Smart meter

[Lurker]

British Gas have told ( note not asked) they are going to fit a smart meter.
I have been resisting for a long while due to the reports about reliability.
Can they force this on us?
Am I worrying needlessly?

 

[Woodbloke]

Our 'leccy is with Octopus, who informed us a while ago that we needed a new meter, which they duly installed; it also contains a SM but at the same time, the gas meter was also replaced with a smart one, so as I understand it the actual important bit is inside the meter wot talks via t'interweb to BG and Octopus but they also left us with a nice little visual display, so we can see what's being used - Rob

 

[RogerS]

British Gas have told ( note not asked) they are going to fit a smart meter.
I have been resisting for a long while due to the reports about reliability.
Can they force this on us?
Am I worrying needlessly?

Have they said why? Is your current meter outside its lifespan? Even if it is and they don’t have any traditional meters left (more than likely) you can still insist that they supply the smart meter to you in Dumb mode

 

[RogerS]

Our 'leccy is with Octopus, who informed us a while ago that we needed a new meter, which they duly installed; it also contains a SM but at the same time, the gas meter was also replaced with a smart one, so as I understand it the actual important bit is inside the meter wot talks via t'interweb to BG and Octopus but they also left us with a nice little visual display, so we can see what's being used - Rob

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I have always been against Smart meters because of their remote switchoff capability. But as I was contemplating a homebrew battery storage system to charge up overnight when prices were peanuts and then to use that power during the day, a smart meter was needed. But probably won’t get round to the battery setup so stuck with it. Even if I asked to go Dumb it leaves it still vulnerable to bad actors.

The one advantage is that I remotely switch on the fan heater in my remote gym half hour or so before I go in. I can look at the display (like yours) and at the next sampling time (30 secs IIRC) I can see it increase which means the WiFi power switch is working

 

[TrimTheKing]

I really don't understand the reticence to have a smart meter, I'm yet to see a convincing argument against having one. What reports have you heard on reliability Lurker? The only issues I've heard about are relating to it taking some time to migrate if you move suppliers, and all that means is the smart functionality stops reporting back your meter usage and you go back to manual reading for a while. If that does happen, then you're in no worse position than you are right now, and the flow of electricity into your house doesn't stop, so apart from a bit of a pain to make a phone call or two to sort out there really is no issue.

I've heard people talk about data concerns and cyber attacks. Well if someone can tell anything meaningful from the electricity usage in my house then fair play to them, and it isn't attached to my home network in any way, so there's no risk there.

I'm more than happy to listen to any argument otherwise, but tbh all I've heard so far are baseless scaremongering with no foundation. Happy to be convinced otherwise though.

What I do know is smart metering is vital to better understanding people's usage, to help regulate the amount of energy we need in this country, when we need it, and who needs it at any given time. Data is King/Queen, and the MWHH initiative that came in recently goes even further to giving us that visibility and contol over availability.

I've had my SM for about 5 years and apart from when I swapped over from Octopus from my previous supplier, when it took a couple of months and a few phone calls to get the SM & in house display to work properly with Octopus, I've not given it a single seconds thought or had a single second of issue.

 

[Accipiter]

Had ours put in about 4 (?) years ago... if anything I find it somewhat helpful to see what my/our daily use has been *should I so wish to look*... especially in winter for the heating used.

The only PITR has been the odd time when the mini display has frozen. All I do to restart it is remove the battery for a few seconds, put it back, plug in and skip the START/INTRO screen. I leave it plugged into the mains because its battery is blah for keeping any charge if unplugged. I've heard many folk just don't bother with the mini display and just put it in a drawer and forget about it... life goes on regarding the energy you'll use anyway so...

 

[akirk]

the obvious potential negative is when we start to run out of power and the utility companies use their analysis of your usage of power to choose when to feed you more or less power...

having said that - if we get to that state a dumb meter might mean you just don't get power!

I have smart meters - no issues with them

 

[Sheffield Tony]

There was an era when, in the rush to install them, barely trained fitters forgot little steps like tightening the terminals.

 

[MattS]

I believe first generation smart meters were the ones which couldn't move between suppliers. An outrageous but not surprising waste of money.

