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Log burner install. Update if anyone is interested

AJB Temple

AJB Temple

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Replacing ancient log burner. New super eco 90% efficient stove instead.

Turns out existing fireplace and flue is a right pain to re-use and would require complete flue replacement and some building work on the brick fireplace to remove combustable beam. Got quotes (excluding fireplace remedial work): £4,240 being the best for a new flue installed (log burner extra). Hetas signed off. Placing log burner in alternative location in room with new flue direct to external wall (simplest possible and actually a better location) quoted at £3,650.

Nearly fell off chair and then had to take wife to A&E. :o

Spoke to technical director at log burner factory who confirmed that DIY and building control sign off is totally fine. Same guy contradicted practically everything the log burner retailers had told us too. Real eye opener. :?

To buy every single component, for a new 6” flue, using German made highest quality push together stainless steel twin wall components and a compliant design (part J and Hetas) is just under £1000, including wall shields and flue cap. I reckon that all fitting including drilling the 45 degree hole through the wall is at most 2 days work. In fact it is a day’s work (this is not much different to fitting a really big drainage downpipe) and day two accommodates building control sign off and tidying up. Building notice and inspection fee is £200. Already spoke to building control and emailed forma and letter.

So £1,200 all in plus the stove. Versus £3,650. Insane difference.

Question
Anyone drilled a 45 degree hole through a wall for a double skin 150mm internal diameter flue pipe (approx. 200mm hole)? If so any tips? It’s going through plaster & blockwork on the inside and timber cladding externally. I’ve already got a 200mm diamond core drill I think. Total wall thickness will end up as up to 350mm but I haven’t made the internal stud, insulation and panelling yet.

PS, old fake inglenook style brick fireplace will now house the hi fi and satellite kit and have TV above it. This is actually a much better outcome for us.

Is this worth a WIP (saved for new forum software as I am super busy right now but can take snaps)
 
Sounds a bit more complicated than the two I've had done in our house, but costs do feel high.

For example, stove 1 in our lounge tapped into the existing twin wall flue and just needed a new flue extension and cap, that all came in around £3k.

Stove 2 is in the Playroom, which is now my wife's office. That is stove, twinwall flue straight up, running in between rafters, with associated ceiling plate internally and flashing/flue/cap outside. That came in just over £4k, but was a plusher stove.

Never drilled a large diameter hole like that at an angle so it will be fun I imagine. Only comment I'd make is my stove guy mentioned that of the total length of the flue there is a maximum allowance that can run at 45deg before it begins to impact the draw, so worth just making sure you know what that is and don't exceed.

Definitely one for a WIP when I've got the forum migrated. Made a little headway on that in the past week and working on the more technical elements at the moment, so fingers crossed the database migration tool works properly then we can start looking at it properly. If only Xenforo gave you more than 7 days free trial it would make life a bit easier...
 
The problem with drilling a hole through a wall at 45 degrees with a core drill is starting it.........and then being certain that it's long enough to reach all the way through the other side all around. If this is face brickwork and you want a neat hole, then you might have to glue on a triangle of block such that the core drill meets its face square on. Drill a pilot hole before starting the core cutting. Hot melt glue might be the best approach, as its removal shouldn't leave too many clues on the brickwork.

The other approach is to remove enough masonry in the area with a hammer and bolster to get the flue through, then re-build.
 
Do it the Cypriot way. Stove 3 foot off one wall, flue vertical to the ceiling, then horizontal across the room and out the far wall still horizontal. then vertical till just below the eaves.
Breaks every rule in the H^S manual, but heats the whole house. :eusa-dance: :eusa-dance: :eusa-doh: :eusa-doh: :eusa-doh: :eusa-doh:
 
I've recently had to core through 500 mm sandstone and rubble walls to bring in a new water supply. To be brutally honest I don't think it's going to be possible to freehand core on a 45 degree angle for a hole of that diameter. A job like that would typically need a rig. Depending on thickness of the wall I'd either core an oversized and level hole able to accommodate the pipe at the angle, or knock through with hammer and cold chisel then make good. If the external face is timber clad then making good needn't be to "show" standard so that might be the way to go.
 
