Monk's Bench (or Settle) FINISHED

[kirkpoore1]

Day-um! What a place! I've never seen linenfold with points projecting like that. Could you tell by looking at the grain whether the central section was a separately carved and then attached piece? It's pretty highly stylized, so I bet it's fairly late.

These panels though:

I bet these are much earlier. Simple, straightforward, realistic.

As far as the linenfold being carved green, I seriously doubt it. I can't tell if they're quartersawn or flat sawn, but there were water powered sawmills by the 16th century and they may have just sawed up planks and let them air dry before moving them to site and starting to do the paneling. Apprentice-work to flatten with a scrub plane and a jack plane, and then the master would move in and lay them out and the journeyman do most of the planing with plow, rabbet, hollow, and round planes. Cut to final length, then the master does the clean up and the end carving. I _think_ it would have been done on site to ensure proper fitting.

This chest probably predates the house:

This one is probably 15th century, maybe early 15th century.

Great pictures, great place.

Kirk

 

[Phil]

Thanks for posting Paul.

Great pics. The furniture has character which is seldom seen now days.


Phil

 

[MJ80]

Lovely stuff.
I really like the flat panelling in the hall, it has the same detail as Bolsover Castle with the lower rail having a chamfer instead of a mould. I really like it. Do you have any idea why the did it this way?

 

[Rod]

Nice pics - I see their site is using the Broadchurch connection.

Rod

 

[Pinch]

How on earth did the points on those linen folds last for so long without breaking off.

On some of the wall panels I notice that some of the muntins have pegged joints where they join to the rails amd stiles. Will you be doing something similar on the bench with perhaps the pegs in walnut to match the arm rests ?

Cheers Andy. I know, it's amazing they've lasted so long.

Yes indeed, the MT's will be drawbore with walnut pins. It would be sacrilege not to.

:text-bravo:

 

[Pinch]

Just look at the ceiling in that bedroom! Superb.

As for the linenfold panels being made green............I wonder if they could have been rough-carved green, cramped up for a year or so to season, then finished off. The way that turners work with green wood. It would certainly make the basic shaping, carving and scraping easier, but they'd be split and twisted horribly if fixed in place green.

Cheers Mike. Indeed, superb.

I don't know, could be a good theory. I still find it difficult to understand the reasons why though. From green to seasoned, whether they started when green or not, they still wouldn't be able to fit until the wood had seasoned, so why not wait until the wood has seasoned. My only thinking (which is what you're referring to I think) is wood can be easier to work when green. Hmmmm... I shall research this one.

 

[Pinch]

Day-um! What a place! I've never seen linenfold with points projecting like that. Could you tell by looking at the grain whether the central section was a separately carved and then attached piece? It's pretty highly stylized, so I bet it's fairly late.

These panels though:

I bet these are much earlier. Simple, straightforward, realistic.

As far as the linenfold being carved green, I seriously doubt it. I can't tell if they're quartersawn or flat sawn, but there were water powered sawmills by the 16th century and they may have just sawed up planks and let them air dry before moving them to site and starting to do the paneling. Apprentice-work to flatten with a scrub plane and a jack plane, and then the master would move in and lay them out and the journeyman do most of the planing with plow, rabbet, hollow, and round planes. Cut to final length, then the master does the clean up and the end carving. I _think_ it would have been done on site to ensure proper fitting.

This chest probably predates the house:

This one is probably 15th century, maybe early 15th century.

Great pictures, great place.

Kirk

"Day-um!" :lol:

Love it.

I'm saying "day-um" with an English accent and it sounds like I'm saying "Dam" with an American accent - brilliant. I'm hooked. From now on, it is day-um. bscene-drinkingcheers:

I think you're right Kirk, the highly decorating panelling must be much later, mid 18th century maybe. I think furniture took a turn for highly accurate and ornate detail around the mid 1700's.

That's a really good paragraph of information - nice one. I remember visiting a very old water powered saw mill years ago and they were certainly in use during the 1500's, possible before. I've never made a linenfold panel before, but I can't imagine them being difficult to do at all. And if I were to make a set, I would do exactly that... make all the folds etc through one length of wood, cut to length and then clean up and carve each end.

 

[Pinch]

Thanks for posting Paul.

Great pics. The furniture has character which is seldom seen now days.


Phil

Cheers Phil - pleasure matey.

