festool sword saw - any good ?

[big soft moose]

Hi Gents

just looking for some words of wisdom here - as mentioned on another thread the storms of '14 have left me (or more accurately my team) with a plank or two (or 40) of green oak in 3" or 4" section.

To use this we need to convert it - its too thick for the makita tracksaw, too heavy to put through the bandsaw, and very hard going with the jig saw. (ripping it free hand with a chainsaw is an option for one or two bits but not for that volume , while getting our contractor back with his woodmizer while possible is likely to be expensive an dinconvenient )

So as I twas idly browsing the axminmster catalogue , i was quite excited to see the festool sword... the bastard son of a tracksaw and a chainsaw. THis looks like the answer but i was wondrering what first hand experience says ?

 

[Rob]

I had Festool demo it to me at the D&M tool show last year and they let me loose on it for a few minutes. I'd say it's squarely pitched at roofers and fencers and maybe landscape gardeners using sleeper stock for borders etc.

You wouldn't want to do long rip cuts with it or you'd be there a very very long time. For small and possibly compound angle cross cuts in 4x4 fencing or cut rooves etc it could prove useful.

For ripping sawn stock have you considered an Alaskan mill allied to your chainsaw?

 

[wallace]

Personally I would make an infeed and outfeed table for the bandsaw and get a decent blade

 

[Mike G]

You can't even take a 6 foot piece of 5" x 5" oak to a normal workshop bandsaw. They're just too big and heavy.

I have no experience of the tool you're looking at, Pete, but I saw it a while back and thought it looked a great idea. Being Festool it will cost the earth, but the reviews suggest that it would do the job you are after. The only thing I would say is that you might spend quite a long time setting the track up level. If it twists, your cut won't be vertical.

http://www.axminster.co.uk/festool-ssu-220-eb-sword-saw/

 

[9fingers]

I guess it depend on your budget and how much you will use it.

I'm sure it will be a well thought out tool in terms of the detail, tilting base etc. But at the end of the day it is a 1600watt chainsaw and you could possibly make a simple jig for a standard saw to run on a saw board type track either for a small CS you might already have or one of the plethora of 350/400mm cheap electric chainsaws on the market

If it is for your staff to use, then there maybe less of a H&S issue with a 100% commercial product.

Bob

 

[big soft moose]

If it is for your staff to use, then there maybe less of a H&S issue with a 100% commercial product.

Bob

Yep - that to the nth degree - if it was for personal use i wouldnt even think about it , but for team use our organisational elf n safety will preclude any job made bodges and jigs

as to the alaskan mill - we could, but that will mean a petrol saw and working outside , which isnt always desirable - being electric the sword could do it inside.

I think we'll get one and see how it goes - chances are wheel only be ripping one or two bits at a time so time shouldn't an issues

 

[big soft moose]

well we bought one last thursday - when we've played with it i'll share thre wisdom - what i'll say for nmow is that its very irritating that manufacturers don't standardize track fittings - we've alrready got two rails for a bosch plunge saw, but had to buy two more in festool flavour for the sword :eusa-violin:

 

[Wizard9999]

well we bought one last thursday - when we've played with it i'll share thre wisdom - what i'll say for nmow is that its very irritating that manufacturers don't standardize track fittings - we've alrready got two rails for a bosch plunge saw, but had to buy two more in festool flavour for the sword :eusa-violin:

With respect, I think you'll find that's the whole point :lol:

Terry.

 

[Rod]

Like lots of other things, though I think phone charger sockets are being standardised?

Rod

 

[Rob]

so lets just run that decision by the imaginary board meeting (pressured to deliver shareholder value).

Engineering Director (Bob): "Chaps(esses) we've had a hell-uv-a lot of feedback through our customer programme asking us to produce the same track design as "big Japanese geezer down the road Inc". It seems to make a lot of sense to the design and engineering side of the house because we'll have a bigger pool of skills to hire from, tooling will be cheaper as it's more widely available and of course most importantly......customers will be really happy!"

Managing Director (Dick): "What was Last quarters revenue from track sales Bob....just under $4M. So, let me get this straight, you want to cannibalise an annualised revenue stream of circa $16M so your customers SMILE MORE!!! Bob....do I look like a c x x t to you?? Answer me Bob!! Bob....do you like working here?"

Cut scene to Bob entering the job centre!!

 

[TrimTheKing]

So, let me get this straight, you want to cannibalise an annualised revenue stream of circa $16M so your customers SMILE MORE!!! Bob....do I look like a c x x t to you?? Answer me Bob!! Bob....do you like working here?"

Cut scene to Bob entering the job centre!!

Hahahaha

Mark

 

[big soft moose]

so lets just run that decision by the imaginary board meeting (pressured to deliver shareholder value).

