oak questions

[sunnybob]

I am going to be making a small table top for a bedside cabinet from 3 oak planks.
Each will be 750 mm x 120 x 15mm.
Whats the best way to join them?
Tongue and groove?
Glued spline?
Unglued spline?
Or any other SIMPLE method. Dont have biscuit or domino machine.
The top will be supported on all four sides, but at this stage no plans for middle support.

What is the best way to secure the top to the sides?
There will be a 20 mm overhang on front and sides.

Also, but not so important, I know oak and steel should not be mixed. but I have to screw the plywood back onto the oak legs. Is it OK to use the "brassed" steel screws?

 

[novocaine]

plane joint, no need for any mechanical connection between the boards the glue will be enough.

don't use steel screws, either us brass or stainless.

buttons, just like a table top or L brackets with slots for the screws.

 

[sunnybob]

The screws are at the back, holding the ply. Will the steel rot away quickly? Bear in mind I'm only interested in 10 years life of the cabinet. If it lasts 20 years it will be someone else's problem :lol: :lol:

I really like the look of the sanded oak, much more than when its been coated with poly. Is there any method to keep the silver grey appearance?

 

[sunnybob]

What about turning alternate boards over? I have seen that mentioned a lot.

 

[TrimTheKing]

The oak tannins will eat the screws very quickly.

Depending how the board are cut for the top, assuming crown cut, you will want to alternate the face surfaces so that any movement is equalled out.

 

[sunnybob]

mark, you lost me.
Crown cut?

 

[novocaine]

Across the ring pattern.
Flip them smiley face sad face.

Not only eat the screws but leave black stains with steel.

 

[TrimTheKing]

As Dave says, crown cut is the grain pattern on the left of this diagram and quartersawn (most stable) is the one third from left.

 

[Mike Jordan]

For oak to seriously corrode the screws you need moisture. A bedside cabinet must be made of oak with a low moisture content (10%) so there is no need to worry. If it was a garden gate you were making it would be a different story. Well made butt joints with or without a spline will serve but splines that stop short of the ends would be stronger.

 

[spb]

As Dave said, just glue the boards edge to edge; it'll be just as strong as any fancy connection.

For attaching the top, the traditional method is to cut either a set of slots or a continuous groove on the inside face of your aprons, then cut small blocks with a tongue that engages into that groove, and screw those blocks to the top. That'll hold it in place while allowing movement as necessary.

 

[novocaine]

For oak to seriously corrode the screws you need moisture. A bedside cabinet must be made of oak with a low moisture content (10%) so there is no need to worry. If it was a garden gate you were making it would be a different story. Well made butt joints with or without a spline will serve but splines that stop short of the ends would be stronger.

Bob lives in Cyprus where humidity ranges from 1 million to 10 million.

it's going to get fecked.

 

[Mike G]

They're very thin boards for a table top, Bob. You're going to need to choose your wood very carefully. If it isn't quarter sawn, I'd consider ripping it again into narrower staves, so there is less potential for cupping in each piece. Then, as has been said, alternate the end-grain pattern. Not only is there no need for anything in the joins between boards, at 15mm there isn't really room anyway.

Stainless, brass, or possibly black Japanned screws, not ordinary steel. The risk with steel is too high, and in particular, you might end up with a nasty black/ grey/ blue stain around each one in a matter of months if it is humid. It would be years before the screws actually disintegrated to the point where they aren't doing their job any more, but long before that the piece of furniture would be showing nasty stains.

 

[Mike Jordan]

I've never been to Cyprus but most of my work goes into boats where the moisture levels soar and plunge and have had no problems. Brass screws snap very easily in oak even if you form the hole with a steel screw first. If you are worried, stainless screws will definitely work but you need 316 marine grade, other grades are as weak as brass.
The screws shown are BZP I think and they have been in European oak in exactly the use you mention for over twenty years.
Based on the fact than it doesn't turn your hands black like English oak I am certain that there is much less acid content in European oak

 

[sunnybob]

I appreciate that the planks / staves /sticks / whatever are only 15 mm, but its a bedside set of two vertical drawers that are only 700 x 300 mm so I dont see any weight loading issues.
I am / was concerned about warping and cupping, it seems a simple butt joint will do over those distances provided I take care over the grain direction.

I actually may have some stainless marine grade screws in my odds and sodds drawer bit I suspect they will be too big for this purpose. Since living here though I have never seen brass screws.
Appearance isnt an issue with these as they are securing the ply back to the oak legs, so the staining would have to work its way along the screw for it be visible. As long as the strength isnt affected I shall leave well alone.
I never understand humidity.
in summer when its pushing 40c, it can be fine outdoors, but stepping into the house(with all the doors and windows wide open), it gets sweaty very very quickly.

Of course the wood I use is at ambient humidity and temps, but then if its a bedroom piece, it gets air conned to death every night by the visitors, and then back to ambient during the day. So far, I havent seen any deterioration due to this.

 

[Mike G]

....its a bedside set of two vertical drawers that are only 700 x 300 mm so I dont see any weight loading issues.......

Yeah, there's absolutely no strength issue. The thinness thing is about both looks and cupping. Thin material is just more prone to cupping than thick stuff.