Yep, only once but researched it pretty well, all went fine, and I later had it certified by a heatas engineer who said it was fine, sorry only a couple of pertinent pics, the shape of the ellipse I took from the stainless trim which goes around the pipe on the outside, then as you can see I rigged up a big 45° set Square to guide my drilling, it was a doddle really. The grey boarding I used for the register plate was Hardie backer board, completely fireproof, you do need to read up all the regs online as it would be easy to get it wrong eg plasterboard having paper on it and a wood mantelpiece have to be a certain distance from the fire.
Ian

EC890E6B-F8A3-45B0-B938-89E3EDAC8B56.png

BC1CD7F3-B2AA-4A28-8063-3BBD35E61E47.png

From memory I used a three quarter inch x 500mm long masonry drill bit in my fairly ordinary SDS drill, there was a little bit of breakout on the outside of the wall but nothing that wasn’t covered by the 2” trim.
 
Thanks guys. That's really helpful

I like the pro-forma idea glued on with hot melt. Thanks Mike. The actual wall thickness as it stands (it's just blockwork and plaster) is only about 8" in this spot, and I was thinking of running a long pilot drill right through and then come at it from both sides. Needless to say there are electrics in the way currently.

My plan is only to have one 45 degree angle piece and it will have to be whatever length is needed to reach the 600mm upstand flue on the freestanding log burner. I don't want a backing plate behind the stove so will go the required wall clearance which is either 10cm or 40 cm depending on stove and spigot. I am using steel spacers through the wall and at the penetration points inside and out I think. Could easily be 1400mm overall between centre stove spigot and centre external vertical flue.

Bob - as ever your ideas are creative but totally non-compliant with regs. ;) UK does not permit horizontal pipework (which is illogical as some stoves have rear exit and a 90 degree outlet...). I want a building regs certificate and I don't want to burn the house down....
 
Good day, i’d similarly been struck dumb by the estimates i’ve had for a stove and flue, started to make a few enquiries for diy. Would you mind sharing the contact details of the chap you spoke with? In respect of core drilling , do a search along the lines of “ hilti core drill stands”, they or similar are available via some of the larger hire shop chains.
 
I have to say, Adrian, that I think your best approach is to forget the core drill. The torque required to get through the masonry with say a 200 diameter hole would be enormous. I think the photo Ian has posted above is your best approach.....multiple 15-20mm diameter holes, and then chisel out. Or chop out to square, insert your pipework, and make good.
 
Adrian, most of the gas and solid fuel installs here make me want run a long way away from them :eusa-hand: Even worse before I retired and was supposed to report all unsafe installations. :eusa-whistle:

But seriously, I have made big holes through walls, and I would go straight through with hole, then elongate from both sides. This might sound a long way round, but if youre going to make formers and stabilising brackets, and templates, the straight is usually quicker.

One important point. Remember I have a lifetime of corgi gas licenses. Before balanced flue wall boilers, all internal appliance / external flue systems had a minimum vertical length flue before the bend. This is required for complete combustion and correct flue "draw".
Check carefully to see if wood burners have the same requirement, I strongly suspect they do.
 
Adrian…was there any reason to have a snipe…….again…..at the forum software?

And please……don’t act all coy again in any reply.

Mark is also Super Busy.
 
I can't help with the 45 degree hole, but being relatively local and we used this company 4 or so years ago.

https://www.gatfire.co.uk/

They were the cheapest we found by far, I did all builder's works and so their install was super straightforward existing chimney, and liner already removed by me. But when I costed up buying parts retail their cost was barely more to have it installed and signed off.
 
The quotes do seem quite high, nice house expensive area? Bit like when anyone mentions the word Wedding all costs double. We had two woodburners fitted last year, not at all like you are having done but still the amounts were less than half your quotes Adrian.
 
I did not snipe at all Roger. Mark has said he is replacing it imminently and I said I would do a WIP when the new stuff is in. Some of the older members here are intent in taking things out of context.

WIP can't be done for several weeks as there is annoyingly a lead time on the various bits of kit that are needed, of at least 3 weeks. I want the stove on site before I start drilling holes in the wall so that I can be dead certain that it is in the right place. There has been apparently a shortage of vermiculite sheet which is used for the "fire bricks".

