Heads up on this sad sale.

[toolsntat]

 

[AJB Temple]

Yes. The BBC reported on it a while ago. Apparently there was difficulty attracting enough students to learn about wooden boatbuilding and repair, so the business became unviable for the second time. You would think in this country we could maintain educational establishments like this to preserve our heritage, but if no-one wants to do it it's difficult.

 

[Mike G]

I wonder if that's really the issue, Adrian. There are quite a number of boatyards around the country specialising in wooden boat building and repairs, and many of them recruit and train directly. In other words, it's not doing the work that appears to be the problem, but the need for separate training. Why go to school when you can learn on-the-job, and whilst getting paid?

 

[Spectric]

There is always the need for training establishments, maybe not always full time but just learning on the job is great but also having other input and ideas is beneficial, you also meet others from other employee's and is this not how many people have learnt their trades. You do so many days with an employee and one day a week in a training enviroment. What is sad is the number of these teaching establishments in woodworking and furniture making that are no more, just to many people want flat pack and Ikea compared to something made that is unique by a skilled craftsman.

 

[Blackswanwood]

I was surprised when this was announced having seen them at the Harrogate show in November. The owners had rescued the business originally.

Their announcement said:

"This difficult decision comes after a series of negative economic events alongside a continued shift in perception of what constitutes quality training in the UK. These events include Brexit, COVID and the Ukraine war. All have had an impact on material costs and general overheads; this, linked with falling student numbers leaves the college economically unviable.”

I wonder how many of their students were from outside of the UK.

Traditional boatbuilding is on the red list of heritage crafts that are at risk ... hopefully the gap they leave gets filled and it isn't lost.

 

[thetyreman]

maybe they just were not capable of turning it around, without sounding disrespectful I can't imagine the pay being amazing and people seem allergic to real hard work thesedays, it's also limited only to local people, which is always a problem, because of the nature of how modern boats are built I'd have thought that this is a dying trade, the demand just isn't there like it once was.

 

[RogerS]

A bit more local news on it

Boatbuilding training college is facing liquidation

An internationally recognised boatbuilding training college in Lowestoft is set to close its doors for the final time next week.

www.lowestoftjournal.co.uk

and in March 2023, this training place closed

IBTC Portsmouth

IBTC Portsmouth teaches traditional wooden boatbuilding and joinery techniques in Portsmouth, England. We offer 12-week Joinery and 1-year Boatbuilding courses to adult students of any age and every background.

ibtcportsmouth.co.uk

 

[JamesHow]

It's crazy that they give so much money away to the arts, city of culture, etc etc.

Yet stuff like this doesn't get funded it's madness...

Our worlds gone mad, I blame the celebrities, the influencers, the YouTubers.

You'll have 100 kids flocking up to do dance (nothing wrong with dance btw) but none wanting to do joinery!

 

[RogerS]

.....

Our worlds gone mad, I blame the celebrities, the influencers, the YouTubers.

....

I blame p**s poor parenting, social media amd smartphones

 

[Spectric]

Bang on Roger, when people said the Tv would be the end of society little did they forsee the so called smart phone which is ripping society to shreds and liquidising childrens brains.

 

[AndyP]

Do you think over education has had an impact too?

 

[Mike]

Do you think over education has had an impact too?

Many years ago, my wife and I were in London for a long weekend vacation. One evening we were in a crowded pub and shared a table with two young men. During our conversation with them, we learned they had recently graduated from University with degrees in Sound Engineering.

I was interested in this because one of my supported organizations in Italy had an issue with an annoying intermittent audible resonance from an unknown source. While I was briefly describing the situation, I asked for their suggestions for the types and placement of acoustic sensors or accelerometers to baseline the facility and possibly add transducers to cancel the vibrations. The blank stares on their faces told me that a Sound Engineer might not mean what I though it was. One of the men told me their degree was in erecting and placing sound equipment for bands and other concert venues. Neither of them had any idea what an accelerometer or transducer was. My wife and I were surprised a UK university offered a four-year college degree for what we would consider to be a technician.

Once we got past that, we learned one of the men was the last male child from generations of stone masons. When his father retired (or died), the trade ended because none of his sisters were interested in the trade. The other man was the youngest of three bothers from generations of carpenters. Only one of the older brothers was going to continue the trade. I asked if either of them would go back to the family trade if they couldn't find a job as a sound engineer. Almost instantly, both said "No!" They enjoyed their taste of the city life and did not have any intention of returning to manual labor.

