Separating lids from boxes - how do you do yours?

[StevieB]

There have been some simply stunning examples of boxes lately in the 'what you last made' thread and elsewhere, and the fit and finish always looks excellent. Having been less than successful myself I wondered how people are separating their lids from their bases as it is the step I struggle with the most. I have tried various options:

tablesaw - last cut rarely works well even when wedging the cut sides open

bandsaw - either not deep enough, or difficult to control/get a straight cut

Handsaw - yeah, right

Router table - probably the best finish for me but cumbersome and can lose a lot of wood in the cut

My current method is to cut almost all the way through with a tablesaw and then finish with a Japanese pull saw, leaving only a thin piece to clean up and minimising material lost (3.2mm from the saw kerf). Is there a better way to perform this technique to leave lid and base aligned and looking neat? How do you do yours?

 

[Mike G]

Handsaw. Yes, really. I just guided my daughter through her first ever woodworking project, entirely hand-tools, and she cut through it herself with a small backed saw. Two, in fact, as she found a Gent's saw easier. With a kerf of well under a mm, and a little bit of cleaning up, I'd guess at 1.5mm lost.

If I were doing it for myself, I'd use the bandsaw. If your saw isn't reliable enough to make a straight cut, you're going to need to sit down in front of Steve Maskery's Workshop Essentials guide to bandsaws.

 

[Mike]

I made only two boxes, so far, that required separating the lid from the base. For the second box, I used a slot cutter in my router table to make the initial cut around the perimeter of the box. The cutter width was slightly wider than the kerf on my hand saw and the depth was about 1mm shy of cutting through the panels. I used the hand saw for the final cut and a plane to clean up the edges.

Here is a screenshot of a set similar cutters. This process worked great for me because the maximum height of the cutter in the router table was less than the height of the lid. Depending on the arbor and cutter discs, it could be possible to stack multiple cutters as needed.

 

[AndyT]

Like Mike said, handsaw.
If you need some help to get a straight line, you could make a narrow groove along the boards before assembly. After the box is assembled, saw along the groove, then plane or sand back to the sides of it.
If planing around the whole box doesn't work for you, just use a full sheet of abrasive paper on a flat board.

 

[StevieB]

Thanks chaps. Not sure a handsaw would work for me but I do have a slot cutter for my router somewhere (been using a standard straight bit until now) so could certainly try that method.

 

[Dr.Al]

I use a handsaw as well (a Japanese Dozuki). In most of the boxes I've made with separated lids (before I got better at sawing) I masking-taped a bit of wood to the side of the saw and rubbed the wood back and forth on the bench next to the box. The bit of wood kept the saw horizontal and at a fixed offset from the bench.

I couldn't find any photos of that method specifically, but I used the same approach for cutting splines and there are some photos about halfway down this page: https://www.cgtk.co.uk/woodwork/boxes/firsteverbox

More recently, I just put some masking tape around the box (it was dark wood and I wanted to be able to see a line), drew a line all the way round with a pencil and then used a Dozuki to follow the line.

If I were going to do it with power tools, I'd use a bandsaw: all I really use my bandsaw for is resawing and it cuts a nice straight line over a wide board, which is much the same as you want when separating box from lid. Of course you've got to have your bandsaw set up properly (q.v. Alex Snodgrass) and pick an appropriate blade, but otherwise it should be quite quick and easy.

 

[AJB Temple]

Handsaw. Japanese Thin kerf and cuts on the pull stroke. I do have a bandsaw, but handsaw is quick and satisfying.

 

[Steve Maskery]

I also do the nearly-through-with-the-tablesaw method, bt for smaller, more delicate boxes I use a Japanes sw and an L-shaped guide block to keep me on the straight and narrow.

Mike - thanks for the plug!