Bob - yes I knew you were Corgi etc. My brother was too. The regs are a bit odd in many respects as some dimensional aspects have no clear logic and manufacturer recommendations overrides HETAS as far as Building Control is concerned. Anyway, back to endless grouting for me. One of the dirties jobs (on a floor) known to man.

Artiglio - PM me and I will provide contact details inc building control.
 
I haven't found it yet, but it should be somewhere online where you create an ellipse by cutting a cylinder at 45 degrees in your case. That ellipse is the the perimeter of the hole in your wall.

If that can be drawn and then printed accurately in any sort of cad program, you can paste that on your wall as a guide.

Cylinder ellipse.png
 
Malc2098":1pzc7k3x said:
I haven't found it yet, but it should be somewhere online where you create an ellipse by cutting a cylinder at 45 degrees in your case. That ellipse is the the perimeter of the hole in your wall.

If that can be drawn and then printed accurately in any sort of cad program, you can paste that on your wall as a guide.
Click to expand...


That would be really easy to do in SketchUp...
 
TrimTheKing":1toqgeeo said:
Malc2098":1toqgeeo said:
I haven't found it yet, but it should be somewhere online where you create an ellipse by cutting a cylinder at 45 degrees in your case. That ellipse is the the perimeter of the hole in your wall.

If that can be drawn and then printed accurately in any sort of cad program, you can paste that on your wall as a guide.
Click to expand...


That would be really easy to do in SketchUp...
Click to expand...


Except I don't know how to print it accurately.

Cylinder ellipse-2.png
 
TrimTheKing":3cyumcyg said:
I think there's a print option that allows you to print to scale isn't there? It's been a while...
Click to expand...


Not with my freebee I'm afraid. Only with the paid versions. But you would have have the face of that ellipse vertical and at scale.
 
Malc2098":2p1jc4m7 said:
TrimTheKing":2p1jc4m7 said:
Malc2098":2p1jc4m7 said:
I haven't found it yet, but it should be somewhere online where you create an ellipse by cutting a cylinder at 45 degrees in your case. That ellipse is the the perimeter of the hole in your wall.

If that can be drawn and then printed accurately in any sort of cad program, you can paste that on your wall as a guide.
Click to expand...


That would be really easy to do in SketchUp...
Click to expand...


Except I don't know how to print it accurately.

Click to expand...

Some of you do like to make things complicated, as I said earlier you can just draw around the trim that comes with the flue! Pimps
 
Yes, thanks muchly chaps. The plan of action is make final decision on stove when retailer comes on Thursday. We are buying Burley as they are 85% to 90% efficient and have very low particulate output. I realise marketing is a factor.

When Stove is on site (might be 3 weeks from Thursday) we will shift it (105kg) around the room and see which position is optimal for us. In the meantime chimney design, which is dead simple, is in the process of being approved by BC and then that will be ordered next week.

I don't have sketch up but I can probably cobble up an elipse that is near enough. My main concern is actually cutting through the outside cladding without getting it in the wrong place or making a huge mess. There is a slight technical difficulty in that the finished wall on the inside will be almost 200mm away from the existing inside wall, so I will have to do a mock up or make the panelling removable. I also need to make sure I have enough clearance from a horizontal combustible (oak) beam at near ceiling level, both in and out.
 
Adrian, dont forget the air supply, we have a Burley Brampton which has a ducted air supply connected directly into the back of the burner and controlled via a lever at the front, that could be be another 4" hole to drill.

I have done some stupid jobs in the past, as in drilling through concrete walls and floors as well as soft brick and block, the easier ones were actually the concrete, because we could add water to assist, plus we used a proper diamond drilling rig, when It came the soft brick and block, they always sounded easy to do, but were an absolute pain, with the core drill locking up and catching a few snatches, my SDS drills all have clutches on , but even then it gets frustrating when it wont let you back it off, consider getting a Diamond drilling company in, would be my advice.
 
Thanks Paul. Yes, it is a sealed room (or will be when I am finished) with very high insulation values and requires an 80mm internal diameter steel pipe (comes with the stove as a kit) into the back of the fire, going via a 100mm hole through brick. I have identified the kit to do this.

