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Shed doors

J

John Brown

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Thinking of making a pair of ledged and braced doors out of 20mm t and g larch, to match the waney edged larch cladding, and because I can source locally.
Any thoughts?
 
What kind of shed is it? If it's quite substansial (not your typical B&Q nonsense) I'd probably rather build a framed ledged and braced door.
 
Yes, thanks Malc. I believe I've looked at those before. I was planning on using pre-milled boards, and maybe some Douglas Fir for the ledges and braces, as it looks pretty similar, and I can also source locally.
Have you experienced problems with movement of the timber? My temporary doors, which I thought might do for a year or so, have expanded so much that I will have to re site the bolts, as I can't saw any more off without hitting metal.
 
Trevanion":3jgee48g said:
What kind of shed is it? If it's quite substansial (not your typical B&Q nonsense) I'd probably rather build a framed ledged and braced door.
Click to expand...
It is way more substantial than a B&Q shed.
I may well go for framed, ledged and braced, but still have the question about whether 20mm larch T & G would be ok for the boards.
 
John Brown":1dezeuug said:
I may well go for framed, ledged and braced, but still have the question about whether 20mm larch T & G would be ok for the boards.
Click to expand...

If it's straight grained and slow-ish grown there shouldn't be any serious issues, It's quite a durable timber otherwise.

A framed door is just easier to fit and seal up properly, a little harder to make.
 
John Brown":2tlju4et said:
Yes, thanks Malc. I believe I've looked at those before. I was planning on using pre-milled boards, and maybe some Douglas Fir for the ledges and braces, as it looks pretty similar, and I can also source locally.
Have you experienced problems with movement of the timber? My temporary doors, which I thought might do for a year or so, have expanded so much that I will have to re site the bolts, as I can't saw any more off without hitting metal.
Click to expand...


My temporary doors were made from OSB3 and 50x25 roofing battens, painted with Bedec Barn paint. They were good as gold, so much so, I've dismantled them and not thrown away the OSB or timber, not that I'm hoarder, you understand. :eusa-whistle:

I bought the larch as 50x100 sawn from the mill and stickied them for 6 months behind the workshop before I started milling them. Because they're outside, I think they've equalised and haven't moved so far.
 
These were the style I copied.

[youtube]E1E0QwdyVzo[/youtube]
 
Thanks. 35mm SS seem to be hard to find with Torx head, but Ironmongery Direct have Timco Pozi. I will order some as soon as I have made sure the larch is still available.
 
Another thing...
As I understand it, I should fix( nail or screw) each board centrally, one fixing to each of the three ledges, and one to each brace, so that the boards are free to move with the seasons.
But the ledges will also expand and contract widthwise. Doesn't this compromise the rigidity of the triangular brace design? Or at least make notching the ledges cosmetic?
 
I would do half laps for the vertical joins, then nail adjacent to the join so that each nail secures not only the board it is in, but the board trapped by the half-lap. Also, use a wire nail, and drill a deep countersink for the hole on the ledge side of the board, to facilitate movement. This is particularly important in a hard wood such as oak. Nails are best left over-long, then folded over on the ledge. I wouldn't nail in the middle of the board because this wont resist cupping. Pinning the edges as I described will allow seasonal movement whilst also resisting the tendency of the boards to cup.
 
Thanks Mike. I don't know how to reply. I already said I was planning to use pre- machined 20 mm t and g larch. I don't have the budget or the skill to do what you'd do.
So I'm looking at simple ledged and braced, as I would like to overlap my door aperture. I appreciate all help and advice, but I have to work within my budget and skill set. Both of which are small. Just like you with your TV lift, which I would approach from an entirely different angle.
So within the constraints of simple t an g 20mm larch, and simple ledged and braced, is there a fixing pattern or scheme that will minimize the effect of ledge shrinkage?
 
John Brown":2rokpipn said:
Thanks. 35mm SS seem to be hard to find with Torx head, but Ironmongery Direct have Timco Pozi. I will order some as soon as I have made sure the larch is still available.
Click to expand...
Not sure if 40mm is too long for you but I got a few boxes of these a day or so ago: https://www.its.co.uk/pd/1087000500...ews-5-x-40mm-Box-of-200-_SPX1087000500403.htm - £5 for 200 5x40 Spax stainless steel screws, which is a bargain (although PZ2, not torx). They may have other sizes in the sale too.
 
