Record - picture of similar added, plus method

[AJB Temple]

Do you keep a photo record of things you make? Over Christmas I had (in that it was a favour) to make a reproduction of a chair to replace one that was ruined. It came out very well and has just been delivered to its home by the person who was contracted to do the finish matching, which has taken several weeks to get right.

I've just been asked by the trustees for pictures of the work in progress stages. Of which there are none. Even the finisher did not take pictures of the raw wood outcome (he's a very traditional and skilled bloke and does not do mobile phones). We each did our thing and he delivered the finished job.

When I agreed to make this, I said I would keep a record. Which I did: a written record of the wood used, costs (nothing much as the unusual wood was sourced for me), wood sizes and joints used. I did not realise that "record" would mean photos. I am just an amateur and this is not my practice.

It has also been queried (by a trustee I have never met) that I permanently marked the chair with my initials and date (underneath). I have said this was deliberate to prevent anyone in the future mixing the chair up with the very much older original twin, but she is cross and will not explain why.

It was done as a favour, for free, and I am now feeling a tad annoyed.

Feel free to ignore! I am just cross and sounding off.

 

[ScaredyCat]

You made something, for free and they begrudge you your mark?

Next time they ask tell them to go pineapple themselves with banana apricot grapes and then passion fruit kiwi fruit tomato orange orange apple...

 

[AndyT]

Now that you know they want photos, you could offer to take a set for them.

The cost would have to be the full cost of making another chair, plus studio fees, lighting technician, printing out to archival standards, binding into a suitable volume to shelve alongside all their other perfectly specified and documented projects, signing each one as your own work ...

 

[novocaine]

Ask the lovely dear if her name is on her childs birth certificate, or is it her parents name as he child is surely just a copy of her.

Then stick your tongue out at her, call her a poopy pants and walk away, live is to short to deal with people like that.

as to the record, I barely have pictures of my kids, they only time I take pictures of what I'm doing it's to post on here. :lol:

 

[sunnybob]

Its very obvious that they were intent on passing it off as the original, at a much higher value. Whether for personal gain or to inflate the value of the estate.

I take pictures of everything I finish but I dont do WIP pics because things can change rapidly when youre working from imagination only.
All of my wood projects are in the web folder thats linked to in my signature. I use it as advertising when people ask me to make things.
No, nothing I make is likely to be on a stately home inventory. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Cabinetman]

I’m not sure it’s actually possible to make a copy that looks as old as the original – I suppose somebody somewhere can but for normal mortals it isn’t. I think they’ve got a damned cheek anyway. Time to put an invoice in, if for no other reason than just to see the look on her face as you hand it to her. Priceless!
So, how much, I bet if you added up your hours and at a sensible rate it wouldn’t be less than £3000. Ian

 

[AndyP]

You use the word trustee rather than friend. Seems she has cooked her goose. Life is too short to get annoyed about this sort of thing. Last favour they I will ever get I suspect.

 

[AJB Temple]

OK, the work was done for a friend who is a trustee, who has done me a great many small favours and kindnesses over the years. It was suggested that this be a paid job (they had a quote from a proper maker, but it was a lot - thousands) but I preferred them to source the wood and I would do this as a one off for free. All word of mouth. I had some help on wood samples from Custard, and a few contacts suggested of wood sources as it was laburnum, which is hard to find. We had a blind alley on this as the first lot bought by the trustee had too many defects and she fell out with the person she bought it from unfortunately.

My friend has unfortunately become rather unwell since we first agreed the project several months ago. Into his shoes has stepped the lady who he delegated to source the wood (which was difficult) and she is now treating this as if I were a contractor rather than doing it for a genuine old friend for free.

I've had a stroppy phone call and a couple of tart emails and I have done nothing so far.

There is no question of financial gain so far as I know, as these are displayed and certainly the original intention was to to keep the damaged one too.

I was not trying to make an exact reproduction as the chairs are very old and wear is difficult to simulate. I did discuss this with the finishing chap and he gave me some advice. (They paid for his work as the only reason he was engaged is I said I don't have the expertise to do an old looking finish). On the phone I explained that I do mark my work - referring to the fact that since I was 17 I have made and sold quite a few guitars and two violins and they are all marked, and I have made a few ornate chairs for family over the years and marked those too, and really I can't see the difference. The mark is not visible anyway unless you turn the chair upside down, but it is date stamped deeply into the wood.