 

[AJB Temple]

To be fair, most people will choose what they want to do or what pays the most and there is no reason why that should be the same as their parents. My father was an engineer and so was my brother. Whilst I liked all practical things like woodwork and engineering, it didn't pay much compared with what I actually did. If I were to do it all again I would go to medical school, as at least what doctors do is mostly useful and of lasting value.

My point is, if there is no demand for wooden boat building training, then that means there are few jobs and / or poor pay. Rational people don't choose that if they have other options.

PS Mike - that 4 year degree has qualified them to become what we used to call "roadies" by the sound of it.

 

[Spectric]

Do you think over education has had an impact too?

Education needs to be aimed at the right individual, we are all different and intelligence should not be measured on just an academic scale where everyone goes to get a degree in something or anything. Some people are academic and university will bring the best out in them but for others it is the actual doing that gives them a buzz, ie trades like motor technicians & sparkies. What seems to be lacking today is that desire for knowledge, being curious about the world around you which is what got many people motivated once upon a time to pursue a certain direction but spending the majority of your early years staring at that phone screen is just brain numbing and creating a generation of nothing.

 

[Mike]

PS Mike - that 4 year degree has qualified them to become what we used to call "roadies" by the sound of it.

That's what we thought as well, but didn't understand why any university would offer a roadie degree.

 

[Artiglio]

I had a tenant, who was midway through a degree course to become a researcher, been shown how the boiler timer worked when he moved in and again when he forgot the first time ( the old style timer with push out slides) called again , i’m not doing it a third time and suggested he look it up online, didn’t know what search terms to put in he claimed. So i sent him the link. Utterly useless cretin but apparently successfuly gained his degree.
As for trades, very few are willing to get up early, work hard, and put up with the delayed path to reasonable earnings ( i blame that on the benefit system as they’ll all know someone getting around 15k in benefits and topping it up with a bit of cash in hand labour8ng/ or shopliftingif they want a bit extra) 15k and council tax paid for doing nothing means kids expect to take home at least another 10k a year for doing a full time job, 25k after tax just ain’t happening during an apprenticeship, so most will swerve such opportunities.
If i put a flat up for rent , i’ll get couples who tell the DWP they are sharers and with a bit of extra for “mental health issues” will be bringing £31,200 into the home. The more savvy will then say they’ve entered a relationship and say their issues have worsened and try to end up as each others carers. The stories in the press ,that are said to be alarmist, are a reality in my area when it comes to benefit dependency.
A lot of youngsters these days have very different expectations to those i expect most on here had in their formative years.

 

[RogerS]

That's what we thought as well, but didn't understand why any university would offer a roadie degree.

It gets fees in. Never mind if the degree is pointless.

 

[Eric the Viking]

[Caution: TLDR alert!]

There are two people on this thread who directly know he quality of sound engineer training the BBC used to offer.

When I started in sound in 1978, there was one whole course* outside the BBC, the Tonmeister postgraduate course at Surrey. A classical music degree was a prerequisite (so that was beyond me). They graduated less than two dozen people per year, who were expected to carve out careers in the music industry.

The BBC induction course was rigorous: half electrical/electronic and acoustic theory, and half practical, followed up with more in-depth courses six months to a year later (after getting practical experience on station). They told us their basic course was intended to cover the 1st-year electronics university undergraduate syllabus, but in 12 weeks (well, six really, as the other six were mostly practical). "So, you're struggling with complex numbers. Well, here's the textbook, go back and re-read it carefully..."

There was a test every Friday morning, pass mark 90% (50 or so questions, requiring understanding and fast mental arithmetic). You could fail once, 89% a second time meant termination of your contract. We had two people, both degree-qualified, leave our course because of the pressure.

I've since got a pretty good degree, but I've never worked so hard academically. And it didn't qualify me to be a 'proper' engineer, either: that would've meant two more courses, of similar length and intensity to the first one.

Nowadays the media degrees that proliferate don't (can't?) even explain basic operating principles. They just train in processes ("in that situation, do this..."). They don't educate, nor train students to think.

