Self build house extension

[Norty Raskel]

Hi all,

I've been a long time lurker, so I must apologise that my first actual post to this forum is not even wood related. I've been fascinated with Mike's house build (and workshop) and have read through it from start to finish several times making notes as I go in preparation for my own planned extension (a much smaller affair).

I've hit an unexpected hurdle right at the planning stage though, I'm struggling to find an architect that is able to offer the level of support that I "think" I require. I've contacted architects that would happy to produce drawings with the view of supporting planning applications and at the other end of the scale architects that will be happy to project manage the build, but I'm looking for someone that can just offer guidance if (mostly likely when) it's required. I have the skills to complete the build but lack knowledge of some of the details.

The extension is single storey, with a flat roof supporting a roof lantern, very much like the green oak orangerie WIP that was on here a year ago.

My question I suppose is am I asking too much from an architect, or have I simply not found the right person?

Thanks
Jon

 

[Mike G]

Hi all,

I've been a long time lurker, so I must apologise that my first actual post to this forum is not even wood related. I've been fascinated with Mike's house build (and workshop) and have read through it from start to finish several times making notes as I go in preparation for my own planned extension (a much smaller affair).

I've hit an unexpected hurdle right at the planning stage though, I'm struggling to find an architect that is able to offer the level of support that I "think" I require. I've contacted architects that would happy to produce drawings with the view of supporting planning applications and at the other end of the scale architects that will be happy to project manage the build, but I'm looking for someone that can just offer guidance if (mostly likely when) it's required. I have the skills to complete the build but lack knowledge of some of the details.

The extension is single storey, with a flat roof supporting a roof lantern, very much like the green oak orangerie WIP that was on here a year ago.

My question I suppose is am I asking too much from an architect, or have I simply not found the right person?

Thanks
Jon

Welcome to the forum, Jon.

An architect should provide a comprehensive package of drawings such that you don't need much advice or guidance, but frankly, I don't know any architects who wouldn't help in that way anyway. I do, but I do tend to provide a very comprehensive set of drawings so as to not leave anything to chance on site, so i don't get many queries. You may have noticed on here that I am quite happy to offer advice.

Whereabouts in the country are you? Do you have planning permission? Do you have some working drawings?

Mike

 

[Norty Raskel]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for taking the time to respond, I was hoping you would. Your willingness to help other has made quite an impression on me and I think subconsciously I've been looking to find someone equally as helpful. None of the architects I'd spoken to have explained that comprehensive details drawings would be supplied, in my naivety I'd assumed they would supply outline and plan drawings only. I guess they assumed I knew what I would be getting.

The extension will be permitted development, there's a possibility I'd need to go through the neighbour consultation process depending on how the final design incorporates an existing outbuilding. I have some concept drawings which I drew up (old school drawing board, the steep learning curve for sketch-up defeats me every time I try )which I use in conjunction with photos to illustrate the desired end product. One of my primary reasons for seeking an architect is too ensure some design is incorporated into the extension otherwise it could easily turn into a rectangular rendered box.

I'm in Leicestershire by the way, how well does architecture by internet work?? :twisted:

Thanks again

Jon

 

[Norty Raskel]

MOD Edit: duplicate post deleted

Jon now you have made three posts, they will be published immediately without moderation.

Bob

 

[Mike G]

Now you've got the 3 post thing out of the way, Jon, pop some photos on here so we can all see what is involved.

 

[Wizard9999]

Catching up on some TV on the Sky box last night we watched the first part of a series I have not heard of before, Ugly House to Lovely House. The couple in that first programme had a small extension and knocked down a lot of walls in the downstairs, plus they beautified the outside. The transformation was, to my eyes, very impressive and did show that an architect can add a whole lot more than drawings, you know that 'vision thing'. But it did reinforce my deeply held view that the one thing you can't rely on an architect for is a decent cost estimate - except for Mike of course, who has previously assured me he always over estimates.

Good luck with the process,
Terry.

 

[RogerS]

Jon

Re SketchUp...I thoroughly recommend this DVD by DaveR. Although primarily aimed at woodworkers, you'll find that the excellent tips and advice from Dave on this will really help you get to grips with SketchUp.

http://www.tauntonstore.com/fine-woodwo ... 67125.html

Worth every penny (or is that cent? !)

 

[chippy1970]

Catching up on some TV on the Sky box last night we watched the first part of a series I have not heard of before, Ugly House to Lovely House. The couple in that first programme had a small extension and knocked down a lot of walls in the downstairs, plus they beautified the outside. The transformation was, to my eyes, very impressive and did show that an architect can add a whole lot more than drawings, you know that 'vision thing'. But it did reinforce my deeply held view that the one thing you can't rely on an architect for is a decent cost estimate - except for Mike of course, who has previously assured me he always over estimates.