Engineering Director (Bob): "Chaps(esses) we've had a hell-uv-a lot of feedback through our customer programme asking us to produce the same track design as "big Japanese geezer down the road Inc". It seems to make a lot of sense to the design and engineering side of the house because we'll have a bigger pool of skills to hire from, tooling will be cheaper as it's more widely available and of course most importantly......customers will be really happy!"

Managing Director (Dick): "What was Last quarters revenue from track sales Bob....just under $4M. So, let me get this straight, you want to cannibalise an annualised revenue stream of circa $16M so your customers SMILE MORE!!! Bob....do I look like a c x x t to you?? Answer me Bob!! Bob....do you like working here?"

Cut scene to Bob entering the job centre!!

This is true - but it also demonstrates that they care more about cash than they do about their customer satisfaction. Also customers are more likely to buy kit if its compatible with stuff they already own ... it doesnt matter much to me because i work for a large and well resourced charity - but if i was buying from my own pocket I would be less likely to buy say a festool router , knowing that it won't fit to my dewalt tracks.

It also makes me wonder how hard it would be for someone wit metal fabrication skills to make adapter plates that would allow compatibility between the different brands

 

[chippy1970]

so lets just run that decision by the imaginary board meeting (pressured to deliver shareholder value).

Engineering Director (Bob): "Chaps(esses) we've had a hell-uv-a lot of feedback through our customer programme asking us to produce the same track design as "big Japanese geezer down the road Inc". It seems to make a lot of sense to the design and engineering side of the house because we'll have a bigger pool of skills to hire from, tooling will be cheaper as it's more widely available and of course most importantly......customers will be really happy!"

Managing Director (Dick): "What was Last quarters revenue from track sales Bob....just under $4M. So, let me get this straight, you want to cannibalise an annualised revenue stream of circa $16M so your customers SMILE MORE!!! Bob....do I look like a c x x t to you?? Answer me Bob!! Bob....do you like working here?"

Cut scene to Bob entering the job centre!!

I would be less likely to buy say a festool router , knowing that it won't fit to my dewalt tracks.

Ah but festool invented track guided tools first so surely it's all the other manufacturers that are in the wrong [emoji3] . To be honest there are some like Makita, mafell and maybe (not sure) even dewalt that fit the festool rails.

 

[9fingers]

Ah but festool invented track guided tools first

Are you sure on that? I must have had my Bosch circular saw & tracks getting on for 20years now and in those days, I'd never heard of Festool?
Of course they could have been going in Germany for age before getting cult status here.

Bob

 

[chippy1970]

Festool is 90 years old this year and invented a track guided saw back in the 60's

 

[9fingers]

Festool is 90 years old this year and invented a track guided saw back in the 60's

OK fairy nuff,

Whilst you were replying, I just looked up Festool patent filed in sept 2003.
https://www.google.com/patents/EP141801 ... CB4Q6AEwAA


Maybe that was an enhancement? I did not study it

Just curious really

Bob

 

[chippy1970]

Have a look on festool UK there's a history of festool somewhere. If I remember rightly they also made the first portable chainsaw and a few other tools.

 

[9fingers]

I certainly admire them for their innovation especially the creativity of the Domino mechanism. I just wish their prices were a better match to the hobby market ( and my budget). They seem a relative no brainer for trade use though.

Bob

 

[Wizard9999]

I certainly admire them for their innovation especially the creativity of the Domino mechanism. I just wish their prices were a better match to the hobby market ( and my budget). They seem a relative no brainer for trade use though.

Bob

Key question I guess is how long the patent protection on the domino has got left to run. Once that has gone there will be plenty of hobby options. But to be serious, if companies like Festool do not have a period to premium price innovative products they would just have to stop innovating, the bean counters wouldn't sanction it.

Terry.

 

[Rob]

especially with the Chinese in the frame. When I was running the software company we off-shored a bunch of our development to India (China is even cheaper) and the same job role for a developer/designer/tester/etc in the UK/USA was about 20% the cost in India. (Gone up a bit now but still waaay cheaper) That's 1/5th the cost...not 20% less. We literally hired 5 Indians to One Yank for the grunt stuff...amazing.

With those labour market economics and of course the somewhat "lax" Chinese attitude to business copyright respect, no one in the West would have a chance in hell to recover the capital cost of the innovation cycles.

That basic rule is true however....there is another aspect to this which is the skilful marketing of Festool (and indeed many German manufacturers in many markets) which is their particular skill at positioning themselves as THE premium vendor. Some of that premium price is just goodwill and doesn't relate to the "betterness" of the product. Look at Mafell as an example. They cost the earth and its clear they're fabulous quality. But they just don't (to me at least) appear to have quite scored the same "cache" that Festool have so successfully achieved.

As such Festool are still able to charge considerable premiums for their not so innovative tools like drill/drivers which are "old" technology now and get away with it. Granted, their drill drivers are bloody good ones again but I definitely always have a bit of a sense of I'm about to be fleeced a bit when reviewing Festool pricing. If they came down about 20 to30% I'd buy a lot more I'm sure.