It starts in school. For example, every child is supposedly taught basic science, yet we still have even politicians responsible for national strategy confused about energy versus power (hint: they are NOT synonyms), and wholly unaware of dust-to-dust cost issues. Decisions costing billions are made whimsically, as they lack the analysis skills.

Regarding trade skills, apprenticeships, etc. I wholly agree, but it's culture: you can't just throw money at it, when craft skills and quality of workmanship are not valued. Anyone else want to live in Japan?

Sorry, Way too much information.

E.

*The ITA (became the IBA, responsible for ITV stations) did have a technical training centre at Crawley Court, but their courses were postgraduate and aimed at transmission engineering mostly -- not my field. They also trained very low numbers of people.

 

[JamesHow]

[Caution: TLDR alert!]

There are two people on this thread who directly know he quality of sound engineer training the BBC used to offer.

When I started in sound in 1978, there was one whole course* outside the BBC, the Tonmeister postgraduate course at Surrey. A classical music degree was a prerequisite (so that was beyond me). They graduated less than two dozen people per year, who were expected to carve out careers in the music industry.

The BBC induction course was rigorous: half electrical/electronic and acoustic theory, and half practical, followed up with more in-depth courses six months to a year later (after getting practical experience on station). They told us their basic course was intended to cover the 1st-year electronics university undergraduate syllabus, but in 12 weeks (well, six really, as the other six were mostly practical). "So, you're struggling with complex numbers. Well, here's the textbook, go back and re-read it carefully..."

There was a test every Friday morning, pass mark 90% (50 or so questions, requiring understanding and fast mental arithmetic). You could fail once, 89% a second time meant termination of your contract. We had two people, both degree-qualified, leave our course because of the pressure.

I've since got a pretty good degree, but I've never worked so hard academically. And it didn't qualify me to be a 'proper' engineer, either: that would've meant two more courses, of similar length and intensity to the first one.

Nowadays the media degrees that proliferate don't (can't?) even explain basic operating principles. They just train in processes ("in that situation, do this..."). They don't educate, nor train students to think.

It starts in school. For example, every child is supposedly taught basic science, yet we still have even politicians responsible for national strategy confused about energy versus power (hint: they are NOT synonyms), and wholly unaware of dust-to-dust cost issues. Decisions costing billions are made whimsically, as they lack the analysis skills.

Regarding trade skills, apprenticeships, etc. I wholly agree, but it's culture: you can't just throw money at it, when craft skills and quality of workmanship are not valued. Anyone else want to live in Japan?

Sorry, Way too much information.

E.

*The ITA (became the IBA, responsible for ITV stations) did have a technical training centre at Crawley Court, but their courses were postgraduate and aimed at transmission engineering mostly -- not my field. They also trained very low numbers of people.

I have a friend who studied sound engineering at Southampton.
Then went on to work at Arups for 20 years doing opera houses, theatres, arenas etc.

His was definitely a top class sound degree!

 

[Eric the Viking]

I have a friend who studied sound engineering at Southampton.
Then went on to work at Arups for 20 years doing opera houses, theatres, arenas etc.

His was definitely a top class sound degree!

That's acoustics. I'm sure it's a great course, and it overlaps with sound engineering, but it's only a part of it. The Tonmeister course (Surrey based theirs on the german model) is/was about recording and a bit of broadcast engineering.

 

[RogerS]

EtV....when were you at Wood Norton ? Was it the TO course that you were on or a specialist course? Sounds very much like the latter.

 

[Eric the Viking]

1978, just after you left ETD.
A57, followed by an Audio Assistant's course about 9 months later, I think in 1979 (ours was the first one run).
Audio Supervisor training was done on-station with an attachment to Ealing/Lime Grove/TvC (film/post-pro was a speciality for a while, then TV news).
No 'B' or 'C' courses.
We did have TOs on our 'A' course, and some direct-entry (i.e. postgrad) engineers, but nobody destined for transmitters or TV engineering as far as I remember, although we had lots of PAL theory, etc.

 

[Ovaloe]

... and people seem allergic to real hard work these days...

My personal experience of apprentice carpenters isn't quite that, however, they do seem to resent the low wages they receive, whilst often also thinking that achieving a Level 2 NVQ makes them fully qualified and worth the same as a fully trained and experienced man is. They are also, for the most part, far too fascinated with what is going on on social media, to the point where many cannot go more than 10 minutes without the need to look at their phone and join in to conversations. It is difficult to wean them off their phones and the inattention to the job this causes results in more than a few dismissals (i've had several put with me as a last chance only for them to be fired because they cannot mend their ways)

My wife and I were surprised a UK university offered a four-year college degree for what we would consider to be a technician.