Good luck with the process,
Terry.

I thought the first one was terrible , if it was the double height space one where he wanted to fix bikes to the outside front wall ? Also had a stupid false brick door on the front to hide a small storage area.

I thought the whole thing was a bad waste of space. I quite like George Clark but I noticed each show has a guest designer/architect so he doesn't get too involved.

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[Wizard9999]

I thought the first one was terrible , if it was the double height space one where he wanted to fix bikes to the outside front wall ? Also had a stupid false brick door on the front to hide a small storage area.

I thought the whole thing was a bad waste of space. I quite like George Clark but I noticed each show has a guest designer/architect so he doesn't get too involved.

Nope, not that one, I was watching one about a house in the Vale of Glamorgan. Larch cladding over pebbledash and extension angled at 45 degrees to kitchen with sloping roof.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/ugly ... ee-cardiff

Terry.

 

[chippy1970]

I thought the first one was terrible , if it was the double height space one where he wanted to fix bikes to the outside front wall ? Also had a stupid false brick door on the front to hide a small storage area.

I thought the whole thing was a bad waste of space. I quite like George Clark but I noticed each show has a guest designer/architect so he doesn't get too involved.

Nope, not that one, I was watching one about a house in the Vale of Glamorgan. Larch cladding over pebbledash and extension angled at 45 degrees to kitchen with sloping roof.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/ugly ... ee-cardiff

Terry.

That's not the one I watched. Maybe it was the second episode and I thought it had just started. That one looks nice

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[chippy1970]

Will be interesting to follow this thread as Mike might remember I'm thinking of doing an extension to my place. I've been thinking about it far too long lol

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[Mike G]

.........But it did reinforce my deeply held view that the one thing you can't rely on an architect for is a decent cost estimate - except for Mike of course, who has previously assured me he always over estimates..........

I don't want to divert this thread too much, but there are issues.

Firstly, I always give a range. "I estimate this will cost you £150,000 to £170,000", for instance*. Problem no. 1: the client always remembers only the £150,000 figure. Problem no. 2: (client to the builder) "Oh whilst you're here, do you think you could just........." Problem no. 3 Client: "I've had a little think, and rather than do it as per the drawing, I'd like to just.........".

Cumulative effect of Problems 2 and 3 are say £20,000 (that's entirely realistic). Therefore total spend £190,000

......."But Mr Architect, you told me it would cost £150,000......."


* I always qualify this by saying "this is an architect's estimate only, and we won't know for certain until the tenders come back. Even then, we won't know the final price until we know how deep the foundations have to be".

 

[chataigner]

Regarding cost estimates - in my former business (publicity/PR etc) we analyzed invoices and estimates and maintained a moving average of the ratio. Same for time scales. When providing quotes we used these openly saying, for an exhibition stand for example : "estimated price as currently specified £30,500, but experience of similar projects shows a typical increase of 15% due to changes of requirements during the project and 5% for unforseen issues on site".
Focussed everyone's minds quite well.

 

[Rod]

On Civil Engineering contracts, 10% contingencies was always added and under the old contracts, Clause 14 - Adverse Weather and Unforseen Ground Conditions always reared its ugly head! [emoji3]

Rod

 

[Wizard9999]

I've watched four out of five of the Ugly Home to Lovely Home now and so far feeling my assertion that you can't base your plans on an architect's initial cost estimate is fair and as far as the programmes show the issue is not really about client driven changes, just consistent underestimation at the start as far as I can make out. Episode four had a couple with a £50k budget who seem to have had just what the architect designed for them built, he said it was "tight, but possible". Final cost, £90k. OK, as long as you go in with your eyes open and have a very big contingency at the start.

Don't get me wrong, I love good architecture and if I could speak to my 12 year old self I would tell him to become an architect. But, they don't come out well in this respect in these programmes.

Terry.

 

[chippy1970]

Did you watch last week's with the supposedly great architect. It's all very well doing something outstanding but you gotta get the details right.

He went massively over budget which wasn't a surprise when I saw his plans.

Things that would bug me were the roof that was quite good but then the feature round porthole skylights looked rubbish in the inside because the purlins cut right across the top and bottom of them. They looked crammed in between which spoilt it.

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[RogerS]

Surely you'd go to an architect for the design, plans and ball-park estimate? Then to builders to get more accurate quotes.

 

[Wizard9999]

Surely you'd go to an architect for the design, plans and ball-park estimate? Then to builders to get more accurate quotes.

Yes logical Roger, once you know the architect's estimate may be well under, but I guess some people would think (not unreasonably) that the architect should have a pretty good idea of what their design will cost to build, especially if a budget is part of the brief. I wonder how good the estimates would be if the contract was structured such that the first thing that happened in the case of a cost overrun was that the additional costs came out of the architects fee :lol: .