I do own a domino though....I just couldn't resist when they first came out

 

[9fingers]

I could not agree more Rob. Festool have got it "right" in so many ways for the trade market even down to the systainers, fast repair / warranty and theft insurance.

If only someone would tell me how long SWMBO and I will live and how much care will cost us to be as comfortable as we are now, then I could start spending the kids inheritance accordingly. :lol:
But for now caution has to rule.

Bob

 

[RogerS]

so lets just run that decision by the imaginary board meeting (pressured to deliver shareholder value).

Engineering Director (Bob): "Chaps(esses) we've had a hell-uv-a lot of feedback through our customer programme asking us to produce the same track design as "big Japanese geezer down the road Inc". It seems to make a lot of sense to the design and engineering side of the house because we'll have a bigger pool of skills to hire from, tooling will be cheaper as it's more widely available and of course most importantly......customers will be really happy!"

Managing Director (Dick): "What was Last quarters revenue from track sales Bob....just under $4M. So, let me get this straight, you want to cannibalise an annualised revenue stream of circa $16M so your customers SMILE MORE!!! Bob....do I look like a c x x t to you?? Answer me Bob!! Bob....do you like working here?"

Cut scene to Bob entering the job centre!!

This is true - but it also demonstrates that they care more about cash than they do about their customer satisfaction. Also customers are more likely to buy kit if its compatible with stuff they already own ... it doesnt matter much to me because i work for a large and well resourced charity - but if i was buying from my own pocket I would be less likely to buy say a festool router , knowing that it won't fit to my dewalt tracks.

It also makes me wonder how hard it would be for someone wit metal fabrication skills to make adapter plates that would allow compatibility between the different brands

But why should Festool make their track the same as someone else's? Following your line of reasoning, the seats in my car aren't the same fitting as the bloke next door's car. I think you are being unreasonable TBH.

But that's by the by, what does it cut like ? Does it do the job? That surely is more important?

 

[Rob]

I thought we'd already volunteered as much data as we collectively know about its performance (which isn't a great deal to be fair).

The other comments were a bit of a (humorous) side track.

I think the point about why do manufacturers insist on defending their proprietary as long as possible is buried in the boardroom spoof ie to protect their revenue. What customers want, particularly when a tool or a gizmo has become really common place is a set of interchangeable standards so they know whatever track they buy will fit any saw. I mean we see it constantly in industry don't we: bayonet fittings for light bulbs, standard width white goods etc etc. There comes a point when the "thing" becomes enough of a commodity to reach a tipping point where customer convenience is better served. But I guess the tracks for track saws is not there yet!

 

[chataigner]

...or perhaps the market is not quite big enough for some enterprising manufaturer (Tracks are us) to come up with a universal track that fits every major system on the market. This way up it fits "xyz", this way up it fits "abc" and the back edge fits "pqr"...?

Fancy starting a business Bob ?

 

[big soft moose]

Okay so i used the sword in anger for the first time today - and overall i'm impressed

What I liked

It went through 4" and 6" thick green oak like a hot wire through butter
the track stayed put even without using the clamping system
It is clearly a high quality motor and very quiet with no sparking

What I didnt like

apart from the price (which didnt concern me much as its a work kit not my own), not much
the supplied bottle of chain oil only does one fill (but its measured to be one fill exactly - and it fits nicely in the systainer) - Axminster sell the oil in 5L bottles anyway and gave us a bottle with the sword so its no biggy
the clamp for the track doesnt expand wide enough to fit onto 4" wood - which is a design flaw when you consider that the raison d etre is material too big for a plunge saw - but as per above the track stays put without the clamp anyway

BSMs top tips of the day

be aware that the chain runs upwards on the 'top' of the bar - which i found counter intuitive because i thought it would run down in order to pull the saw into the work (and also because thats what i'm used to with chainsaws) - of course reading the instructions would have alerted me to this , so its not festools fault.

also if you are using it without a dust extractor (as i was) it throws out an absolute fuck tonne of chip, so make sure that the spout is pointing away from your face and any work mates and close the systainer before you start work so you don't fill it full to the brim with chip

 

[chippy1970]

Moose, you know they do sell much bigger rail clamps ? They do a 300mm one which would be better with the sword saw

 

[big soft moose]

just to add that today i discovered we also have a clamp which goes on the underside of the track and workslike a giant sash cramp so you can use it on any thickness so long as it has oposite edges. - that was in the systainer under the foam lining :eusa-doh:

 

[chippy1970]

just to add that today i discovered we also have a clamp which goes on the underside of the track and workslike a giant sash cramp so you can use it on any thickness so long as it has oposite edges. - that was in the systainer under the foam lining :eusa-doh:

That's a good find , I didn't know it came with the fs rapid clamp.

 

[podengo]

Has anybody got any updates on the Festool sword saw

I am involved with a company that makes car ports and canopies using posts made from opepe and I wondered if this would work