 

[Mike G]

I mean this in the nicest possible way.......I am genuinely curious how any one could struggle cutting 4 straight lines with a hand saw (tenon saw, gent's saw, or even a Japanes saw). What's the issue? With a little help to get started, and on the first corner, my weak-as-water daughter managed it pretty well on her first ever try, so I'm puzzled as to what the perceived difficulties are.

 

[Just4fun]

I use a backsaw, the same Spear & Jackson tenon saw I use for just about everything. I don't make a lot of boxes that way though.

I had a problem with one box, which I made quickly to hold some reamers. I made some inserts to actually hold the reamers and fixed them in place when I glued up the box. Then I realised I had not marked which end had to be cut off. I had to guess and of course I guessed wrong. I spent more time correcting that problem than I spent making the box in the first place. So don't make the same mistake I did!

 

[Blackswanwood]

Wealden do a 6 wing 1.5mm groover which when used on the router table gives a very clean cut. I have some 1.5mm strips that I insert in each of the first three cuts made to ensure when doing the final one everything stays aligned.

If you use a hand saw or band saw the saw marks need to planed or sanded out. This isn't difficult but if you end up being out by even a very small amount and are using quality hinges made to a tight tolerance it can be difficult to get a perfect alignment of lid and box body.

If using the bandsaw method a tall fence makes it easier and more accurate (again imho).

 

[Steve Maskery]

I mean this in the nicest possible way.......I am genuinely curious how any one could struggle cutting 4 straight lines with a hand saw (tenon saw, gent's saw, or even a Japanes saw). What's the issue?

Well in my case it's seeing what I'm doing...

 

[marineboy]

Wealden do a 6 wing 1.5mm groover which when used on the router table gives a very clean cut. I have some 1.5mm strips that I insert in each of the first three cuts made to ensure when doing the final one everything stays aligned.

If you use a hand saw or band saw the saw marks need to planed or sanded out. This isn't difficult but if you end up being out by even a very small amount and are using quality hinges made to a tight tolerance it can be difficult to get a perfect alignment of lid and box body.

If using the bandsaw method a tall fence makes it easier and more accurate (again imho).

That’s exactly the method I’ve used in the past, with that cutter. Works extremely well.

 

[Woodbloke]

Usually a Japanese hand saw or it has been known for me to use the band saw on smaller boxes. Separating the lid from the box isn't difficult; getting the two to match afterwards is a bit trickier - Rob

 

[AndyT]

I've remembered that another method that I used once was this.
Before assembly, cut a groove on the inside faces of the boards, halfway through their thickness. Use a plough plane, router etc to your preference.
After assembly, cut matching grooves on the outside, so the tops of the grooves coincide with the bottoms of the inside grooves. If the lid doesn't separate directly you may need to run a small sharp knife around to cut the last sliver.
The result should be a step on the lid which fits over a matching step in the base and holds the lid on. Both grooves can be guided by a fence, referenced from the face edges of the boards.

I think Roy Underhill demonstrated this in an episode called "The Eleven Grooved Box" (where all the other joints were made by grooving as well).

 

[Mike G]

I like that idea, Andy. That would obviate the necessity to line the box.

 

[Dr.Al]

That's a great idea

 

[AndyT]

I've been and checked for the construction detail I was describing, but couldn't find where I saw it. It's not what Roy Underhill uses.
I thought it might be in "Planecraft" but it's not. However, that book does have this handy diagram, showing almost exactly the same construction. It features an internal groove, which becomes a pair of rebates when the lid is separated, and holds a thin slip of wood that catches the lid in place. (Roy makes a nicer lid, held in a groove, not just rebated.)



The relevant video is here, for anyone who doesn't mind a bit of thread drift:

The Woodwright's Shop | The Eleven Grooved Box | Season 32 | Episode 2

Host Roy Underhill shows how to make a tidy oak box using grooves and splines.

video.pbsnc.org

 

[StevieB]

I mean this in the nicest possible way.......I am genuinely curious how any one could struggle cutting 4 straight lines with a hand saw (tenon saw, gent's saw, or even a Japanes saw). What's the issue? With a little help to get started, and on the first corner, my weak-as-water daughter managed it pretty well on her first ever try, so I'm puzzled as to what the perceived difficulties are.