It was a bizarre conversation as her point was that it was "her" wood as her organisation (the trust) paid for it (true) and so I should have respected that. She is unaware that I am a lawyer and I have not taken a legalistic approach, but in my mind there is a difference between a small pile of wood and a complex chair - that difference being me (in this case). I was proud of it.

Having reflected on it this afternoon, I think I will write to her, copy to my friend, saying that I am sorry she is unhappy, and I will take the chair back and pay for the finishing and wood myself if she wishes. Will sleep on it I think.

 

[RogerS]

Why should you be out of pocket due to her intransigence. I'd simply write the letter and copy your friend and with a bit of luck he'll make her see sense.

I did something similar years ago for a local hospice. It was commissioned by a grateful relative who paid for the wood and I agreed to do the work gratis having no connection with either relative or hospice. In return I was promised some good publicity. It never materialised and I vowed to never do the same again.

https://flic.kr/p/zgt3BJ

 

[AJB Temple]

I would not be out of pocket though - I like the chair. More than happy to keep it.

 

[MattS]

What a shame it's left it on a sour note. How strange as well to want photos documenting the process but not to have the makers mark on the final product?!

You'll know the legal standing better than me, I wouldn't be offering to pay for anything just reminding her it was produced for free and she might be upset it hasn't gone to plan but you have no obligation to do anything. Does she want you to do anything anyway?

 

[Woodbloke]

The short answer is 'yes'. If you made it (and it doesn't matter what it is) you are absolutely, 110%, cast iron, set in concrete entitled to put your mark, date of manufacture, material etc on it. If the client doesn't like it, then don't make it; simples. Similarly, you're also entitled to make a photographic record of the piece. When I used to work for a firm making stuff for Linley, he provided a steel stamp and his name was embossed on the top surface of a drawer.

Everything, but everything that comes out of my 'shop has my initials and date burnt into the underside or back using a pyrographic pen. Everything is also photographed and usually ends up on Facebook on my 'Wilton Woodwork' page - Rob

Edit - I have a genuine Jim Krenov smoother, which is pretty unsophisticated as he was practically blind when he made it. It's probably one of the last things he every made, but right at the front are two little initials; JK. If it's good enough for him, it's good enough for anyone.

 

[AJB Temple]

Yes - she wants the marking removed. She has asked the polisher (not paid) to do it and he has refused.

I rang her back late this afternoon, was ever so nice and said I will collect it tomorrow and bring it back to my workshop to see what I can do. I have to go near there anyway for an X ray.

Once it is back with me I will wait until I can discuss it with my friend. I don't want them to have work that they are not satisfied with. Hence I will pay the polisher myself. He is not at fault and anyway, is a good bloke and won't rip me off. I want him to do a Biedermeier table for me that needs some veneer fixing. Might post it here - the thing drives me crazy. He has said that I did a really nice job of the chair, which is nice as he is an actual old school pro. He thinks this lady may be a friesian.

 

[Chris101]

She'd be fresian at the bottom of a cold lake if it was me.

*Puts friendly forum face back on*

I wonder if this woman thinks that she 'as a member of the trust' was getting a direct 'replacement', ie that her perception was that you were simply updating the trust's property. By putting your mark on it you were, by that view, putting a mark of 'ownership' on what was clearly (to her) a fairly minor job of work. I wonder if she has any idea of the time and effort (nevermind experience etc) it takes to make bespoke furniture. I think that many people just have no idea whatsover that even undertaking a minor project can involve a huge amount of time and effort. They are simply ignorant of it. Willfully or otherwise. None so blind as those who choose not to see. And some people just have no class.
I'd agree that you just take the chair back Adrian after recompensing for any costs the trust has incurred and hope you can maintain a good relationship with the first chap.
I'm sure he will understand your position. The polisher obviously gets it.
What a shame after so much effort on your part.

 

[AJB Temple]

Thanks guys. I feel calmer about it now but I was foolishly upset. I wish I could find now what the quote was from the furniture maker that one of the trustees obtained. I vaguely recall it was something like £10k though that may have been an insurance value for each chair. There is a tortuous back story here about age and provenance, but these are not trivial chairs. And I spent many hours doing drawing templates and carving the back splays and arm supports. It was enjoyable and this silly experience has soured it temporarily.

