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Quick question - drill bits

AJB Temple

AJB Temple

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I'm presently away briefly. Quick question: is anyone aware of drill bits that will go through laminate (birch ply mainly) from one side only and not cause break out on the other side?

I have a vast number of holes to drill in birch ply and some other laminates. For reasons of practicality I can't accurately mark both sides and drill from both directions. My usual approach is to use a small pilot drill right through and then go in from each side, but that is not very practical here either, nor is clamping on a backer. It is a lot of very awkward library style verticals for shelves that someone has already constructed and glued up and painted or varnished, without fitting the ferrules etc for pins. The Ferrule holes are 5.5mm to a depth of 5mm and the pin holes 5mm diameter straight through. Much too small for Forstner. I do have high quality brad point and engineering drill bits with me but they are not immune from break out in this material.

I know I have seen advertised online drill bits that don't break out, but now I can't find them. At the time the reviews I saw were sceptical.

Thanks. A
 
Just hold a scrap of timber on the opposite side to the drill this will prevent breakout, best if you can clamp or wedge the block of wood.
Plywood has voids so if you hit a pocket I doubt any drill bit will prevent breakout if you are drilling through what is unsupported wood.
 
Doug":2vu48xpb said:
Just hold a scrap of timber on the opposite side to the drill this will prevent breakout, best if you can clamp or wedge the block of wood.
Plywood has voids so if you hit a pocket I doubt any drill bit will prevent breakout if you are drilling through what is unsupported wood.
Click to expand...
AJB has just said he can't hold or clamp on a backer. The bits referred to I believe were the Star M thingies from Workshop Heaven - Rob
 
In my personal experience any drill will cause breakout if a backer isn't held tight against the back though of course some more prone than others and the sharper the drill the better.
I'm no expert though.
 
I’ve got a couple of Famag brad point bits, provided you go through the back slowly they leave a very clean exit hole.
 
Be aware that Workshop Heaven sell both “601 Precision” and “F-type” Star-M bits. It’s not clear to me from reading the descriptions which would be better for your application.
 
The F-type bits leave the cleanest exit holes of anything I've used, but I'm not sure they're available as small as 5mm; the smallest that WH stocks is 6mm. The 601 do exist in those sizes, and while I have no experience of them I'd think it's worth ordering one to try out.
 
Thanks guys. I've ordered the WH ones Star M 601 in both sizes. I can live with a tiny amount of break out as the ferrules will overlap the hole by about 0.7mm, but birch tends to split when the drill exits, if unsupported , rather than just give a rough edge.

Totally agree about clamping a scrap piece. Snag here is a) I don't have clamps deep enough to get to the back holes and b) the finish is incredibly vulnerable and very easy to mark when any pressure is applied by wedging (tried that yesterday). I did try easy peel masking tape as that won't affect the finish, but it doesn't work - just pushes off as the drill goes through. I have clamped the front holes with blotting paper and scrap MDF and that worked fine, but the back holes are really awkward to reach.

It's a very silly design and all of this should quite obviously have been done before assembly. (I didn't make or design it). There are wide shelves interspersed with very narrow sections. I'm using a small 12v Festool drill, but with the drill chuck on and a drill bit in it, and the alignment template there isn't anywhere near enough room to get in from one of the sides. I realise that right angle drills exist (like Festool quattro or whatever it's called) but I don't own one and there is no way I am buying one just for this. (It's a favour for an elderly person).

Thanks, A
 
May not work but it’s all I can think of, I think you said bookcases, how about a bit of sacrificial wood the same- ish length as the shelves lightly wedged into position to stop the tear out?
 
Hmm, that's actually an idea. Shall have a think about that to see if I can get something in place that won't mark. Maybe a felt covered strip on both sides and a sprung wedge between them. Almost all of the removable shelves are glass, and they will sit on little flat top metal pegs that go into metal tubular ferrules (which is what I am trying to fit). Sliding anything against the painted surface so far has marked it. There are 40 almost floor to ceiling vertical strips to get to with holes 50mm apart vertically. The awkward ones are narrow and are designed to hold ceramics, illuminated from above.