 

[Pinch]

Lovely stuff.
I really like the flat panelling in the hall, it has the same detail as Bolsover Castle with the lower rail having a chamfer instead of a mould. I really like it. Do you have any idea why the did it this way?

Cheers MJ.

Day-um, that's a good question! It's a common detail, but why, I don't know. I tried to research this once before and I didn't get anywhere positive. The chamfers are normally on the top profile of the rails. I remember reading a paragraph about how these rooms used to condensate due to open fires, cold temperatures etc, and the chamfer was a good aid to allow the moisture to run off or be wiped off the panelling. Maybe some one can expand on this detail?

 

[Pinch]

Nice pics - I see their site is using the Broadchurch connection.

Rod

Cheers Rod. Yes, I noticed that as well. I didn't read up on it though. I shall go back and have a look.

Did you watch Broadchurch?

 

[Pinch]

For those who are not familiar with drawbore mortice & tenon joints... This method of jointing is ancient and still used today, especially in green oak construction and staircase joinery. The idea was to pull the joint tightly closed by using a wooden pin through the mortice and tenon. The hole through the tenon would be slightly offset to the hole through the mortice and the pin would be hammered through the holes which pull the joint tight. It's also an effective application without the use of glue when working with green timbers. I shall be using this ancient joint throughout the panelling of the bench.

 

[kirkpoore1]

For those who are not familiar with drawbore mortice & tenon joints... This method of jointing is ancient and still used today, especially in green oak construction and staircase joinery. The idea was to pull the joint tightly closed by using a wooden pin through the mortice and tenon. The hole through the tenon would be slightly offset to the hole through the mortice and the pin would be hammered through the holes which pull the joint tight. It's also an effective application without the use of glue when working with green timbers. I shall be using this ancient joint throughout the panelling of the bench.

Pinch, please go into detail when you do this the first time. Ive tried drawboring and have never been really successful with it. Either not tight enough, or blowing out the backside of the mortise.

BTW, saying it day-um in a standard American accent means that you're talking like an Arkansas hillbilly.

Kirk

 

[Pinch]

Pinch, please go into detail when you do this the first time. Ive tried drawboring and have never been really successful with it. Either not tight enough, or blowing out the backside of the mortise.

BTW, saying it day-um in a standard American accent means that you're talking like an Arkansas hillbilly.

Kirk

No probs, will do. I've also splintered out in the past - easily done. The offset hole in the tenon only needs to be a tiny bit offset otherwise the pin/peg will struggle to push through the other side and more than not, splinter the face side wood as a result. The pin also needs to be graduated to the required diameter and not too tight, but tight enough. It is a tricky one though and I've broken pins in the past because I've either offset the hole too much or the pin is slightly too thick for the hole.

I used to watch an American car restoration programme based in Texas and the owner of the company always said 'day-um' when he saw something he really liked. Next week, I shall get all the chaps on the farm saying "day-um, that's good!"

:text-bravo:

 

[AndyP]

Does the hole have to go all the way through the mortice piece?

When I pegged the M&Ts in an oak table, where the rails joined the legs, I just used off the shelf dowel from one of sheds, ramin I think. The legs are 3.5" thick and I think I only went 2/3rds of the way through with the hole.

Over the years the oak has shrunk leaving all of the pegs ever so slightly proud. Is this always going to happen with that type of joint?
When timber framing I know that the pegs are left proud deliberately so that the joint can be tightened up over the years as the wood dries out.

 

[Pinch]

Does the hole have to go all the way through the mortice piece?

When I pegged the M&Ts in an oak table, where the rails joined the legs, I just used off the shelf dowel from one of sheds, ramin I think. The legs are 3.5" thick and I think I only went 2/3rds of the way through with the hole.

Over the years the oak has shrunk leaving all of the pegs ever so slightly proud. Is this always going to happen with that type of joint?
When timber framing I know that the pegs are left proud deliberately so that the joint can be tightened up over the years as the wood dries out.

Not always, but as the mid rails & muntins on the bench are 25x50PAR (19x44 finished size) (top rail & plaque are 25mm finished thickness), the pins will go all the way through. In some cases, they wouldn't, but the pins still need to engage the other side of the mortice for the joint to work successfully.

I shall make the pins for the bench using walnut and this can either be done with a dowel plate (bought or homemade) or by simply using the block plane which can be a tedious job. If your bore for example is going to be 6mm as it might be in this case, you can drill a 6mm hole through a scrap piece of mild steel and use this to make your pins. Obviously cut the pins square and slightly over 6mm, pare an end to a rough point using a chisel and then slowly tap the stock through the hole in the steel plate and a nice pin should come out the other side.