Chairs are a real challenge to make. I once made a Chippendale copy for myself (I still have it) and to make a sturdy and long lasting elegant chair is harder than you might think.

There is zero risk of it affecting my friendship of must be 35 years. He is much older than me, and used to be the partner in charge of my group at PW now PwC when I first became a partner, and was my original professional mentor. I'm quite certain that he knows exactly what this woman is like (though he is a total gentleman and would not disparage her) and he certainly knows me very well indeed - in the days when I joined the partnership it was unlimited liability and in all seriousness you trusted your partners more than your wife.

 

[Lons]

That's a great shame and unfortunate that your friend fell ill and had to pass it over to a busybody, I'm sure he'll be embarrassed. The chair is your interpretation, copy or not and far removed from a pile of raw material, you're entitled and should put your mark on it!

I would be saying it was a favour for free at great expense of your time and if they don't like it I'd take back the chair, reimburse their costs and let her contemplate the alternative of paying £thousands to someone else, does she know about that quote? What a stupid person she is! You could probably sell on the chair at a nice profit.

It's like giving an artist some canvas and paint, asking them for a masterpiece but don't sign it because we don't want to acknowledge your work or telling a clock repairer not to mark his initials and date on the inside of a clock or watch.
Unfortunately in my personal experience the worst people to deal with tend to be trustees and volunteers, usually women who are just a bit over zealous and usually haven't a clue. I know that's sexist and not meant to offend but just from my experience. I'd be a lot less polite than you I think.

 

[Woodbloke]

Don't forget; when you recover the chair, we want/need/must have pics! :lol: - Rob

 

[AJB Temple]

Thank you. Sadly I hardly know her and I expect she thinks I am "trade" and beneath her. She has that kind of stereotypical demeanour. My dad was a tradesman engineer and her attitude does privately irk me. Apart from anything else she has laughably erroneous historical knowledge coupled with a tendency to lecture about it.

The English way is to say "I don't really know much about this" which translates as "I am quite clued up in this area". I used the former phrase in relation to her historical lecture before she decided to educate me. I've been reading about old English furniture for 30 years and have most of the known reference books on the subject and have read them. I've also researched these chairs properly (it's a lawyer thing - instinctive) and I think I know more than anyone does about these actual ones now. However, she knows best and in her mind always will.

She has not faulted my work. Frankly I expect Custard would have done a better job, and certainly a much faster job, but I would defy 99% of people to realise that this was an amateur piece. In any case the original makers (usually several people on different skills) were not necessarily any better than me, though probably 10 times faster.

The gentleman I offered to do this for lives in a fabulous house that is very old. Not huge but very romantic. As a retirement present from PW I made his refectory dining table in league with his wife. We all cried when it was delivered and I did not want to let him down with this chair so it is my best capability. God I am annoyed!

The polisher's friesian remark was apt though I have been to Frisia in The Netherlands many times (ex wife's brother lives there) and the black and white bovine natives (actually they probably come from somewhere else - I don't know much about cows) are unfailingly polite, though they do have a splatter patter.

Oddly enough I have recently come across another lady of mature years with a similar attitude. It relates to a charity garden opening and the county organiser was very dictatorial (though her deputy is a farmers wife and niceness personified). Luckily I am not rude by nature but I did end up reminding her quite clearly that we are the owners and we will do whatever we like.

This is just life.

Adrian

 

[novocaine]

Collect tomorrow. Drop if a pile if sawdust the day after. As its her wood, and thats the most important part of it, rather than the hard work to make it a chair, then she can have to wood, with a makers mark on it. Id be equally peed off.

Ok she could go for destruction of properry. But as shes already expressedcthat its her wood that made the chair, and the worth is in the wood id suggest its form is not a factor. Id also love to see the test case for it.

 

[AJB Temple]

To me it's simple. I will put her back in the position the trust was in at the outset. I will pay for the wood used (not much actually) and return the surplus material. I will settle the polisher's bill, which will be basically zero to me as we have already had a chat about this, and then she can find someone else to make it. If my friend gets back in the saddle, then we can revert to the original plan if he wants. My dealings with this woman will terminate tomorrow if I get the chair back.