From further discussion it transpires that the painter (who is now on some other job) asked for the holes not to be drilled until after painting, so as to avoid runs. This was a really bad idea as they assembled and fixed everything before painting, not realising that there would be next to no access to fit the hardware in all the narrow parts. The painter was going to fit the hardware but found he couldn't do it. Break out is the worst of all worlds as it will require repair and re-painting. Big job and expensive.

With the template I made it ought to be a really quick job (its not paid - it's a friend) but the material is very prone to splintering out. Has to be dead on accurate - hence the template.
 
Just thinking out loud, but can you use a bucket load of masking tape to hold a small block of wood onto the back face of the piece? You'd have much more area of masking tape holding it down (so less likely to lift than just using masking tape over the exit point), but you'd have something fairly solid to drill into.
 
That’s a swine of a Job Adrian, even with a jig the chances of the glass not rocking on unevenly placed pegs are slim, and with glass it’s worse, no give and exposes any breakout.
The problem with adjustable shelving is that it isn’t, once fitted the shelves never ever move again, I would seriously consider nicely shaped varnished not painted wooden shelf supports screwed into place. YCMV.
( your client may vary) lol
 
Woodbloke":36mw2lxu said:
Doug":36mw2lxu said:
Just hold a scrap of timber on the opposite side to the drill this will prevent breakout, best if you can clamp or wedge the block of wood.
Plywood has voids so if you hit a pocket I doubt any drill bit will prevent breakout if you are drilling through what is unsupported wood.
Click to expand...
AJB has just said he can't hold or clamp on a backer. The bits referred to I believe were the Star M thingies from Workshop Heaven - Rob
Click to expand...

No Adrian said just clamping.
I often drill cabinet doors that are pre-finish when fitting handles, simply holding a block of wood with my hand on the back of the door is enough to prevent breakout, it is better clamped but not always practical.
 
Again, thanks guys, all very helpful and constructive.

Re holding a block in place - I tried that Doug. It's a good idea. Unfortunately I can't reach both sides well enough. My "client" friend is 94 and not capable of assisting. If the special bits don't work then I will see if my wife can help me at the weekend. I've made up some painters sticks (stick with foam and cloth tied on at the end - not sure of the proper name but artists use them as canvas rests when painting) to use as non damaging wedges.

Dr Al, the tape idea doesn't appeal. I've got hundreds to drill.

I agree that once loaded the shelves will probably never be adjusted. But the man in question has vetoed the idea of a more permanent or a more obtrusive fixing. It's his design and he wants it how he designed it. Fair enough. It will look really nice in the end. Also agree that getting glass shelves to sit dead level in these circumstances is tricky - but I made up a really good template which should be OK as it uses a thick piece of ply with a short length of brass tube in each hole to keep the drill straight. I will solve the breakout problem somehow. I thing Doug's idea coupled with my wife using the painter sticks as a lever will work. Thanks all.
 
AJB Temple":14jw8hvm said:
I've made up some painters sticks (stick with foam and cloth tied on at the end - not sure of the proper name but artists use them as canvas rests when painting) to use as non damaging wedges.
Click to expand...

Adrian

It's a mahl stick. Prob. kraut or dutch derivation.

C'mon, you should know that... :D

I sometimes use them.
 
Another thing to bear in mind is that if the finish on the exit holes is nearly-there-but-not-quite, sometimes just a couple of layers of masking tape on the exit side can stop relatively minor splintering from happening. Obviously it won't be nearly as effective as a solid backing if you're using 'messy' drill bits, but is a lot easier to put in place and remove and might be enough when used with one of the fancy bits.
 
Mahl. Oh yes. Senility approaching methinks.

Tape. Agree nothing to lose as an extra and much better than repair. Can't do much for a couple of days now until bits arrive. Wish I had never agreed to do this!
 
I guess another (albeit tedious) benefit of having tape there "just in case", is that if there's a bit of break-out, it might catch the broken out bit and make it easier to glue it back in.
 
Why has no-one mentioned vacuum bases (a la router) made out of clear acrylic and with cross hairs scraped and paint filled on the reverse? They don't have to be big, could be 2"x1", quick bit of metal tubing in the centre to act as a drill guide, Bob's yer Ma's brother!