Yep, common feature... as the seasons go by, the wood will find it's own way with things (shrinking with the grain as opposed to against it), resulting in the pins ending up slightly proud to the stiles, rails etc. A bit like the end of a through mortice; the stile will shrink a bit exposing a proud tenon through the mortice. In time, this will become a smooth little bump and all part of the character when a piece of furniture starts the ageing process - lovely.

Incidentally, the inner joints to the panelling on the bench will be stubbed M&T's with one pin per joint. If the M&T was fairly wide, two pins would be favourable.

 

[Pinch]

Update: I haven't started yet..... :lol:

Due to start this coming week.

I thought I'd post up a detail which I shall clarify with my clients during the week. The plaque is going to include some letter carving and there are two styles I'm thinking of... this one is cutting one gradient from a datum as shown in the drawing below. I'm going to prepare a couple of samples for the clients and see which one they prefer.

This is close to what the plaque will look like.

And here is how I might carve it.

I'll report back in the week with some actual samples.

Thoughts are welcome.

 

[Tusses]

I'm just designing (in my head) something similar , but with pairs of zodiac signs rather than letters.
one thing that I consider, is how do you decide which bits overlap and which underlap ?

I'm left handed, and I don't know if I see things (in my head ) differently to others ?

Should be a nice detail anyhoo

 

[AndyP]

Now that gives me an idea Paul. I know that I will not make as good a job of it as you but it will be fun trying. Will you be using specialist carving chisles for this? Or ordinary carpenters chisels? I hope you will have time for a detailed how to for this.

If you do a sample that is not used can I have first dibs?

 

[Pinch]

I'm just designing (in my head) something similar , but with pairs of zodiac signs rather than letters.
one thing that I consider, is how do you decide which bits overlap and which underlap ?

I'm left handed, and I don't know if I see things (in my head ) differently to others ?

Should be a nice detail anyhoo

Cheers Rich. How are things going matey?

A pair of zodiac signs sounds very interesting and I imagine rather tricky to do - which signs are you doing? The above design is my client's idea although I've tweaked it slightly. They were thinking about using their names but Ukrainien names tend to be rather long, so the initials were favourite. I guess the overlapping could work either way. I haven't thought about left or right handed - hmmm :eusa-think:

 

[Pinch]

Now that gives me an idea Paul. I know that I will not make as good a job of it as you but it will be fun trying. Will you be using specialist carving chisles for this? Or ordinary carpenters chisels? I hope you will have time for a detailed how to for this.

If you do a sample that is not used can I have first dibs?

Cheers Andy. Ah very good chap! It will be very cool to see what you do. I've done some letter carving here n there over the years and it isn't difficult to do. Like all carving, having an eye for what you're creating is a major positive and then it's just a matter of using the tools accurately and confidently. The first important task is getting the drawing right, and then chip away... Yes, normal bevelled/firmer chisels are useful and then a variety of carving chisels, even a knife & scalpel come in very handy.

I don't think I've been asked for a sample piece before, but yes indeed sir, your name is now on them - they're yours when I've done them. Once I've shown them on here, pm me your address and I will be very happy to post them to you.

:text-bravo:

 

[Pinch]

Update.........

I was hoping to post up some carved letter examples earlier in the week but I had a delay with a previous job and Mrs P went away on Wednesday leaving me with the dogs which has restricted my working day a bit. I managed to rough out an example as per drawing which looks awful and slightly embarrassing, so I’ve also roughed out a more traditional example - hope the clients likey.

The block type serif (as per drawing) isn’t going to work for this type of letter carving, although I felt confident it would have when working from just the outer lines, but it just doesn't look right and it's too chunky. The photos below show I've tried the idea as per drawing with working from one datum line and also working from both lines meeting in the centre and it’s not good. I’ve searched the internet but can’t find anything, which is actually confirming this typeface isn’t suitable for this type of carving – it’s definitely more suitable for high relief carving.

Here are both examples together - #1&2 (#1 is on the left and #2 is on the right).

This is #1 showing what I’ve tried to do. The white asterisk is where I've worked from the outer lines and the areas without an asterisk are where I've worked from both outer lines meeting in the middle. The white arrow shows a junction where I've tried to make it as close as possible and it looks awful, so I think it's going to be wise to form a break as shown here and much better in #2.