See my comments above re-NVQs (to me NVQ means Not Very Qualified whilst taking the same amount of time as a C&G).

Education needs to be aimed at the right individual, we are all different and intelligence should not be measured on just an academic scale where everyone goes to get a degree in something or anything. Some people are academic and university will bring the best out in them but for others it is the actual doing that gives them a buzz, ie trades like motor technicians & sparkies. What seems to be lacking today is that desire for knowledge...

The issue we have in the trades is that these days the sort of apprentices we would once have had, often late bloomers or lads who were not academically gifted, get shunted through a system where despite having a shorter school day and doing next to to homework often seems to turn them into A or B stream. So they go to university rather than into the trades. And so often we are left with the dross who at one time would have been site labourers and little more. This has been a progresdive decline that we have seen since the turn of the century - and this isn't just my opinion, but is the opinion of many more senior guys I've worked with across the trades

 

[RogerS]

.......They told us their basic course was intended to cover the 1st-year electronics university undergraduate syllabus, .....

Mmm....as you know I have more than a passing knowledge of the A course content having taught it at ETD and written the wee book that you would have been given a copy of.

So I think they were telling you porkies. Either that or a 1st-year electronics BSc course has been drastically dumbed down !

 

[Alasdair]

PS Mike - that 4 year degree has qualified them to become what we used to call "roadies" by the sound of it.

That is very true, I did 6 months on the road with a band when I was in my early 20s. I was taken on as a set joiner but the nature was you worked with sound and light guys too. I had a blast touring Germany and the other roadies were a great bunch of guys (albeit they drunk or stoned most of the time). Not one had spent 4 years at Uni for a degree

 

[Alasdair]

I think to add to the conversation, I know a lot of 'older' joiners who are still on the tools mainly working on housebuilding sites or trying to get back to the house builders as they don’t want to work on general jobbing, workshops (most don't know one end of a bench from another and have no interest in learning) or general carpentry/joinery. Apparently big sites are still easier money, the work is repetitive, and you don't need to think much. They are also saying that none are interested in apprentices as they cost too much, moan about the cost of tools and don't pull their weight. A lot of joiners also hold the view that to earn a decent living they have to invest heavily on tools, vans, insurances, etc and youngsters coming into the trade are put of by the cost of tooling, no longer is a bag with a hammer, axe, two Yankee screwdrivers, a chisel roll with a selection of chisels (1/4" - 11/8") a brace and roll of bits enough to get started with even basic tools running to high hundreds or over a thousand pounds.

When my son was around 14 I was going to ask around for some work experience on the tools as he had shown some interest but he didn't want to go into the building trade as it was too physically demanding, and was set to go to uni for law or accountancy. He decided that was too boring. He is now a serving Royal Marine Commando (not physically demanding at all ).

 

[AJB Temple]

It's actually a total shame that we don't properly support as a nation, apprenticeship schemes any more. It is one of the things that has damaged our economic substance.

 

[Mike]

It's actually a total shame that we don't properly support as a nation, apprenticeship schemes any more. It is one of the things that has damaged our economic substance.

As you likely know, Germany has a wonderful state and employer sponsored program called "Ausbildung". The Ausbildung program is open to anyone interested an apprenticeship in over 300 job categories. The program starts around the end of the tenth year of school and successful applicants are sponsored by a company for two to four years of classroom and hands-on training. Some of the programs provide a stipend for the student as well as all required tools and equipment. At the end of the program, most applicants are offered positions within the company that sponsored them; otherwise, they are on their own to find employment.

My wife's grandson applied and was accepted for an Ausbildung position in CADD/CAM with Audi when he was 16. At the end of his apprenticeship program three years later, he received a very good employment offer working in the same department and his choice of cars at a ridiculously low cost with an interest free loan. Not bad for a teenager.

 

[Chris152]

I think it's worth remembering it's not the youngsters who decided to be brought up in a society and economy that accepted and encouraged smart phones (etc). And blaming parents for the same is probably unfair - those youngsters who are now entering the work force are the first generation to have been fully exposed to such addictive (and often very damaging) technology, and parents (including myself) had no idea 20 years ago how that technology would develop.