Plonk one down in place, pull a quick vacuum with Da Boss's Dyson, drill, move on.
 
There are only two issues with a vacuum plate:

1. 'As any fule kno,' the slightest hint of using the Domestic Controller's Apparatus would be Way Too Risky.

2. If the Apparatus is a Dyson, it's unlikely to be functional. My mother-in-law used to own one of their uprights. Informed that it was broken and they were replacing it, I stupidly said I'd take a look at it first. Several hours later I had teased out the huge quantity of long hairs and general carp that had blocked up the miles of convoluted and unnecessary piping inside it. My mother-in-law, and at one point my wife, both had long hair (MiL continued the habit well into her eighties).

Despite it being largely restored to what Dyson considered functionality and my demonstrating ths, MiL went ahead and bought a second Dyson anyway (despite my protestations). It was every bit as goood as its predecessor.

I source some parts for the workshop DX system from my local independent Vacuum shop, and get on really well with the proprietor. Last time I went in, he had a row of Dyson cordless vacs lined up at the back. In answer to my obvious question, he said (with a large grin), "No, I don't sell them, but I do repair them!"
 
What if you were to drill a 1mm pilot hole, then used your 5mm drill bit in your hand to start the exit hole, just a few twists back and forth to break the surface.
 
Eric the Viking":evhajr8n said:
There are only two issues with a vacuum plate:

1. 'As any fule kno,' the slightest hint of using the Domestic Controller's Apparatus would be Way Too Risky.

2. If the Apparatus is a Dyson, it's unlikely to be functional. My mother-in-law used to own one of their uprights. Informed that it was broken and they were replacing it, I stupidly said I'd take a look at it first. Several hours later I had teased out the huge quantity of long hairs and general carp that had blocked up the miles of convoluted and unnecessary piping inside it. My mother-in-law, and at one point my wife, both had long hair (MiL continued the habit well into her eighties).

Despite it being largely restored to what Dyson considered functionality and my demonstrating ths, MiL went ahead and bought a second Dyson anyway (despite my protestations). It was every bit as goood as its predecessor.

I source some parts for the workshop DX system from my local independent Vacuum shop, and get on really well with the proprietor. Last time I went in, he had a row of Dyson cordless vacs lined up at the back. In answer to my obvious question, he said (with a large grin), "No, I don't sell them, but I do repair them!"
Click to expand...

Interesting to hear your experiences with the Dyson. While I'm definitely not a Dyson fan boy (the word I'd use to describe James Dyson would not be allowed through the forum filters), I'm on my second Dyson at the moment and both it and its predecessor have been excellent. Both were inherited from my parents when they decided to change vacuum cleaner after a number of years (I'm not sure how long they had each one). The first one lasted about 10 years for me (after its life at my parents' house) and finally failed when some plastic bits on the handle cracked. It was still usable, but my parents offered me their second Dyson as they'd decided to go for a smaller, cordless one. I've had the second one for 10 years so far (again, after its life at my parents house) and it's still going strong.

I doubt I'd ever buy a Dyson as they seem overpriced, but I have been very pleased with how long they've each lasted.
 
having replaced the battery on our cordless vacuum only to find out there is a built in failure mode in the control board that renders trickle charging and voltage monitoring to restart charging inoperable, I won't be buying another, I hate, HATE, designed in obsolescence.

as to what I think of Sir Dyson, it's about the same as I think of Edison, but with more poop.

as a vac it was alright, it's been replaced with a shark which doesn't have the same sucky power but does a grand job for all but the car (where I prefer to use the titan shop vac anyway).
 
Dr.Al":30m1qaxl said:
Interesting to hear your experiences with the Dyson. While I'm definitely not a Dyson fan boy (the word I'd use to describe James Dyson would not be allowed through the forum filters), I'm on my second Dyson at the moment and both it and its predecessor have been excellent. Both were inherited from my parents when they decided to change vacuum cleaner after a number of years (I'm not sure how long they had each one). The first one lasted about 10 years for me (after its life at my parents' house) and finally failed when some plastic bits on the handle cracked. It was still usable, but my parents offered me their second Dyson as they'd decided to go for a smaller, cordless one. I've had the second one for 10 years so far (again, after its life at my parents house) and it's still going strong.

