. When you set it on a piece of wood and go, it just feels really solid. It's clearly a step up from my late '80's Record #7, which is the next best plane I have. I bet it's about 99% of what a plane can be. Maybe some of these high end planes are at the 99.9% level, but the times when you would see the difference are probably pretty rare.

Oh, and I use the jack to take down rough surfaces, and finish with my #4. The #4 does have a Hock iron in it though, and that upgrade was well worth it.

Kirk

 

[Custard]

The notion that crinkled shavings are a sign of a badly set plane needs some qualification.

Most times I'd agree, but on contrary grain which is tearing out then you may choose to set the cap iron extremely close. The shavings will begin to concertina, but the tear out will stop. I do this so often that I now keep one bench plane permanently set up in this configuration.