There is no contract. It was a private favour with a former partner of mine. Had a chat with his wife tonight on the phone. I've known her since I was about 25 and very junior. She won't bother him but she is very pragmatic and agrees with this: I shall write to all trustees saying that I feel my completely free efforts have been rejected over a trivial and unreasonable point, it is not worth me wasting any more time on, and wish them well in finding a solution that meets their needs. The chair will look lovely in my new music room at the alcove desk that will be beside the bridge beam.

And thanks all for the support and understanding guys. Ruined my day but tomorrow is another one.

 

[Lons]

Sounds like a plan
I'm sure you will appreciate your efforts and skill much more than she ever would, she'll end up with egg on her face and it's pretty certain the other trusties will see what an idiot she's been :eusa-clap:

 

[Vann]

...I will put her back in the position the trust was in at the outset. I will pay for the wood used (not much actually) and return the surplus material. I will settle the polisher's bill, which will be basically zero to me as we have already had a chat about this, and then she can find someone else to make it...

All a bit sad, but I think this is a good solution.

And the chair you put so much effort into will stay in your family.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Cabinetman]

Excellent plan, well done, and would love to see pictures of your work. Ian

 

[novocaine]

feck em.

 

[AJB Temple]

Chair now back in my possession so this saga is over. An interesting experience collecting it. Now waiting at hospital for foot X ray.

 

[MattS]

Don't suppose you saw her if she's a trustee. But was she so unhappy with the mark that she'd rather not have the chair than have it with the mark??

 

[Sheffield Tony]

Chair now back in my possession so this saga is over. An interesting experience collecting it. Now waiting at hospital for foot X ray.

She was that cross with you ?? :shock:

 

[TrimTheKing]

Chair now back in my possession so this saga is over. An interesting experience collecting it. Now waiting at hospital for foot X ray.

Glad you got the chair back Adrian, keep us in the loop with how this plays out, if it indeed does play out any further.

What's the foot deal? Is that in any way related to the chair collection or coincidental...?

 

[ScaredyCat]

Having reflected on it this afternoon, I think I will write to her, copy to my friend, saying that I am sorry she is unhappy, and I will take the chair back and pay for the finishing and wood myself if she wishes. Will sleep on it I think.

I think this might be a solution, offer to buy the wood for what it cost and take the chair back. You could suggest that you'll only charge half the rate for the inconvenience...

but I admire your ability to not just tell her to fuck off.

edit: Didn't realise you'd already collected the chair.

 

[droogs]

There is only 1 reason that she is annoyed. As you have put your mark on the matching chair no-one can claim they are a matched original set if ever sold and are therefore worth much less, either in sale or on the insurance list. People do this all the time so stuff her

 

[RogerM]

I'm sitting here gobsmacked at how unreasonable some people can be - but sadly not surprised.

Adrian - I think your patience and reasonableness makes you a paragon of virtue not often seen these days. It would appear that the skills of a craftsman are not something this woman (I can't find it in me to call her a "lady") can relate to. Now that you have your lovely chair back again, I would love to be a fly on the wall when she has to discuss with the other trustees how they are now going to get a replacement.

A brilliant artist by the name of Tom Keating spent some time inside for forgery, and on his release resumed his profession as a professional artist. When he produced a painting of a bride and groom in the style of a Georgian master he was accused of getting up to his old tricks again. He said that anyone expecting it to be an original 18th-century painting would surely have it X-rayed, and suggested to his accusers that they do likewise. The X-ray showed that in the underpainting, the bride was wearing an Ann Summers suspender belt, and instead of a bouquet she was clutching a Tesco's bag. :lol:

P.S. I hope your foot is OK, and we need a photo of the chair!

 

[RogerS]

I'm sitting here gobsmacked at how unreasonable some people can be - but sadly not surprised.

Adrian - I think your patience and reasonableness makes you a paragon of virtue not often seen these days. It would appear that the skills of a craftsman are not something this woman (I can't find it in me to call her a "lady") can relate to. Now that you have your lovely chair back again, I would love to be a fly on the wall when she has to discuss with the other trustees how they are now going to get a replacement.