 

[Ovaloe]

I think to add to the conversation, I know a lot of 'older' joiners who are still on the tools mainly working on housebuilding sites or trying to get back to the house builders as they don’t want to work on general jobbing, workshops (most don't know one end of a bench from another and have no interest in learning) or general carpentry/joinery.

I don't know which 'older' joiners you are referring to, but pretty much all of the guys I've worked with in recent years who were late 50s and older were products of an apprentice system which up until the 1980s produced "carpenters and joiners", i.e. your qualification required both site and bench skills (and quite a few medium to large firms also required you to do a wood machining qualification as well). Saying that, we always had a few jobber joiners and site fixers (site carpenters), but I wouldn't be in such a rush to knock their skills either, as it takes a certain skill set to be able to buttress a collapsing building or set multiple lintels, etc quickly and accurately. Older generally means a lot more and wider experience. But as to 'older' joiners doing price work on newbuild housing you just won't see many of them - boring, repetitive and kills your body. Go on site and you'll find it's a young man's game.

The fact of the matter, though, is that site skills have always paid better than bench skills, at least in my lifetime. Many workshops I know have been increasingly dependent on a majority of semi-skilled (i.e. not formally trained) bodies overseen by 1 or 2 qualified joiners. I once worked in such a shop for a few months with my own 'team' and it was an experience I'd be lothe to repeat

One thing I will say about life on site is that you tend to see all the c*ck-*ps perpetrated by guys in the workshop who don't have a clue about the problems of installing their product correctly (or at all). Probably a product if the division of site carpentry and bench joinery since the 1980s (when NVQs came in). Much better, I'd say, to go back to the old system of training people as carpenters AND joiners, despite it taking an extra year. A return to the concept of people being journeymen whilst they completed their indentures (isn't this what they do in Germany?) might be a step too far for the modern intake, however good a tradesman it would produce

BTW to put it in perspective I have managed to avoid new build price work for most of my life because of its' poor reputation

 

[JamesHow]

I think to add to the conversation, I know a lot of 'older' joiners who are still on the tools mainly working on housebuilding sites or trying to get back to the house builders as they don’t want to work on general jobbing, workshops (most don't know one end of a bench from another and have no interest in learning) or general carpentry/joinery. Apparently big sites are still easier money, the work is repetitive, and you don't need to think much. They are also saying that none are interested in apprentices as they cost too much, moan about the cost of tools and don't pull their weight. A lot of joiners also hold the view that to earn a decent living they have to invest heavily on tools, vans, insurances, etc and youngsters coming into the trade are put of by the cost of tooling, no longer is a bag with a hammer, axe, two Yankee screwdrivers, a chisel roll with a selection of chisels (1/4" - 11/8") a brace and roll of bits enough to get started with even basic tools running to high hundreds or over a thousand pounds.

When my son was around 14 I was going to ask around for some work experience on the tools as he had shown some interest but he didn't want to go into the building trade as it was too physically demanding, and was set to go to uni for law or accountancy. He decided that was too boring. He is now a serving Royal Marine Commando (not physically demanding at all ).

How much would a set of tools cost for site work. Thinking cordless kit and mitre saw? £1-2k?

 

[Eric the Viking]

How much would a set of tools cost for site work. Thinking cordless kit and mitre saw? £1-2k?

At a guess, 5,000-10,000, depending on specialities. It's shocking how quickly it all adds up.
Disclaimer: I'm not a pro, but I have learned the hard way, "buy cheap buy twice".

 

[meccarroll]

The NVQ style of education now allows people to gain NVQ qualifications directly on the job with no need to attend a college or training centre.

I have worked with people that have gained their NVQ's through taking photos of their work on site and sending it in for assessment. The work can be verified by a supervisor on site before being assessed. Some on site assessment takes place but very little in practice. Once they have collected enough evidence of onsite work it is sent away to be verified and they gain an NVQ.

It is a very poor way to gain a qualification because very often supervisors on site have no training in education yet qualify the work to be assessed. I have worked in a college of further education training apprentices so know the value college training can give.

It's a shame the boat building college has shut down but most boats around the area of the college are built of fibreglass and not really built traditionally. From what I remember Lowestoft College used to offer boat building courses and would have been a competitor, don't know if they still do.