New ones transfer fine as far as I am aware. You can use it as a dumb meter, we had an awful fitter and the screen never worked and it sits somewhere in a drawer as I had no interest in using it. We get electricity figures via our solar system and also the Octopus app.

One thing with the gas meters - I don't think our house is unusual: gas meter on front wall, electrical meter in kitchen and house is brick and block (including internal walls). The gas meter connects occasionally, often enough to get data through, and I do occasional readings but I couldn't rely on it if I did want to know daily usage.

 

[Mike G]

I really don't understand the reticence to have a smart meter,.....

The Russians. The Iranians.

They're doing whatever they can to deniably make a nuisance of themselves to us. Hacking into our electricity distribution system and causing a few days of chaos will change the conversation about smart meters.

 

[RogerS]

the obvious potential negative is when we start to run out of power and the utility companies use their analysis of your usage of power to choose when to feed you more or less power...

having said that - if we get to that state a dumb meter might mean you just don't get power!

I have smart meters - no issues with them

I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'more or less power'. You either get around 230-240v or they switch you off and you get nothing.

 

[RogerS]

I really don't understand the reticence to have a smart meter, I'm yet to see a convincing argument against having one. What reports have you heard on reliability Lurker? The only issues I've heard about are relating to it taking some time to migrate if you move suppliers, and all that means is the smart functionality stops reporting back your meter usage and you go back to manual reading for a while. If that does happen, then you're in no worse position than you are right now, and the flow of electricity into your house doesn't stop, so apart from a bit of a pain to make a phone call or two to sort out there really is no issue.

I've heard people talk about data concerns and cyber attacks. Well if someone can tell anything meaningful from the electricity usage in my house then fair play to them, and it isn't attached to my home network in any way, so there's no risk there.

I'm more than happy to listen to any argument otherwise, but tbh all I've heard so far are baseless scaremongering with no foundation. Happy to be convinced otherwise though.

What I do know is smart metering is vital to better understanding people's usage, to help regulate the amount of energy we need in this country, when we need it, and who needs it at any given time. Data is King/Queen, and the MWHH initiative that came in recently goes even further to giving us that visibility and contol over availability.

I've had my SM for about 5 years and apart from when I swapped over from Octopus from my previous supplier, when it took a couple of months and a few phone calls to get the SM & in house display to work properly with Octopus, I've not given it a single seconds thought or had a single second of issue.

I'm not worried about someone hacking my smart meter. What I am concerned about is that the smart meter can be used remotely to disconnect your power. So were someone to hack into your supplier and issue commands to all their smart meters to disconnect power ......

 

[Mike G]

.......were someone to hack into your supplier and issue commands to all their smart meters to disconnect power ......

The Russians. The Iranians. They want to do it, and we all know that.

 

[Hypnotic Chimera]

I really don't understand the reticence to have a smart meter, I'm yet to see a convincing argument against having one. What reports have you heard on reliability Lurker? The only issues I've heard about are relating to it taking some time to migrate if you move suppliers, and all that means is the smart functionality stops reporting back your meter usage and you go back to manual reading for a while. If that does happen, then you're in no worse position than you are right now, and the flow of electricity into your house doesn't stop, so apart from a bit of a pain to make a phone call or two to sort out there really is no issue.

I've heard people talk about data concerns and cyber attacks. Well if someone can tell anything meaningful from the electricity usage in my house then fair play to them, and it isn't attached to my home network in any way, so there's no risk there.

I'm more than happy to listen to any argument otherwise, but tbh all I've heard so far are baseless scaremongering with no foundation. Happy to be convinced otherwise though.

What I do know is smart metering is vital to better understanding people's usage, to help regulate the amount of energy we need in this country, when we need it, and who needs it at any given time. Data is King/Queen, and the MWHH initiative that came in recently goes even further to giving us that visibility and contol over availability.

I've had my SM for about 5 years and apart from when I swapped over from Octopus from my previous supplier, when it took a couple of months and a few phone calls to get the SM & in house display to work properly with Octopus, I've not given it a single seconds thought or had a single second of issue.

I'm half with you and half not.

I'd propose that it's only a matter of time before the (private equity) electricity companies use the data that they gather to leverage greater profits.

I challenge you to argue against what I've just written.