Terry.

 

[RogerS]

Surely you'd go to an architect for the design, plans and ball-park estimate? Then to builders to get more accurate quotes.

Yes logical Roger, once you know the architect's estimate may be well under, but I guess some people would think (not unreasonably) that the architect should have a pretty good idea of what their design will cost to build, especially if a budget is part of the brief. I wonder how good the estimates would be if the contract was structured such that the first thing that happened in the case of a cost overrun was that the additional costs came out of the architects fee :lol: .

Terry.

Agreed if budget was part of the brief otherwise not necessarily so especially if the building was using something relatively new or outside the specific past experience of the architect and so no real-life costings to base any estimate on. By that I mean the architect might specify a zinc flat roof but he/she might never have 'delivered' a project before using it. So at best all the architect can do is ring around a few firms...which is exactly what the customer would do.

And then when the distaff side decided on that lovely designer kitchen and Victoria and Albert Napoli bath then all bets are off !!

 

[Mike G]

..........I wonder how good the estimates would be if the contract was structured such that the first thing that happened in the case of a cost overrun was that the additional costs came out of the architects fee.........

Well to start with, the architect's fees would go up substantially , because the architect would have to get a Quantity Surveyor to price the job prior to giving an estimate to the client.

Don't forget that what you see on TV is what the editor chooses to show you. Just because it appears that an architect has fouled up an estimate doesn't mean this is actually what happened. Now and then it would be nice to see the architect able to respond to these accusations.

 

[RogerS]

..........I wonder how good the estimates would be if the contract was structured such that the first thing that happened in the case of a cost overrun was that the additional costs came out of the architects fee.........

.....
Don't forget that what you see on TV is what the editor chooses to show you. Just because it appears that an architect has fouled up an estimate doesn't mean this is actually what happened. Now and then it would be nice to see the architect able to respond to these accusations.

+1

I detest those type of programmes because all the producer/director/presenter wants to do is up the ante to make things look blacker then they really are so that the programme becomes contentious/angst ridden. I remember a Kevin McCloud programme about the renovation of an old black-and-white and he was making out that the fact that the frames were out of alignment with each other by 'over 10mm'. "No **** Sherlock'.

 

[Wizard9999]

..........Don't forget that what you see on TV is what the editor chooses to show you. Just because it appears that an architect has fouled up an estimate doesn't mean this is actually what happened. Now and then it would be nice to see the architect able to respond to these accusations.

Fair comment Mike, it is covered in just a couple of sentences along the lines of 'your budget was X, what did you spend?... oh, so Y more than you initially planned'. And again to be fair, the people seem to be happy with the end result.

Terry.

 

[chippy1970]

Surely you'd go to an architect for the design, plans and ball-park estimate? Then to builders to get more accurate quotes.

Yeah but in this case they had a budget and the architect knew that so why design a roof that cost £38k when the entire budget Inc a new kitchen was £50k

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[Mike G]

We're rather getting away from Jon's extension.

I went up and visited Jon over the weekend, and am drawing something up for him now. If I can't get on with my renovation, it's entirely his fault :lol:

 

[chippy1970]

Come and do mine next Mike lol

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[Norty Raskel]

I've just logged on, because I didn't think it was right to just let this thread go cold but I see it's now got a life of it's own

Mike has indeed kindly offered to help design the extension, Mike sided with my partner Rebecca, who felt a green oak structure was completely out of character, however, to counter that, she's now accepted that I need to build a bigger bike workshop/store elsewhere in the garden to replace the outbuilding that will make way for the extension(and a bigger bike shed means room for more bikes-shhh) bscene-drinkingcheers: Mikes "too many tools and not enough space" comment to Rebecca could also ease the way for a bigger wood workshop in the future too........ :twisted:

Mike has taken our ideas, along with plenty of his own and returned home to bring these to life, we await the first initial drawings and will go from there. I'm happy to make this a WIP if people are interested.

As for it being my fault, Mike if my extension design is not finished in the next 3 weeks then you are under strict instructions the shelve the project until your house is completed, I already have the shakes and fever, from the withdrawal of your daily build updates.

Finally, RogerS, thanks for the Sketchup link, I'm not ready to scrap the drawing board yet, but that day has taken a step closer.

Jon

 

[Mike G]

....Mikes "too many tools and not enough space" comment to Rebecca could also ease the way for a bigger wood workshop in the future too........ :twisted:.....

I protest! I never said "too many tools". I did however suggest that you didn't really have the space to use the ones you'd got, thereby sowing the seeds for a workshop extension in due course. You can thank me later

 

[kostello]

you are under strict instructions the shelve the project until your house is completed, .


Jon

If it is like My houses it will be finished 10 minutes before it is sold......!!!!!

[WHITE SMILING FACE]