I doubt I'd ever buy a Dyson as they seem overpriced, but I have been very pleased with how long they've each lasted.
Click to expand...

I think I’m with you, Dr Al, on the merits of Mr Dyson as a person. Or at least his public persona.

But… before you chuck out your vacuum cleaner, they are almost infinitely repairable. Or at least the older ones are. I have two DC04s, one clutched, one clutchless. Both probably over 20 years old. One new motor, and one now needs a brush retaining plate, but otherwise unscathed.

I have used https://shop.manchestervacs.co.uk for spares. Very helpful.
 
Tiresias":2mh8hxwc said:
Dr.Al":2mh8hxwc said:
Interesting to hear your experiences with the Dyson. While I'm definitely not a Dyson fan boy (the word I'd use to describe James Dyson would not be allowed through the forum filters), I'm on my second Dyson at the moment and both it and its predecessor have been excellent. Both were inherited from my parents when they decided to change vacuum cleaner after a number of years (I'm not sure how long they had each one). The first one lasted about 10 years for me (after its life at my parents' house) and finally failed when some plastic bits on the handle cracked. It was still usable, but my parents offered me their second Dyson as they'd decided to go for a smaller, cordless one. I've had the second one for 10 years so far (again, after its life at my parents house) and it's still going strong.

I doubt I'd ever buy a Dyson as they seem overpriced, but I have been very pleased with how long they've each lasted.
Click to expand...

I think I’m with you, Dr Al, on the merits of Mr Dyson as a person. Or at least his public persona.

But… before you chuck out your vacuum cleaner, they are almost infinitely repairable. Or at least the older ones are. I have two DC04s, one clutched, one clutchless. Both probably over 20 years old. One new motor, and one now needs a brush retaining plate, but otherwise unscathed.

I have used https://shop.manchestervacs.co.uk for spares. Very helpful.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that. I don't think I would have chucked out the older vacuum cleaner if it wasn't for the fact my parents offered me the newer one for free! I'll definitely try to keep the newer one going for as long as I can and repair it as required. That link looks useful, thanks.
 
Don't get me started on vacuum cleaners. Whilst a super helpful member here, who is well known for electric magic, kindly fixed our corded Miele, Mrs AJB T bought a cordless Vax as a stand in. Came with two batteries, which she thought was good. A vacuum cleaner has one job: sucking. It's not a good sucker. Made us feel like suckers for buying it. It also broke within 4 weeks (fractured dust collection unit) and they sent out a new one. So now we have 4 batteries and a lot of tools. The powered brush thing works until it gets a couple of hairs tangled in it. Then you have to take it apart and cut all the hairs off with scissors, which is a repulsive job.

I blame t'governmnt though. I think they brought in some rule that limited corded vacuums to 800 W or something (instead of 3000 for a good one). No idea why, but this enabled the cordless charlatans to claim their toys were as powerful as corded vacs.

The Miele is much better. My wife also thinks the big Festool vac is marvellous. Maybe the commercial vacs like this (it's the trade one that deals with very small fluff) are not power limited.
 
A friend repaired domestic electricals for a living. He told me he loved Dysons, they paid his wages. His advice - Henrys, and always with a bag.
W&D vacuums wattage doesn't appear to be limited - I've not long bought two £50, 1400w Scheppachs from Aldi to replace a £50 1400w Parkside from Lidl that died after a huge amount of abuse.
 
AJB Temple":go2hh49e said:
I blame t'governmnt though. I think they brought in some rule that limited corded vacuums to 800 W or something (instead of 3000 for a good one). No idea why, but this enabled the cordless charlatans to claim their toys were as powerful as corded vacs.
Click to expand...

While governments are responsible for many stupid decisions I believe you have the wrong perpetrator as in this case I understand it was an EU regulation which the UK had to comply with.

We have several vacs and they're all useless in one way or another but my wife swears by the cordless Bosche we've had for a number of years, only one battery and not so good on thick carpet but excellent for the hard floors and it's very light.