And here's #2.
This isn’t a finished article; I shall make the actual plaque with more care & accuracy. This is more of comparing options before I start on the plaque, and as I will carve the plaque before I make the panelling, I thought it a good idea to have a warm up and something to show the clients before preceeding. I've shot some photos at various angles to give an idea of how it looks with the light. .

I shall get on with some making next week and wait to hear what my clients think of the above proposal for the plaque.

:text-bravo:

 

[Pinch]

On yet another tragic and atrocious attack last night, I thought I'd come on here to share another update... Firstly, I'm glad to hear the PM now finally saying "enough is enough".


It seems I've got my wires crossed with the plaque. :eusa-doh:

The example below is close to what the clients would like their plaque to look like with the addition of the 2 and 5 each side of the letters. I automatically went with carving below the surface and knowing this style of font will be difficult to replicate, I now realise the clients would really prefer the carving in high relief as per example. I did steer away from this as there will potentially be a couple of spots vulnerable to breaking through general use over a period of time, but I guess this is the case with all sorts of carved details. So, I am now going to make the plaque as close to this as I can, with the exception of some of the peripheral detail.

 

[Pinch]

Finally made a start this week...

All the wide boards in the bench are made up of narrow pieces glued together to form the overall widths needed. Here are the sides and seat set out and marked up ready for biscuit jointing. I've taken a bit of care setting out the boards so they work well together visually and also checking the mating surfaces work well together, fine tuning with a trying plane and block plane as I go along....

Here's the biscuit cutter ready for the router and depth established. There are three separate guides for this cutter to suit a gauged biscuit.

All the joints are cut and ready for glue assembly...

And now in glue assembly for overnight cure.

I then carried out the same procedure for the base shelf and internal half shelf/vertical partition.

These pieces below will form the panels to the rear panelling feature of the bench. I've carefully biscuit jointed these too.

Guideline for routing.

And now ready for glue assembly.

And finally, here is the base shelf, inner shelf/partition and two of the panel straights in glue assembly for overnight cure.

After removing the sides and seat from their glue assemblies, I started the sanding process before moving onto the next stage of making.

I really like my new sanding station set up - works a treat. Here is one of the sides ready for sanding. I'm gently using an 80 grit at this initial stage to ensure the joints are absolutely flat & flush and any discrepancies removed. After this, I'll then sand with a 120/180/240g finally finishing with a hand applied 400g.

First stage of sanding to the sides and seat now complete. I shall carry out this procedure to all pieces before moving on.

In preparation of the panelling, I'm giving the clients a few profiling options for the rails, stiles and muntins. I've prepared three different profiles from my router cutter box selection...

Ovolo family, scotia and chamfer. I'll be forming a small chamfer to all the external edges of the sides and seat, so the clients might go with a chamfer for the panelling as well, or perhaps a slight contrast.

Here's the ovolo with two pieces of wood simulating panels to give a flavour. The panels will of course be grooved into the rails etc.

Now the scotia profile...

And finally the chamfer profile...

I can't say which one is my personal favourite - I think any of these will work very well indeed.

I'm back in the shop tomorrow.

Report back soon...

Cheers,

:text-bravo:

 

[Phil]

Nice progress Paul.

I prefer the ovolo, but as you say any of the three would look good.


Phil

 

[9fingers]

I'd be concerned with the scotia profile and the groove leaving a weak strip that could split off over time but I tend to over engineer things?
Bob

 

[Mike G]

I reckon the ovolo is too reminiscent of cheap kitchen units. Chamfer with a stop is my preference.

 

[AndyP]

I did wonder if the medieval carpenters has access to hollows and rounds in order to make the curved mouldings and in trying to find out I came across this blog.

http://thomasguild.blogspot.fr/search/l ... date=false
This particular blog post might be relevant. http://thomasguild.blogspot.fr/search/label/settle That Chateau is only about an hour from here. I must may it a visit.

Some fascinating stuff in there.

Might be of interest to Kirk and others.

 

[Pinch]

Nice progress Paul.

I prefer the ovolo, but as you say any of the three would look good.


Phil

Cheers Phil - interesting choice.

 

[Pinch]

I'd be concerned with the scotia profile and the groove leaving a weak strip that could split off over time but I tend to over engineer things?
Bob

Cheers Bob Yes, good point, although it doesn't concern me.