I'm a bit late! Not the cheapest in the world but Accu do countersunk Torx wood screws:

https://www.accu.co.uk/en/740-torx-...rch_category=740&orderby=ranking&orderway=asc

Ignore that it's called a "chipboard" screw, I've never understood the difference but I've been using "chipboard" screws in real wood for years without issue :lol:

You may already know this but with Stainless Steel screws you absolutely must pre-drill at least the shank diameter of the screw and it helps to lubricate the threads with a bit of wax. SS is very liable to snappage and I will not use the same screw twice, if I've driven in a screw, tightened it and happened to pull it back out I chuck it away and put a new one in as I've found 9 times out of 10 when you go to re-drive the screw in it snaps on you and you start saying a bunch of nasty words.
 
John Brown":2yvobedc said:
Thanks Mike. I don't know how to reply. I already said I was planning to use pre- machined 20 mm t and g larch. I don't have the budget or the skill to do what you'd do.
So I'm looking at simple ledged and braced, as I would like to overlap my door aperture. I appreciate all help and advice, but I have to work within my budget and skill set. Both of which are small. Just like you with your TV lift, which I would approach from an entirely different angle.
So within the constraints of simple t an g 20mm larch, and simple ledged and braced, is there a fixing pattern or scheme that will minimize the effect of ledge shrinkage?
Click to expand...

The T&G has exactly the same principle as half lapped boards (in that the edge of one board holds down the edge of the adjacent board)..........and your door is more expensive and better than mine!! I used crappy sawn pine.

The same principle applies to the nailing pattern: nail about an inch away from the same edge of each board. This ensures that both edges of the board are retained against the ledge, but one edge of each board is free to expand and contract with the weather. As it is winter, and the boards will be at their widest now, when you make the door you should pull the boards up closely against each other. If you were making the door in the middle of summer, you'd leave gaps (ie you'd be able to see the tongues).

Mine is screwed, and there is no harm in that. However, if doing it again I would nail instead. There's just a little more flex.
 
"You may already know this but with Stainless Steel screws you absolutely must pre-drill at least the shank diameter of the screw and it helps to lubricate the threads with a bit of wax."

Thanks, Trevanion, I didn't know that. Useful advice.

"The T&G has exactly the same principle as half lapped boards (in that the edge of one board holds down the edge of the adjacent board)..........and your door is more expensive and better than mine!! I used crappy sawn pine.

The same principle applies to the nailing pattern: nail about an inch away from the same edge of each board. This ensures that both edges of the board are retained against the ledge, but one edge of each board is free to expand and contract with the weather. As it is winter, and the boards will be at their widest now, when you make the door you should pull the boards up closely against each other. If you were making the door in the middle of summer, you'd leave gaps (ie you'd be able to see the tongues)."

Thanks, Mike, I now understand what you were trying to tell me about half lap joints on the verticals. I mistakenly thought you were talking about a framed L&B construction. That's good advice about not nailing in the centre, The cupping issue wouldn't have occurred to me, but it makes perfect sense.
 
As the ledges shrink in width only, like all timber, they don't really affect anything as they change.

I didn't say explicitly before, but each board gets fixed twice at each ledge...one above the other. I'll see if I can find a photo:

rpb2z9s.png

Posh internal oak doors, but the same principle. The nailing pattern is quite different with these really wide boards, so ignore that. My point was the pair of nails on each line at each ledge.
 
Thanks. I wish I'd ordered more screws now.
Ironmongery Direct are great, but they only seem to have the expensive next day delivery.

Just did a recount. I make it 150 screws. So my box of 200 will suffice.
 
Now's the time to start building up a stock of screws, John, rather than buy them job-to-job. There are some pretty good deals to be had on big assorted collections of screws, then just top up as you run a little low on anything.
 
Mike G":3l3xe0j4 said:
Now's the time to start building up a stock of screws, John, rather than buy them job-to-job. There are some pretty good deals to be had on big assorted collections of screws, then just top up as you run a little low on anything.
Click to expand...
I have various assorted collections of screws, Mike, just didn't have any 35mm stainless.
However, I have noticed, over the years, that I rarely have the exact size I want for a job. I think it's like buying liquorice allsorts, all the good ones(the all black ones are the only ones I like) get eaten, and you end up with nothing left but the coconut one, and those weird bobbly ones.
You're probably right, though. I'll have a look round for some deals.
 
:lol: You don't like the coconut ones? What kind of weirdo are you? :lol:
 
Mike G":3vkgsktt said:
:lol: You don't like the coconut ones? What kind of weirdo are you? :lol:
Click to expand...
I'm a Pontefract cake weirdo. My father grew up in Pontefract, and we went there every summer to stay with my aunt and uncle and cousins, then after a week in Pontefract we went for a week in Scarborough. In my dad's ash framed, fabric bodied 1930 Riley Monaco.
 
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