Edit
I remember reading this at the time when James Dyson was screaming foul play. https://news.sky.com/story/dyson-wins-c ... s-11547949
 
Phil Pascoe":2c5nvjax said:
A friend repaired domestic electricals for a living. He told me he loved Dysons, they paid his wages. His advice - Henrys, and always with a bag.
Click to expand...

I have a Numatic NVQ something as a shop vac and for occasional, house, car and garage use. Much quieter than the Henry and I agree on quality.
 
Sam, getting back on topic, you suggested a router. Not sure if you realise, but all of the drilling is in a vertical orientation (the bookcases are already installed). I did consider a small router (I only have one small trim router apart from the big stuff) but the problem I couldn't get my head round was aligning it spot on to the template for every penetration.

The router I have (an old Stanley actually with an aluminium body screw mechanism) is unfortunately wider than the necessary gap between the back of the bookcases and where the vertical row of holes needs to go. I don't want to buy a new tool just to do this free job.

I've explained to Richard, and shown him, that there is not anywhere near enough room for access and that in any case the 5.5mm ferrules will have to be knocked into a 5mm hole on one side (which works fine actually) as I can't do the 5.5mm drilling to a depth of 5mm on both sides. He just has to accept that the drilling should have been done prior to construction, and certainly prior to finishing, and that if the new drill bits cause chip out then he will have to get the decorator back to remedy those. I've also said that if he wishes to purchase or maybe hire a right angle drill that will run at slow speed, then I am happy to use that. I've paid for the drill bits but I don't want to buy a whole drill and battery just to do someone a favour as I have no use for one.

Anyway, I will find out on Sunday afternoon as we will do the job with either my wife's help or a friend's help then.

Edit: I have just realised that Festool sell an angle adaptor for my CXS 12 volt drill. £62.
https://www.mtmc.co.uk/Festool-497951-C ... 41232.aspx

We have ordered one for next day delivery. It is basically just a right angled gear, but will then take either the drill chuck or driver. This should help quite a bit as with the drill turned 90 degrees there is enough room for the adaptor, chuck and projecting drill to clear the template.

Problem solved methinks.
 
Brill, that should help a lot. It’s a bit like trepanning through a skull, very slow!
Dyson cordless v good, Henry ( made by Numatic btw) always reliable but lower quality fittings.
Top of the heap for domestic use as far as I am concerned is Sebo. Superb (German) engineering. The main body provides the suck and the attachment at the end of the hose is motorised for carpets brilliant.
 
Ok, point taken. However, I do like the small 12 volt Festool drill. It is very controllable and can be made to go just as slowly as a hand drill (for which I don't have space). The clip on chucks are well engineered, with no slop. My client was perfectly happy to buy a complete new drill if I needed it, but I don't want to waste his money and I am confident that this will be a precision bit of kit that will do the job.
 
AJB Temple":onpq1we7 said:
Edit: I have just realised that Festool sell an angle adaptor for my CXS 12 volt drill. £62.
https://www.mtmc.co.uk/Festool-497951-C ... 41232.aspx

We have ordered one for next day delivery. It is basically just a right angled gear, but will then take either the drill chuck or driver. This should help quite a bit as with the drill turned 90 degrees there is enough room for the adaptor, chuck and projecting drill to clear the template.
Click to expand...

When I bought my Festering Tool 14v drill a while back, it came with a 90deg 'shoots round corners' attachment and on offset one, where the axis of drilling has been shunted by around 20mm to one side. Both have got me out of very deep holes over the years - Rob
 
AJB Temple":2ztdrk2l said:
Ok, point taken. However, I do like the small 12 volt Festool drill. It is very controllable and can be made to go just as slowly as a hand drill (for which I don't have space). The clip on chucks are well engineered, with no slop. My client was perfectly happy to buy a complete new drill if I needed it, but I don't want to waste his money and I am confident that this will be a precision bit of kit that will do the job.
Click to expand...

more a comment on festering stool than you Adrian.

if it works and you are happy then life is good. :obscene-drinkingcheers:
 
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