For me personally, I guess it is lack of practice. I get so little time in the workshop that in my head I achieve perfection, but in reality not so much. They are not horrendous, and two I gave as xmas gifts were well received but I still saw the flaws in them where lid and base did not fit as I would have wanted. With a handsaw I would still need to plane all surfaces flush I feel. A table saw should be exactly correct all the way round, but a 0.5mm 'step' on one corner is not uncommon (almost certainly my technique as it is usually the 4th and final side) and then I have remedial work to do. As I say, in my head I am producing craftsman quality work, but in terms of practice I probably get a day a month, if that, to properly spend in the workshop. I am not after the perfect piece of kit, my tools are mostly 2nd hand and functional and I am certainly not blaming them (although I have long been suspicious of my bandsaw!), but there are many ways to skin a cat as this thread shows, so I was curious as to how others did it.

Thanks for all the responses, it is certain that I have a lot to learn still!

 

[Woodbloke]

For me personally, I guess it is lack of practice. I get so little time in the workshop that in my head I achieve perfection, but in reality not so much. They are not horrendous, and two I gave as xmas gifts were well received but I still saw the flaws in them where lid and base did not fit as I would have wanted. With a handsaw I would still need to plane all surfaces flush I feel. A table saw should be exactly correct all the way round, but a 0.5mm 'step' on one corner is not uncommon (almost certainly my technique as it is usually the 4th and final side) and then I have remedial work to do. As I say, in my head I am producing craftsman quality work, but in terms of practice I probably get a day a month, if that, to properly spend in the workshop. I am not after the perfect piece of kit, my tools are mostly 2nd hand and functional and I am certainly not blaming them (although I have long been suspicious of my bandsaw!), but there are many ways to skin a cat as this thread shows, so I was curious as to how others did it.

Thanks for all the responses, it is certain that I have a lot to learn still!

This isn't actually the most accurate way to level and mate the two matching surfaces and certainly one that Andrew Crawford doesn't use. Instead, I glue sanding discs to a dead flat surface (a bit of mdf) then upend the box and lid and carefully sand away the saw marks until the both mate. It's quite easy to do but does require some subtle finger pressure. Contentious I know but it does work - Rob

 

[Richard]

The technique I use for separating the lid from the box base is saw off the lid with a handsaw to a gauge line followed by a planing technique known as spanning. Basically, this means treating the sawn edges of both the lid and the base as one continuous length. So, using a long plane such as a no 4, 5, 6, 7 or 8, depending upon the length of the box's edges and start planing along one edge. As you approach the corner start skewing the plane so that the iron's cutting edge passes over both edges that make the corner. Then, leaving the rear of the plane sole on your first edge continue along the second edge ensuring the iron's cutting edge is always over that second edge. Gradually swing the rear end of the plane's sole to be closer in line with the second edge. As the second corner is approached, skew around this corner as per the first corner and work around every corner in the same manner.

Essentially, the plane is never lifted off any of the edges and keeps circling (spanning) passing over low spots and taking cuts from high spots until a continuous shaving is removed. At this point the job should be done and you can move on to doing the partner to the part you've just got flat. The technique is really an adaptation of the one used to get a straight edge on a long board. I've always found the trickiest bit with this technique is fixing the lid or box base firmly on the bench enabling the planing to be undertaken. An example or two below. Slainte.

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[Mike G]

.....Essentially, the plane is never lifted off any of the edges and keeps circling (spanning) passing over low spots and taking cuts from high spots until a continuous shaving is removed.....

Unknotting your arms afterwards, though, is something of a chore.

 

[Richard]

Unknotting your arms afterwards, though, is something of a chore.

It could in theory put you into a bit of a spin, I suppose, but I keep letting go of the plane and changing my grip. I'm very boring that way. Slainte.