Do you rate Burley?
 
Adrian
A sealed room with very high insulation do you even need a woodburner? Friends of mine have done similar to their old house and no way would they ever light a woodburner even in winter.
Just a thought

Mark
 
the bear":fy2qc8yi said:
Adrian
A sealed room with very high insulation do you even need a woodburner? Friends of mine have done similar to their old house and no way would they ever light a woodburner even in winter.
Just a thought

Mark
Click to expand...

My business partner is in the process of upgrading his house to passivehaus standards, and has removed the woodburner with the expectation that it would overheat the house quickly with the insulation they are applying. So this is a good point. This would be a problem to me; a fire is so much more than a source of heat.
 
These are good points. And I did think about them and am still thinking about them.

The property as a whole is unsuitable to be a passive house. The main part of the building is a late 1600's barn conversion (converted using building standard of the late 1970s - ie barely there) and insulating the entire building to a very high standard is beyond our resources and desire.

We are radically modernising a central core living area. This is not a high ceiling section (where unusable space is heated) but is still a volume of 240 cubic metres of air. This is the living core in effect and for much of the cool part of the year is the only part that will be heated.

Relocating the log burner from the original hearth makes air circulation much better.

We have oil central heating which is both expensive and not very controllable, and the log burner is used in Autumn and Spring when we do not use the central heating much. Some parts of the building are heated inefficiently by the central heating because of air leakage that is almost inevitable in old barns. These are rooms that are largely unused except when offspring are here. Although we have two central heating zones (one can be shut off) and thermostats on every rad. Running a high efficiency log burner is a great deal cheaper than using oil.
 
My living room used to overheat, my wife would then open the windows. The room was two two knocked through to one, so I put 4" bathroom fan in just below the coving at the far end of the room (the heat went out into the stairwell and upstairs) and a small desk fan blowing across the front of the stove towards it. This was nearly full time in the winter, at 50w the pair it was affordable and it made a big difference. Had we stayed there I'd have changed the fan for a 6" one.
 
Sheffield Tony":1ycrfxjg said:
the bear":1ycrfxjg said:
Adrian
A sealed room with very high insulation do you even need a woodburner? Friends of mine have done similar to their old house and no way would they ever light a woodburner even in winter.
Just a thought

Mark
Click to expand...

My business partner is in the process of upgrading his house to passivehaus standards, and has removed the woodburner with the expectation that it would overheat the house quickly with the insulation they are applying. So this is a good point. This would be a problem to me; a fire is so much more than a source of heat.
Click to expand...

My sister and her husband live in such a house and have ethanol? Stove, doesn’t give off much heat but looks quite pretty. Ethanol might not be the correct word , it uses a clear liquid.
Ian
 
Cost benefit analysis:

Oak, apple and some other stuff we can source for the next few years for near free. Anything else = not free.
 
The folks that installed our woodburner had a small digital inclinometer with a magnetic base that they referenced to horizontal with a spirit level that was fixed onto the top of the drill used to make the hole through the wall - tilt to 45 degrees and push. They did several holes with a 15mm bit following the perimeter then knocked out the intervening masonary with a hammer & bolster.

David
 
AJB Temple":2ogaw4qb said:
Do you rate Burley?
Click to expand...

Adrian, we have progressed from an open fire and have had several small wood burners in the past 35 years in our little Cottage, they all struggled to give us a great deal of benefit with heat output, as it stands the Burley has been the best of all, the fireball gets going quickly and with with its contollability! doesn't take long to get a good burn going and start punching heat out, it is though massively over sized in theory for our room/Cottage, as we also get the benefit of "free" wood we haven't fired up our oil fired central heating at all for quite a few years, another plus point, it is also useful for heating up/cooking on the flat top as well..
 
Interesting designs Phil. Derived from tanks seemingly.

My wife said yes when I asked her what she thought. This means no.
 
Another stove man visited today. They seem to be a bit of a breed.

Recommended Dik Guerts.

The flue is in all cases so far the most costly part. Lots of pros and cons. I am learning a lot and also getting sick of it.
 
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