 

[Pinch]

I reckon the ovolo is too reminiscent of cheap kitchen units. Chamfer with a stop is my preference.

Cheers Mike Hmmm yes, I didn't think of that. I think the chamfer is more in keeping of the time.

 

[Pinch]

I did wonder if the medieval carpenters has access to hollows and rounds in order to make the curved mouldings and in trying to find out I came across this blog.

http://thomasguild.blogspot.fr/search/l ... date=false
This particular blog post might be relevant. http://thomasguild.blogspot.fr/search/label/settle That Chateau is only about an hour from here. I must may it a visit.

Some fascinating stuff in there.

Might be of interest to Kirk and others.

Cheers Andy Fabulous link - thanks for posting this. I'll go in and have a better look in a bit. The old carpenters of the time put us modern chaps to shame with their amazing hand tool skills.

 

[Pinch]

I remembered I had another chamfer cutter in the shop, only more shallow to the 45 degree cutter. This one can be used for either 60 or 30 degree applications. I'm thinking of using the 45 on the bench and plaque, and then the 30 on the panelling, but I'll have to get confirmation first. Here is a sample...

I've now sanded the work to 180g today and marked/cut the sides to their basic shape. These are now very slightly different to the drawing because I've deepened the bench a little bit and the circular heads of the sides were looking too small. I'm really pleased with this proportion - looks just the job, especially when the external edges are cleaned and then chamfered, plus the trefoils and profiled rail feet - not forgetting the walnut armrests. They will be very pleasing to the eye. Also, when preparing the original drawing, I wanted to avoid a straight forward continuous curve which would be easier for routing the chamfer, but not as effective as this way. This way will show a definite mitre crease at the junctions of where the curves meet. I shall take the router so far and then finish off using a sharp chisel to form that crease - nice.

Here is where I'm currently at...

Back on it Monday morning.

:text-bravo:

 

[Malc2098]

Back from the sun on my back in Lake Garda. Lovely work to come back to look at.

 

[Pinch]

Cheers Malc - hope you had a good trip.

 

[Pinch]

Okedokey... been on the bench again today and the sides are pretty much finished apart from a check over and clean up.

After cutting the shapes with the jigsaw, I then clamped the sides together and cleaned up the external edges using a variety of hand tools. Here are the sides ready to go in the vice.

I used these hand tools for this operation, including spokeshaves, block plane, chisels, small square, scraper and sand paper.

After the edges were good, I then marked out for the trefoils - centre lines divided into thirds of 360 degrees which is 120 degrees to each segment. Some might say these are up side down and some will say they're the right way up and some will say they need to be tilted, but this depends on what it's symbolising. I guess they can be either way you fancy.

After drilling the holes, I was ready to router the chamfers. As I've made the heads of the sides slightly larger than the drawings (as explained above in a previous post), and when I prepared the drawings, I worked to a 38mm bit for boring the trefoil holes, so, I decided to plunge the chamfer cutter deep into the bores to the point of forming a quirk and also creating a larger diameter, compensating for the larger diameter of the heads.

It's worked out beautifully, and not forgetting, there's the rear panelled back to go on yet.
Here, I've also chamfered the external edges as well.

Here, you can see a close up of the nice little mitre crease where the curves meet - nice little touch.

Left hand (I will scrape out that little burn mark).

Right hand.

The next stage is joining the seat and base shelf to the sides. During the design stages, I gave the clients a couple of jointing options and they're going with option 'A' shown below.

I might do these joints slightly different to what I've drawn - all good stuff.

Report back soon.
Cheers,

 

[Mike G]

I know just how much work goes into cleaning up curves like that, particularly when they've been cut with a jigsaw. It's really hard to keep everything looking crisp, but you seem to have achieved that. Great stuff Paul.

 

[Pinch]

Cheers Mike - indeed, very time consuming. In fact, looking at the last couple of pictures, the lines don't quite look right, but I know they are in the flesh - must be the photos.

 

[AndyP]

Cracking progess Pinch. I've only done trefoils one and it was heart in mouth routing the edges. Those look very smooth.

 

[Rod]

Looking good

Rod

 

[Jimmy Mack]

Really clean work Paul, the Trefoils came out beautiful... I'd have probably burnt the carp out of the end grain! :eusa-doh:

Looking forward to the next instalment. :eusa-clap:

Jim