Other than that, smart meters are great

 

[Gill]

I had to take monthly electricity and gas readings from my two externally mounted meters and submit them manually. This gave me pause to make comparisons and monitor my energy consumption. A couple of years ago I was persuaded to install a smart meter to replace them. I haven’t looked at the smart meter since. For all I know, it’s giving the Chinese details of how I cook hot and sour prawns.

 

[duke]

We have a smart meter for our Hydro and I find the biggest bonus with it is that when I am running the backup generator due to a power outage the meter will have indicator lights letting me know when it is back up and running. Which is handy at night so I can shut the geny off and save on fuel. Keep in mind this happens at least six times a year, the longest being one week. This is what we deal with in a forested rural area.

 

[marineboy]

The Russians. The Iranians. They want to do it, and we all know that.

I’m not sure that a smart meter contains a circuit breaker to enable it to do that.

 

[wallace]

For me I've always been concerned about suppliers fiddling the books so to speak. I've heard stories of people having big increases of usage once a smart meter is installed. Octopus says my meters are out of certification, and I should book an install. I submit readings every month and last month used an extra 200kwh somewhere.

 

[Mike G]

I’m not sure that a smart meter contains a circuit breaker to enable it to do that.

Not the smart meter itself, but the system. Hack the system, switch off the smart meters........

 

[Lons]

For me I've always been concerned about suppliers fiddling the books so to speak. I've heard stories of people having big increases of usage once a smart meter is installed. Octopus says my meters are out of certification, and I should book an install. I submit readings every month and last month used an extra 200kwh somewhere.

We don't have gas so electricity meter only and for many years I've religiously read and submitted the readings which suits me just fine, The meter cupboard is easy to access and taked no more than a couple of minutes. Octopus send me an email reminder. I keep all the date on a spreadsheet so I'd immediately spot any unusual useage and investigate. It's never happened.

I get the usual, "your meter has exceded it's life, please book an appointment to have a smart meter fitted". They can go fish and I emailed them long ago and got confirmation that they can't force me to do that - yet. If it ain't broke I have no intention of "fixing" it.

 

[RogerS]

I’m not sure that a smart meter contains a circuit breaker to enable it to do that.

Yes it does

 

[RogerS]

For me I've always been concerned about suppliers fiddling the books so to speak. I've heard stories of people having big increases of usage once a smart meter is installed. Octopus says my meters are out of certification, and I should book an install. I submit readings every month and last month used an extra 200kwh somewhere.

That's a large lump of missing electricity

 

[Lurker]

Thanks for all the replies.
My only concern was the accuracy of the meter, or as Wallace puts it, fiddling the books.
I think I was worrying too much.

 

[wallace]

That's a large lump of missing electricity

The peaks are 2 month usage except the last one which is just the month . Im a bit puzzled by it.

 

[RogerS]

Wallace, if you had an Octopus Smart meter then you could have both the normal display and also the advanced gizmo that shows energy consumption at a very fine detail

 

[marineboy]

Yes it does

Didn’t know that. Every day a school day.

 

[Inspector]

Saskpower (the only utility in the province) came in the spring and changed my 10ish year old meter for one that they read by wifi. Now I don't have to bundle up, trundle out in the cold and thigh deep drifting snow to get the reading to submit. They also don't have someone driving to the house every three or four months to read it with binoculars to confirm my readings. The new bills are the same as the old readings from past months. No conspiracies or sneaky corporate shenanigans here so I'm good.

Pete

 

[RogerS]

Saskpower (the only utility in the province) came in the spring and changed my 10ish year old meter for one that they read by wifi. Now I don't have to bundle up, trundle out in the cold and thigh deep drifting snow to get the reading to submit. They also don't have someone driving to the house every three or four months to read it with binoculars to confirm my readings. The new bills are the same as the old readings from past months. No conspiracies or sneaky corporate shenanigans here so I'm good.

Pete

Pedant here, Pete ...

SaskPower smart meters use a two-way radio frequency (RF) telecommunications network, specifically utilizing the Sensus FlexNet long-range radio network infrastructure, to transmit consumption data. Not wi-fi as we know it.

 

[Inspector]

Pedant here, Pete ...

SaskPower smart meters use a two-way radio frequency (RF) telecommunications network, specifically utilizing the Sensus FlexNet long-range radio network infrastructure, to transmit consumption data. Not wi-fi as we know it.