 

[Woodbloke]

I never understand humidity.
in summer when its pushing 40c, it can be fine outdoors, but stepping into the house(with all the doors and windows wide open), it gets sweaty very very quickly.

Of course the wood I use is at ambient humidity and temps, but then if its a bedroom piece, it gets air conned to death every night by the visitors, and then back to ambient during the day. So far, I havent seen any deterioration due to this.

Reading that last bit, you could be on a hiding to nowt with crown cut, fairly thin boards. What with drastic ac at night and 'normal' conditions in the daytime, your oak ain't going to like it one little bit. Were it moi, I'd slice it up thinner and veneer it over some mrmdf, but I fancy that's not an option you've got SB - Rob

 

[sunnybob]

See, this where it gets weird.
We bought with us from England a whole batch of oak furniture. large Sideboard, glass fronted display, dining table and chairs. Nest of coffee tables. Small bedside tables. All now about 20 years old with 13 of them here. This was oak furniture land stuff, nothing truly expensive. No problems so far.
Since being here we have a large picket fence oak headboard in a guest bedroom, and I know a couple of my guests go bonkers with the A/c and set it at 18 or even lower And THEN pull the bedclothes over them to get warm :shock: :shock: W.T.F. is that all about?
Anyway, no sign of any problems with any of this oak either.
This set of drawers will be in the same bedroom as the two headboards I have just made. In a normal year the room would be used for about 10 weeks a year with A/c on at night times.

 

[sunnybob]

Just realised I am going to need a PLAN B.
I have one piece of oak left for the top. Its 120 mm x 50 mm.
I am not going to get 3 x 15 mm pieces out of it even with thin kerf blade in the table saw.
I would be lucky to get 12 mm, more likely 10mm once fully sanded, which even I realise is too thin.

So plan B would be a top in 9 mm ply, with 120 mm wide strips of oak glued to it.
Would that be feasible if I cut say 5mm or 6 mm thick slices and glued them to the ply?
That way I would have enough to edge the top as well.
I'm not going to spend out on another plank of oak, regardless.

 

[Woodbloke]

So plan B would be a top in 9 mm ply, with 120 mm wide strips of oak glued to it.
Would that be feasible if I cut say 5mm or 6 mm thick slices and glued them to the ply?
That way I would have enough to edge the top as well.
I'm not going to spend out on another plank of oak, regardless.

If you can go down to 3mm you’re into proper veneer county SB and that would give you more oak for the rest of the project. Use any method at your disposal to get enough weight onto the job to get a decent pressing. If push comes to shove, grab a few bucketfuls of lovely sand from the beach and put it into plastic bags. It don’t matter...whatever it takes to get the pressure on the veneer - Rob

 

[Lons]

a couple of my guests go bonkers with the A/c and set it at 18 or even lower

18 deg :shock: our house doesn't get to that with the heating on full blast, nights are well into minus figures with a window always open even in the depths of winter. I do occasionally close the widow but only if the curtains are blowing horizontal.

 

[sunnybob]

Hah! they dont call me daft for nothing!
I live on an unfinished building site. I'm surrounded by sand. I've carried tons of it around a bucket at a time. Did I ever think once of using it for a weight? :eusa-clap: :eusa-clap: :eusa-clap:

Lons,
The older I get the narrower the temperature band I'm comfortable with.
In the evenings about now it gets down to single figures outside. I watch that C/H thermostat like a hawk. The minute it goes below 20.5 c I turn it on. Its only set to reach 22c, but theres a world of discomfort in that one and a half degree colder.

Of course, as I've mentioned a few times, I have no upper limit to a nice temperature, right up till I melt into a puddle of fat and bones.
But the air con thing really winds me up. Theyre 5 kw consumption each. When somebody runs the room down to 18 or even 14 (my own son!) when its 38 outside is a huge expense. Then they put pyjamas on and ask for a duvet! :shock: :shock:
Of course, next morning all that cold air goes straight out the open windows, until its evening, and then the room is all closed up and the a/c works overtime to get the room back down again.
I'm considering doing like a lot of short term rented houses do now and putting a slot meter in each room just for the A/C. :lol:
Mr grumpy, thats me.

 

[Lons]

I'm with you Bob but my missus doesn't much like heat, the thermostat is set at 20 deg but it's reading 2 deg high and my wife won't have it even though I bought 3 thermometers and sited them to prove it she's still suspicious, if I could find a new thermostat that was guaranteed to read 2 deg low I'd buy one in a heartbeat. WOMEN!!

We were in Sydney once when it was 40 deg and had to leave the hotel because we were due to fly home late afternoon, I was fine but she insisted we went to the airport 3 hours early so we could sit around in A/C waiting areas. :eusa-doh: You could probably imagine what she was like on another occasion when we stayed overnight at Death Valley, record temps and no A/C in the cabin, just a ceiling fan. :lol:

 

[sunnybob]

Take the thing out of its cover and bend the needle.
If its digital, find the sensing bulb and wrap a bit of tape around it to act as a tea cosy.
:lol:
many digitals can be adjusted, find the manual and read the installation instructions. You know, the bit that REAL men dont need to look at.