A brilliant artist by the name of Tom Keating spent some time inside for forgery, and on his release resumed his profession as a professional artist. When he produced a painting of a bride and groom in the style of a Georgian master he was accused of getting up to his old tricks again. He said that anyone expecting it to be an original 18th-century painting would surely have it X-rayed, and suggested to his accusers that they do likewise. The X-ray showed that in the underpainting, the bride was wearing an Ann Summers suspender belt, and instead of a bouquet she was clutching a Tesco's bag. :lol:

P.S. I hope your foot is OK, and we need a photo of the chair!

I like the Tom Keating story, Roger, but is there any provenance for it as Google isn't helping sadly...as it's a great story.

 

[ScaredyCat]

Seems he often drew* on the canvas with white lead so that fakes would show up as fakes under x-ray... also he never went to jail.



* wrote obscenities

 

[RogerM]

I like the Tom Keating story, Roger, but is there any provenance for it as Google isn't helping sadly...as it's a great story.

I was writing from my memory of a TV programme about 25 years ago, the fine detail of which I can't remember, but certainly a suspender belt and a Tesco's bag featured. Even if it's an urban myth, it ought to be true!

I stand corrected about him going to jail. His partner in crime, having pleaded guilty, did in fact serve time, but Keating - having pleaded not guilty, had charges against him dropped by the prosecution due to poor health. Happily, his health recovered nicely after charges were dropped!

I guess the original point I was making is that all craftsmen are entitled to leave their mark on their work - however that may manifest itself.

 

[AJB Temple]

Well. I'm back home now. She did not show up to meet me, but we had a chat on the mobile after I put the chair in my car. She asked when I would be doing the work and returning it. My response was regrettably I had taken offence at being rudely criticised for quite properly putting my name on a piece of work I had done entirely out of goodwill, that I had left a cheque in an envelope addressed to the trustees for the wood they bought and I had taken care of the polishing bill personally. Now I was simply recovering property that I had made and she had rejected for spurious reasons and this was the end of the matter as far as I am concerned, other than that I would be happy to discuss it with HLC (my friend) when he feels up to it.

She was upset and produced silly threats that clueless people do. I explained that I had at a guess (not counting) put something like 60 hours of work into this chair, all for free, and did not appreciate being rudely spoken to for my trouble. All goodwill has been exhausted and if she now wants the chair she can buy it from me if she wishes, or she can have one commissioned by a professional furniture maker as was their original intention, but I understood that from memory the quote for that was around £10,000 with a lead time of about a year. Also said that I felt sure that the maker would sign or stamp his work.

She wanted to discuss it, but I had an X-ray appointment. She has since emailed me to apologise and ask if I will return the chair as is. However I declined to do so as I have rather set my mind on putting it it in my new (unbuilt) piano room. People get one chance with a gift - decline or reject it and I am done. She rang me half an hour ago and asked if I would sell her the chair and if so how much it will be. My response was that it would not be less than £3,500 plus delivery but there was no prospect of me doing anything until I have discussed it with my friend. From her backtracking remarks she has now discovered from somewhere that her fellow trustee and I have a shared professional background going back a good many years. She has probably also discovered how much it really costs to make exact hand made replicas from exotic wood.

At the outsetI undertook not to post pictures and although that arrangement is history I will respect it in case I do sell. So that's the end of the story on an eventful day: turns out I have a broken foot!

What did I learn? Nothing really. I would help a friend again and the fact that it went sour was caused by bad luck (illness) and the ignorance and intransigence of the person who took over. I've lost nothing as I enjoyed making it, still have the chair and have developed a good relationship with the finisher. Plus I have enough laburnum left to make another one now that I have bought the wood.

 

[RogerM]

Great decision Adrian. And I quite understand about not posting a photo. Enjoy the fruits of your labour and put your feet up. Bad luck that one of them is broken.

 

[AndyP]

Well done Adrian.

Laburnum? I bet that looks gorgeous. Is there anything preventing you showing as the second one?

 

[Woodbloke]

Great decision Adrian. And I quite understand about not posting a photo. Enjoy the fruits of your labour and put your feet up. Bad luck that one of them is broken.

:text-+1: - Rob

 

[ScaredyCat]

Pleased you have you chair back.
Pleased you gave her what for.

Saddened that it happened at all.

 

[Trevanion]

Was her name Karen by any chance? :lol: