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Saws

Windows

Old Oak
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Cumbria & West Kent
I’m happy sawing by hand, but my wife, a trained cabinet maker, wants to get some machines. What do people recommend for saws including band saw, and various circular saws? She was trained on festtool. Might be hard to answer such a vague question, but what brands do you like or dislike? What characteristics do you choose or avoid when choosing saws? Thanks!

Projects will be real wood based (not MDF or sheet goods): Home improvement stuff like windows, doors, floors and some furniture like tables, cabinets.
 
Your choice, in my view, is going to be determined by the space you have available, and your budget. If you are limited by either than you would be sensible, in my view, to choose a bandsaw over a table saw. The latter takes a fair amount of floorspace, and the former doesn't. Not only that, but the bandsaw is light enough to be rolled in and out of position when you need it. I personally don't consider my 30 sq m workshop big enough for a table saw, and use a bandsaw for ripping.

The alternative could be to consider a tracksaw if you do a lot of breaking down of sheet material, or if you often work with waney-edge boards. I haven't switched my radial arm circular saw on in many months, and my next workshop re-organisation will see it gone. I consider my SCMS a building-site tool, and it hangs on the wall in another shed.

The one thing I never understand about how other people work is how they manage without saw horses. I have three, and I do all of my hand-ripping, and all of my ripping of sheet materials, on them. Have them in your mind as you consider the various alternatives you'll be given in this thread.
 
Mike G":4toq6070 said:
Your choice, in my view, is going to be determined by the space you have available, and your budget. If you are limited by either than you would be sensible, in my view, to choose a bandsaw over a table saw. The latter takes a fair amount of floorspace, and the former doesn't. Not only that, but the bandsaw is light enough to be rolled in and out of position when you need it. I personally don't consider my 30 sq m workshop big enough for a table saw, and use a bandsaw for ripping.
Wot Mike said; bandsaw(s) every time. I use two; a little Ax one for most cuts and a big'n for deep cutting veneers etc. I've had two tablesaurs over the years and got rid of both of them - Rob

Edit - sore horses are great as well; again I have two that stack one atop the other to maximise floor space
 
Seems to me that wood workers are either biassed to hand tools or power/machine tools and within the power machine tools faction, a further subdivision between table saw and band saw.

I have a band saw but for quick and dirty sawing and could not imagine doing almost anything without my table saw. As you have seen above we have Mike and Rob without a table saw between them.

So maybe make that distinction first and progress from there.

Bob
 
9fingers":267hza85 said:
Seems to me that wood workers are either biassed to hand tools or power/machine tools and within the power machine tools faction, a further subdivision between table saw and band saw.

I have a band saw but for quick and dirty sawing and could not imagine doing almost anything without my table saw. As you have seen above we have Mike and Rob without a table saw between them.

So maybe make that distinction first and progress from there.

Bob

I'm in Bob's camp.
 
I bought a table saw first (I'd obviously watched too many youtube videos :lol: ) and only recently got the bandsaw. The table saw is for sale as it rarely gets used and will get used even less now I have the bandsaw. I've also got a track saw and that's fabulous when you've got bits of plywood needing cutting up.
 
+1 for a table saw - and a bandsaw! TS can recommend Sedgwick TA315 maybe a bit bigger than you had in mind but it has a cross cut slider on it as well, so useful,/will crosscut planks up to 24” wide, The end grain finish is almost good enough to leave as is, you can’t do that on a BS.
 
Cabinetman":1mawcmhx said:
+1 for a table saw - and a bandsaw! TS can recommend Sedgwick TA315 maybe a bit bigger than you had in mind but it has a cross cut slider on it as well, so useful,/will crosscut planks up to 24” wide, The end grain finish is almost good enough to leave as is, you can’t do that on a BS.

And it's in a straight line !
 
Personally, as a professional architectural joiner, I couldn't be without either the bandsaw or the table saw as both are pretty paramount to making an efficient living out of it. If I had to say which one I would keep if I had to get rid of one I would say it would have to be the table saw, or more specifically a Euro-style sliding table saw such as the Felder saws. My reasoning would be that a good table saw is a much more versatile and accurate machine overall as compared to any bandsaw which is primarily a rough working machine, for example, on a euro-style sliding table saw you can quite easily do the bevels, face cuts and trench the cill for a sliding sash window to a very accurate tolerance, you can cut the tenons for doors and sashes with relative ease, and you can use the saw to rebate if you don't have something like a spindle moulder for that. Practices like this, of course, does involve removing the two most important safety devices behind common sense, the crown guard and riving knife. For joinery, it needn't be a 3m sliding table monster for cutting up sheets day-in-day-out, something fairly compact like a Hammer K3, Minimax SC2, or similar would be more than adequate. I would avoid machines without the sliding table purely down to the versatility factor, a saw without one is only really good for ripping though you can make crosscutting jigs to fit them.

Bandsaws have their place and a lot of people prefer them, but beyond cutting curves there isn't much that they can do that a table saw can't do better, but as I said I wouldn't be without both. If you're considering a bandsaw I would say you don't need anything larger than a 14" wheel machine, I find since you typically buy boards in the thickness you want, you never really need to rip material thicker than 4" so all that extra cut height is of little relevance though occasionally being able to cut 9" is useful but very rarely required.

A handheld circular saw is a very handy tool for breaking up larger boards into more manageable sections too, a 9" saw will deal with most stuff you throw at it. Most brands like Makita, Dewalt, Bosch, etc, all make them quite inexpensively and there isn't much to choose between them, they all do the same thing.
 
The only time I ever feel the lack of a table saw is when I have large rebates to make. As my house nears completion the need for those is declining rapidly.
 
Trevanion":1j0a0asq said:
Personally, as a professional architectural joiner, I couldn't be without either the bandsaw or the table saw as both are pretty paramount to making an efficient living out of it. If I had to say which one I would keep if I had to get rid of one I would say it would have to be the table saw, or more specifically a Euro-style sliding table saw such as the Felder saws.
If you trawl back through this thread, the overriding issue with a tablesaur, particularly one with a big slider is space, space and more space. As a pro joiner, I suspect you're working in a suitably sized 'shop that can accommodate a Felder, Altendorf etc. I used to use an Altendorf regularly and would agree that provided you know all the tricks of the trade, you can make one of those things dance on it's head...but, you need a workshop the size of a 747 hangar (slight exaggeration :D ) to house the thing. The vast majority of amateur hobbyist 'shops in the UK are probably no bigger than a single garage or double at best - Rob

Edit - even a 'small' tablesaur with a slider is probably too big for the average home 'shop and even the finest most, accurate one won't cut 2mm thick veneers that are 250mm wide. A bandsaw will :D
 
Woodbloke":1c2oqddn said:
If you trawl back through this thread, the overriding issue with a tablesaur, particularly one with a big slider is space, space and more space. As a pro joiner, I suspect you're working in a suitably sized 'shop that can accommodate a Felder, Altendorf etc. I used to use an Altendorf regularly and would agree that provided you know all the tricks of the trade, you can make one of those things dance on it's head...but, you need a workshop the size of a 747 hangar (slight exaggeration :D ) to house the thing. The vast majority of amateur hobbyist 'shops in the UK are probably no bigger than a single garage or double at best - Rob

Ahem :D

Trevanion":1c2oqddn said:
For joinery, it needn't be a 3m sliding table monster for cutting up sheets day-in-day-out, something fairly compact like a Hammer K3, Minimax SC2, or similar would be more than adequate.

They do take up space as you need a good amount of clearance around the whole machine for working with it, but I reckon you can still have a small one like the K3 in a workshop of about 25m2 and still have a planer thicknesser and other tools fitting in there at the same time.

Woodbloke":1c2oqddn said:
Edit - even a 'small' tablesaur with a slider is probably too big for the average home 'shop and even the finest most, accurate one won't cut 2mm thick veneers that are 250mm wide. A bandsaw will :D

But from what I understand Windows isn't looking to cut 2mm thick veneers, but to make doors, windows, and other home improvement items, so that point isn't relevant.
 
Trevanion":1awyrzba said:
Ahem :D

Trevanion":1awyrzba said:
For joinery, it needn't be a 3m sliding table monster for cutting up sheets day-in-day-out, something fairly compact like a Hammer K3, Minimax SC2, or similar would be more than adequate.

They do take up space as you need a good amount of clearance around the whole machine for working with it, but I reckon you can still have a small one like the K3 in a workshop of about 25m2 and still have a planer thicknesser and other tools fitting in there at the same time.

Ahem....I did say that even a small one would probably be too big for the average small 'shop (say medium single garage size of 15sq metres, according to Google) They're great, but just tooooooo big for most users - Rob
 
Both. Ok you can do a lot with a bandsaw in terms of ripping but it does need to be a big one. By comparison, a TS is dramatically more accurate.... even smaller ones.
 
In terms of space it rather depends on the maximum lengths you are wanting to rip! In the past I have used one within a length of about 5m and it was still highly useful!
 
This is a useful discussion for me since I’ve not deeply considered machinery before.
Our workshop space is in fact a single car garage.
We’re starting to think that maybe getting access to a table saw through a shared space rather than having one at home might be the way to go. I can see that we’re going to have to trade off space, price, convenience.
Are there price bands below/above which tools are not worth considering?
Do people find a use for jigsaws at all?
 
If I didn't have a table saw I wouldn't have somewhere to stand my SCMS and bandsaw. :lol:

It does get used occasionally, but for the most part It's easier and quicker to use the track saw. I have a project in mind in which I'll need to rip a lot of 5-7mm strips of longish boards, nothing is going to do that as effeciently, accurately or safely as the table saw and leave as good of a finish (although the track saw comes close).

Personnally I'd be looking at a tracksaw and bandsaw setup and doubt I'd feel like I was missing out.

personnal opinion obviously.
 
Track saw for sheet material....laying on some Kingspan on the floor. Much easier to handle large 8 x 4 sheets. Rough cut then cut to exact sizes on a table saw.

Ripping stock for doors and windows ? Table saw wins hands down in terms of ease of handling, support for the long lengths with the minimum of fuss. Especially heavier stock like 2" or 3" of oak.

Depth of cut not enough ? Do it in two passes ...cut through half of the stock, flip it over and then cut the other half. If still not enough then use a handsaw for the remaining cut. It's going through the planer and thicknesser anyway and so don't fret about 'steps' in the cut face. Or get a big bandsaw.

Nibbling away at little wee cuts gently ? Small bandsaw.

I now have a combi machine and really miss my standalone table-saw. And talking of limited space....have you considered a combi ?

Jigsaw ? Rarely use one. Certainly not for ripping down fairly thick stock like door stiles
 
novocaine":1f2hq69r said:
I have a project in mind in which I'll need to rip a lot of 5-7mm strips of longish boards, nothing is going to do that as effeciently, accurately or safely as the table saw and leave as good of a finish (although the track saw comes close).

Nope, wrong :D Bandsaw and then drum sander! The combination in small 'shop is a complete game changer; you could finish your strips to 1 or 2mm if needed - Rob
 
Woodbloke":iexx9fry said:
novocaine":iexx9fry said:
I have a project in mind in which I'll need to rip a lot of 5-7mm strips of longish boards, nothing is going to do that as effeciently, accurately or safely as the table saw and leave as good of a finish (although the track saw comes close).

Nope, wrong :D Bandsaw and then drum sander! The combination in small 'shop is a complete game changer; you could finish your strips to 1 or 2mm if needed - Rob

True but it can add a fair bit of extra time sometimes if you have a lot to do, and multiple passes. Plus the additional downtime when you have to go and fix that silly keyway (again) on the Jet. DAMHIKT.
 
Woodbloke":39guxfcn said:
novocaine":39guxfcn said:
I have a project in mind in which I'll need to rip a lot of 5-7mm strips of longish boards, nothing is going to do that as effeciently, accurately or safely as the table saw and leave as good of a finish (although the track saw comes close).

Nope, wrong :D Bandsaw and then drum sander! The combination in small 'shop is a complete game changer; you could finish your strips to 1 or 2mm if needed - Rob

10ft boards, most likely 8-10" wide and 3/4-1" thick. the material needs to be 5-7mm thick to allow for planing and sanding in the compound curve.
the table saw may waste a strip from each board due to kerf but I can live with that.
I'm talking of making a few hundred, if not more, the blade on the table saw won't notice it (unless I hit a nail), the blade on the band saw will be blunt at the end of it.

the speed I can push the board through the table saw is at least twice the feed rate of the band saw and I won't have to touch it with a second machine until the work is made. even if the table saw only saves me a minute a cut it's enough to give me a few hours less work and few hours more using the damn thing. :obscene-drinkingbuddies:

Sorry woody, but you are the person who is wrong on this one. :D :P
 
novocaine":2agk88pz said:
10ft boards, most likely 8-10" wide and 3/4-1" thick. the material needs to be 5-7mm thick to allow for planing and sanding in the compound curve.

Sorry woody, but you are the person who is wrong on this one. :D :P
I'm never wrong :eusa-whistle: :eusa-liar: 'tis not a word in my lexicon! :D

An 8-10' board is doable on a bandsaw with a some in/outfeed rollers (easily knocked up out of odds n'sods) but granted, that would be easier on a tablesaur with a bigger bed...though you'd probably still need some rollers. If it's 5-6mm thick there's also a distinct and very real danger that the p/t will mangle them as they go through; don't ask me how I know. With a drum sander, it won't happen. Game changer; speak to anybody who's got one (RogM, Bob9f, RogS) - Rob

Edit - Roger, thee and me are hobbyists where time is the least of our considerations (for me anyway). Were we pros (and I was) it would be THE most important factor bar none!
 
Ok but please do not use it to cut rebates as alluded to above! Burying the blade is a H&S no no on a TS. Unless it's a rabbet hehe.
 
Raymedullary":36bjpenp said:
Ok but please do not use it to cut rebates as alluded to above! Burying the blade is a H&S no no on a TS. Unless it's a rabbet hehe.

No it's not.
WIS 16 says its fine with suitable guarding.
It's another of those statements that's been tooted for years but simply isn't correct.
 
Oh dear, I'm out of date! It was the case in the late 70's when I was taught.
No "tooting" going on here.
I still wouldn't do it though.
 
Raymedullary":2r0225bz said:
Oh dear, I'm out of date! It was the case in the late 70's when I was taught.
No "tooting" going on here.
I still wouldn't do it though.

Sorry, its one of bugbears. Didn't mean for it to sound so snippy. :obscene-drinkingcheers:
 
Woodbloke":2iasrx3e said:
Ahem....I did say that even a small one would probably be too big for the average small 'shop (say medium single garage size of 15sq metres, according to Google) They're great, but just tooooooo big for most users - Rob

I think I would still have the sliding table saw pretty much over any other tool in a small workshop aside from a planer thicknesser, it’s not so much about which tool is better than the other but which is more relevant and versatile for the work behind undertaken which sound primarily joinery. You could quite easily fit a smallish one in a small single garage-sized workshop and it also doubles up as a decent assembly bench if you take the guard off, wind the blade to underneath the table and place a piece of plywood atop it.

Raymedullary":2iasrx3e said:
Ok but please do not use it to cut rebates as alluded to above! Burying the blade is a H&S no no on a TS. Unless it's a rabbet hehe.

As Novocaine said, it’s not a H&S no-no and the HSE actually illustrate it in their document on using circular saw benches, though I do think there is still some ruling that the safest machine should be used for the task, so if you have a spindle moulder you should use that rather than the table saw, but some rebates are actually safer cut on the table saw than the spindle moulder. I will quite often take the rebates out on short sections of sashes/casements as they’re quite dangerous to feed through a spindle moulder but ripping the rebate out is a fairly safe operation.
 
Trevanion":r78wujsd said:
I think I would still have the sliding table saw pretty much over any other tool in a small workshop aside from a planer thicknesser, it’s not so much about which tool is better than the other but which is more relevant and versatile for the work behind undertaken which sound primarily joinery. You could quite easily fit a smallish one in a small single garage-sized workshop and it also doubles up as a decent assembly bench if you take the guard off, wind the blade to underneath the table and place a piece of plywood atop it.

I had two small tablesaurs with sliding tables (Kity 419 and an appalling Charnwood thing) in my 'shop which took up an inordinate amount of space which was at the time intensely annoying as I never really used the things as they were intended. They were also incredibly inaccurate which was even more annoying :evil: ! Eventually, they both got sold on and the space they once occupied is now taken up with a UJK, cast iron topped router table which is infinitely more useful for the sort of work I do. Tablesaurs of any denomination I don't need! - Rob
 
turns out that opinions on saws are like arseholes. we all have one. no one else needs to know about yours and no one likes the taste of it.
 
Woodbloke":8kejqw2k said:
Trevanion":8kejqw2k said:
I think I would still have the sliding table saw pretty much over any other tool in a small workshop aside from a planer thicknesser, it’s not so much about which tool is better than the other but which is more relevant and versatile for the work behind undertaken which sound primarily joinery. You could quite easily fit a smallish one in a small single garage-sized workshop and it also doubles up as a decent assembly bench if you take the guard off, wind the blade to underneath the table and place a piece of plywood atop it.

I had two small tablesaurs with sliding tables (Kity 419 and an appalling Charnwood thing) in my 'shop which took up an inordinate amount of space which was at the time intensely annoying as I never really used the things as they were intended. They were also incredibly inaccurate which was even more annoying :evil: ! Eventually, they both got sold on and the space they once occupied is now taken up with a UJK, cast iron topped router table which is infinitely more useful for the sort of work I do. Tablesaurs of any denomination I don't need! - Rob

I'm not sure if you're getting my point, Rob :eusa-think:
 
Trevanion":3ix9c5s3 said:
I'm not sure if you're getting my point, Rob :eusa-think:
I can see where you're coming from, but for the sort of work I do, tablesaurs don't work for me and I've developed a way of working where I simply don't need one; end of story :D - Rob
 
Woodbloke":gdjwa3te said:
I can see where you're coming from, but for the sort of work I do, tablesaurs don't work for me and I've developed a way of working where I simply don't need one; end of story :D - Rob

Yes, but this discussion isn't about you but rather the OP, Windows, who's looking to make doors and windows and other home improvement items, rather than high-end cabinetry with super tight tolerances. Working exclusively with a bandsaw may work perfectly well for you doing that, but I personally don't believe it is the ideal choice for the work being undertaken and that the euro-style sliding table saw is the better choice of the two because of its versatility.

I made this large triangular window for a conservatory a little while back, I don't think there's another faster, safer (well if I had the guard on it would be safer :oops:), and more accurate way of making these acute cuts, and that's just one of its numerous uses.

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Even in a tiny workshop I would still make room for one above all else (aside from a planer thicknesser) because I can live without most things but I would really struggle without the sliding table saw.
 
Woodbloke":3d11op04 said:
I can see where you're coming from, but for the sort of work I do, tablesaurs don't work for me and I've developed a way of working where I simply don't need one; end of story :D - Rob

Agreed this is the whole point. Most of us have established our favoured ways of working to suit the type of projects we do.
As far as the OP question is concerned they could perhaps sit down an mentally work through the type of jobs they want to do and think how the various major tools would work for them.
Hopefully home in on a primary sawing machine and give that a try in practice. Maybe it will be a right first time or perhaps they will go through the evolution process as Rob did of investing in a tablesaw, not getting on with it and ending up with two bandsaws instead.
I bought a RAS when setting up thinking I'd use it a lot and in 15 years it's rarely made any sawdust - we can all make errors unless extremely lucky.

Bob
 
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