New water stone

[Ayreon]

Up until now, I have always used the abrasive sheet on float glass sharpening method, my kit consisted of :

400/1000 Diamond stone
2500 lapping sheet https://www.axminstertools.com/hermes-s ... rit-951277
8000 lapping sheet https://www.workshopheaven.com/3m-lappi ... o-psa.html
Leather and green compound for stropping

This has always given me a really sharp edge. I would keep the strop on my bench so I could frequently strop to keep an edge so I wouldn't have to go to the sheets so often.

This worked well for me. But the one thing I didn't like, was not knowing when the sheets needed replacing. So for christmas, I asked for a 1200/8000 waterstone as I like the idea that you're always exposing new material to work with.

Specifically this one https://www.worldofsurvival.com/sharpen ... gura-id179 (with Nagura stone)

I soaked it in water for 5 minutes, flattened with my diamond 1000 stone and began to use it. The 1200 side first and then the 8000 side (preping first with the Nagura stone to build up a slurry)

First impressions are that it cuts pretty fast. But after the 8000 side, it didn't leave a polished surface like I am used to with the 8000/3micron lapping sheet. It's a very coudy dull grey. But I didn't think anything of it as I know a polished surface doesn't necessarily mean sharp.

But having done some tests, it is noticably not as sharp as my previous method. It doesn't cut arm hair, and there is more resistance when cutting paper .. with my previous method, I could actually cut hair straight after using the 3 micron paper (before stropping).

However, with a lot of stropping, I can get it to cut hair, so all is not lost. But I was kind of hoping I would get similar results as my previous method. I appreciate the comparison between stone grit and micron is not exact.

Have others experienced the same thing?

 

[AndyP]

Hi Ayreon and welcome to the forum.

Never used a water stone myself but I am sure others here have.

 

[Lurker]

:text-welcomewave:

Due to sharpening being rather controversial, we try to avoid discussion of the various methods.
Whatever rocks your boat is fine with us.

 

[Woodster]

Welcome to the forum Ayreon. It’s good to keep an open mind and very temping to try something new in the search for perfection. On this occasion it seems your original method is superior. Perhaps best to clean off that new stone and pack it away somewhere?! :lol:

 

[Doug]

Hi Ayreon,

I’ve used similar lapping sheets to you for years now, they give me the edge I’m after as quick as anything else I’ve tried, if it works for you why change.

 

[Woodbloke]

Hi Ayreon,

I’ve used similar lapping sheets to you for years now, they give me the edge I’m after as quick as anything else I’ve tried, if it works for you why change.

:text-+1: They work, why change? Over the decades I've used just about everything and the 3M films float my boat - Rob

 

[Ayreon]

Cheers guys.

Why change? well, as I mentioned, I find it difficult to know when the sheets need changing. I find they work very well for a few weeks and then they gradually seem to wear down and tend to polish more than cut. Having a new surface each time you flatten on waterstones appealed to me.

Plus there was also the cost thing.

And then finally, I guess I just wanted to try something else to see if it was any better.

But the purpose of the thread was mostly to see if others are achieving a better edge than me with a 8k stone. Perhaps there was something I was doing wrong.

 

[Woodster]

Nothing wrong with wanting to try something new, and your reasoning seems valid. It may be the stone you have is not as good as some others out there but without a response from other users of similar stones you’ll never know. Maybe do a Google for reviews? Let us know if you find anything interesting. It probably won’t help me much as I rarely do flat work but it may help others

 

[TrimTheKing]

I’ve got Ice Bear stones, 800 for sharpening and 10000 for polishing and I get my blades (chisel and plane) sharp enough to shave hairs off my arm so it could just be a practice/technique thing mate.

 

[Dr.Al]

I was avoiding commenting just because it's a sharpening thread and we all know what happens with those!
However I've also got the 8000 ice bear stone and I get a mirror finish that shaves hairs easily too, so it does sound like there's something wrong with technique or perhaps you've got a duff stone.

Just reading another note you included: I don't bother soaking the 8000 stone - I just spray with water and that seems to work fine. From what I've read, the coarser stones need soaking but once you get to the fine ones the water doesn't penetrate very far so soaking is pointless (I might be wrong about that, but it certainly seems to work for me). I now use a 300ish/1000ish diamond stone for "roughing" and the 8000 water stone for finishing (note for the moderators that I'm not commenting on how this compares to other approaches :eusa-dance: ). I switched from the coarser waterstones to save the hassle of soaking.

 

[Andy Kev.]

I know you've asked for advice on water stones, so this might seem a bit off topic as, having used water stones, I switched to a double sided DMT diamond stone (fine and super fine) and it does just as good a job as the water stones did. It does however, have certain advantages. The main one is that it can never get out of true and need flattening as a water stone does and secondly, because I use it with lapping fluid, no water gets near blades.

My water stones did a fine job but I was happy to give them to a friend who was just starting up. The bottom line IMO is that the double sided diamond stone is a simpler way of getting the same high grade results.

 

[Lurker]

:eusa-naughty: :eusa-naughty:

 

[TomTrees]

I've also found this cloudy appearance with the one Japanese waterstone I have (a king 4000g)
but have noticed a most hair popping edge which I have only achieved by stropping before.
Does seem rougher than a real worn in Dia sharp 4000 hone I use.

Hard to describe the difference, as honed on the diamond will shave also, maybe better, but I haven't got that down if it does, and can strop if I want that edge.
https://youtu.be/Jix5SDsfS5I?t=31

Never used a nagura, could it be that this is grading the stone to a courser state?
Does folk grade their naguras?

Although even then, I'd imagine that that edge being courser would still be very effective regarding shaving a bit of hair.

 

[Woodster]

I know you've asked for advice on water stones, so this might seem a bit off topic as, having used water stones, I switched to a double sided DMT diamond stone (fine and super fine) and it does just as good a job as the water stones did. It does however, have certain advantages. The main one is that it can never get out of true and need flattening as a water stone does and secondly, because I use it with lapping fluid, no water gets near blades.

My water stones did a fine job but I was happy to give them to a friend who was just starting up. The bottom line IMO is that the double sided diamond stone is a simpler way of getting the same high grade results.

That sounds good. Do you have a link to the DMT you use please?

 

[Ayreon]

It's combination stone, 1200 and 8000 which is why I was soaking it instead of just spraying it.

https://www.worldofsurvival.com/sharpen ... gura-id179

I'm not really sure what I could be doing wrong then? :?

I'll try to take some pictures.

 

[Alf]

Aside from the joy of bald patches on your arms, wouldn't a more pertinent test be to see how your edge cuts wood? i.e. Is it good enough to do the job? In which case, why worry further? All is happiness and you may safely move onto the tree torture which is, iirc, the fun bit.

 

[Ayreon]

Aside from the joy of bald patches on your arms, wouldn't a more pertinent test be to see how your edge cuts wood? i.e. Is it good enough to do the job? In which case, why worry further? All is happiness and you may safely move onto the tree torture which is, iirc, the fun bit.

I was also testing with cutting paper. Which I find a lot easier to gauge than cutting through wood which of course has far more variables.

If there wasn't much of a difference I wouldn't really mind. But it was notably less sharp.

 

[Andy Kev.]

I know you've asked for advice on water stones, so this might seem a bit off topic as, having used water stones, I switched to a double sided DMT diamond stone (fine and super fine) and it does just as good a job as the water stones did. It does however, have certain advantages. The main one is that it can never get out of true and need flattening as a water stone does and secondly, because I use it with lapping fluid, no water gets near blades.

My water stones did a fine job but I was happy to give them to a friend who was just starting up. The bottom line IMO is that the double sided diamond stone is a simpler way of getting the same high grade results.

That sounds good. Do you have a link to the DMT you use please?

Here you go:

https://www.dictum.com/en/dmt-eah/dmt-d ... ine-706294

What's really good about it is that it is long and also the fact that the magnetic holder holds it really firmly.

 

[AJB Temple]

Not all stones are equal in my experience. I have collected Japanese kitchen knives in the past, single and double bevel, learnt sharpening in Japan. As well as natural stones I've used various combination stones, as well as King, Shapton glass, and Naniwa over the past 20 years. They all behave differently and I find that combination stones are often not that good in terms of composition consistency. I gave mine away.

Many stones are not meant to be soaked. Especially in fine grits this can lead to surface cracking. My primary stones that I use today are Naniwa plus a strop. I have 400, 1000, 2000, 5000, 7000, 8000 white, 12000 blue and 15000 black. From around 1000 to 8000 is a big jump and hard work.

For kitchen work I can get a knife plenty sharp enough to fine slice a tomato with it just resting on the board using two stones and the strop, and for touch ups the stone I use almost daily is the 2000. The very fine stuff is to get mirror polishing and you don't need them.

In the workshop I use decent quality diamond plates. Easy to wash and no faffing around. I will grind on the linisher if necessary. I don't really let edges get blunt, as that just makes work restoring them.

Most of the time when people get bad results on a water stone, it is because they have the angle wrong (usually cutting behind the edge) or are rocking the blade in the back and forth motion. Pay attention to this and pretty much any abrasive works fine.

 

[Alf]

Aside from the joy of bald patches on your arms, wouldn't a more pertinent test be to see how your edge cuts wood? i.e. Is it good enough to do the job? In which case, why worry further? All is happiness and you may safely move onto the tree torture which is, iirc, the fun bit.

I was also testing with cutting paper. Which I find a lot easier to gauge than cutting through wood which of course has far more variables.

If there wasn't much of a difference I wouldn't really mind. But it was notably less sharp.

So you're trying to achieve a level of "sharp" and the woodworking is incidental? Ah, not my forte, but you'll probably enjoy the late Brent Beach's work.

 

[Ayreon]

Aside from the joy of bald patches on your arms, wouldn't a more pertinent test be to see how your edge cuts wood? i.e. Is it good enough to do the job? In which case, why worry further? All is happiness and you may safely move onto the tree torture which is, iirc, the fun bit.

I was also testing with cutting paper. Which I find a lot easier to gauge than cutting through wood which of course has far more variables.

If there wasn't much of a difference I wouldn't really mind. But it was notably less sharp.

So you're trying to achieve a level of "sharp" and the woodworking is incidental? Ah, not my forte, but you'll probably enjoy the late Brent Beach's work.

Well, I was just comparing how sharp of an edge I was getting with the new stone to what I was getting with the abrasive. i.e can the edge from the new stone still do what I was getting before. Trying to judge that on wood is pretty hard. Where as 'can it cut arm hair' which is a yes or no answer is easier.

 

[AJB Temple]

The real knife nuts have variations on the paper test too. Hold the paper sheet out with the edge almost horizintal. Shave off a strip of about one mm. If the knife edge will do that easily with almost no resistance then it is sharp.

Life is too short and for woodwork all I do for plane blades, chisels etc is quick touch on the diamond, few strokes on a strop (old belt glued to wood) and crack on with the woodwork.

In Japan I have witnessed planing competitions where they will take a shaving the width of the plane (about 2 inches) off an 8ft length of maple. The shaving has to be one piece and transparent. Being Japan it is all on the pull stroke. That is for the sharpening and planing obsessives. :lol:

 

[Woodbloke]

Life is too short and for woodwork all I do for plane blades, chisels etc is quick touch on the diamond, few strokes on a strop (old belt glued to wood) and crack on with the woodwork.

Yep, totally agree and that in essence is all you really, actually need to do. I use the 3M films but it's essentially the same process; if the blade catches on my thumb nail (as opposed to skidding along it) after the strop, it's good enough for woodmangling and that's what's important - Rob

 

[Ayreon]

I'd agree with chisels. As long as I can slice the end grain, I'm happy. As then I can clean up parts of my joinery with little pressure and mostly without the need for a mallet. I prefer doing it without a mallet as it gives me more control.

But when it comes to planes I'm really looking to get the sharpest edge I can. Not only to get a good finish, but to reduce the chances of tear out, which can really ruin a piece. And I feel that if it can't cut paper effortlessly, it's not sharpen enough. I don't need to take to the wood to find that out.

 

[AJB Temple]

If you want ultra sharp on a robust blade, you will need to start looking at the different steels available. Spendy. Law of diminishing returns applies. Good luck.

 

[Cabinetman]

"I'd agree with chisels. As long as I can slice the end grain, I'm happy. As then I can clean up parts of my joinery with little pressure and mostly without the need for a mallet. I prefer doing it without a mallet as it gives me more control."
I have for the sake of everyone else deliberately not commented on this thread up to now but this is a different tack.
Interesting, I find I can get much better control by using a mallet, very small taps if that’s all it needs, without the mallet there is a good chance that just pushing will push the chisel too far sometimes. Easy enough to push not so easy to stop. What does anybody else think? Ian

 

[droogs]

I use Ultex double sided diamond plates "stones", a 300/600; 1k/1200 and then follow up with a bit of rouge on a leather strop for 90% of the edge tools I use. This includes planes, knives, router bits and almost all my chisels. There are 2 types of tool exceptions to this and they are finished off using a 3k/8k waterstone, my 2 pairing chisels (yes I only have 2) 1 straight edge and 1 at a 30 Deg skew are the first and the 2nd are my craving chisels. For me these are the only tools I have ever found that need to be taken higher than 1200 grit.

I'm not looking to start a hyperactive rigorous debate about methods, this is purely from my experience over the last 30 years (off and on). I used to do all my sharpening with holders and jigs etc and now do most of my sharpening freehand. After all, I got into woodworking in the 80s when all the sharpening "discussions" really began. I've found over this time-frame that, it really does depend on the method and type of material you are using to sharpen with. Certain combinations work very well together and others suck. for me it is diamonds upto 1200 freehand with no double bevel just a gentle convex curve from top of the bevel to the edge with the edge being a little steeper than the majority of the bevel.

If you want to get a lovely polished finish then you really should be anal in your sharpening and go through each and every grit to do the job properly using the same type of material all the way to the end and then strop. However, if like me you are using mixed media then you will notice that when you switch from one to the other something happens; that nice shinny finish disappears after a couple of stokes on the new medium. This is due to the fact that each material cuts the metal differently and therefore each of the faces refracts light at different angles and gives this cloudy appearance.

I have found that for the last couple of grits it doesn't matter. Just give the edge a good 10 - 12 strokes and move up a grit once you have created a small wire burr on the back of the edge. Finish of with a strop and you are good to go. If you are looking to get a highly polished surface from you water stone, you will find the shininess is very dependent on how vigorous your stokes are during sharpening. IE they need to be done as if you were Vinn Diesel - fast and furious and held at the exact same angle consistently throughout in order to create the slurry needed to get that highly polished finish.

Be happy with the polished face from you diamond stones and concentrate on creating that wire burr at the edge of the tool using your waterstones, that is where the magic happens.

 

[Ayreon]

Thank you. I shall continue to experiement.