I sit corrected and enlightened.

Pete

 

[TrimTheKing]

The Russians. The Iranians.

They're doing whatever they can to deniably make a nuisance of themselves to us. Hacking into our electricity distribution system and causing a few days of chaos will change the conversation about smart meters.

To get into your SM they'd need to get into my network first. If they've done that then you're f*cked either way Mike...

 

[TrimTheKing]

I'm half with you and half not.

I'd propose that it's only a matter of time before the (private equity) electricity companies use the data that they gather to leverage greater profits.

I challenge you to argue against what I've just written.

Other than that, smart meters are great

What data do they get from a SM that they don't get from a regular meter reading, other than more granular readings?

 

[TrimTheKing]

I'm not worried about someone hacking my smart meter. What I am concerned about is that the smart meter can be used remotely to disconnect your power. So were someone to hack into your supplier and issue commands to all their smart meters to disconnect power ......

If someone has hacked into the IT network Roger, then they'd have to hack into multiple other networks through multiple layers of FW's and security before they get anywhere near anything that controls SM's. If they've done that then they already have direct access to the electricity network switching and control, so I think they have bigger fish to fry than your SM...

That's not to say someone isn't trying to do that right now, my point being if they're hacking in then they've got a bigger agenda than switching off individual or even multiple SM's, and regardless, if they're into that network then they would be turning off substations, not focussing on SM's.

 

[Hypnotic Chimera]

What data do they get from a SM that they don't get from a regular meter reading, other than more granular readings?

Profit-hungry electricity suppliers (and let's be real here - they all are - their PRIMARY motivation is to the profit. Supplying you/me/us with electricity is a distant secondary concern for them) can use the overall data that they obtain from the entire network usage - over both time and aggregated over all users - to leverage pricing strategies that put the consumer at a disadvantage. And that's the *least* nefarious use that can be made from the data.
So it isn't targeting *you* in particular - but you are now just giving your data away for free when you have a smart meter.

 

[Distinterior]

Very recently ( just over a month back) I had a new SM fitted at my business workshop.
The original SM (installed about 4 years ago) had decided it was only going to send it's data when it felt like it ( only about 30% of the time).
I contacted my business energy supplier and they arranged to send an engineer to fit the new meter.

The guy arrived on the agreed date & time and did the swop-over without any issues.
During the final commissioning, I made him a cup of Tea and we got chatting about various things and I asked him about whether the SM could be turned On/Off remotely....Without any hesitation....He confirmed that it could!

He stated that it was done very, very rarely and only as a last resort against "serial non-payers"......

He also told me, that the amount of premises that he now has to attend, to make safe and reconnect a meter due to fraudulent bypassing, has grown massively......Some premises, he has had to visit many times over, as the tenants state that they "don't believe they should have to pay anything at all for electricity "....

 

[Blackswanwood]

He stated that it was done very, very rarely and only as a last resort against "serial non-payers"......

There are a whole host of regulatory hurdles that have to be met before an electricity company can go down this route. The regulation also precludes them from switching the supply off to vulnerable customers. It's the same process they have to use as with the old meters but it removes the cost and hassle of needing access. Frankly, as that cost gets absorbed by the prices paid by those who pay their bills I'd argue it's a good thing.

Profit-hungry electricity suppliers (and let's be real here - they all are - their PRIMARY motivation is to the profit. Supplying you/me/us with electricity is a distant secondary concern for them) can use the overall data that they obtain from the entire network usage - over both time and aggregated over all users - to leverage pricing strategies that put the consumer at a disadvantage. And that's the *least* nefarious use that can be made from the data.
So it isn't targeting *you* in particular - but you are now just giving your data away for free when you have a smart meter.

Being careful to not stray into the area of politics ...fair profit isn't a bad thing and all companies use data to inform how they price. I'm unconvinced giving customers a better understanding of how their bill racks up (which is what a smart meter provides) isn't a good thing and feel that as the suppliers are under plenty of scrutiny they'll struggle to start price gouging.

If pricing is the least nefarious use what are the others that could cause harm?

 

[Hypnotic Chimera]

There are a whole host of regulatory hurdles that have to be met before an electricity company can go down this route. The regulation also precludes them from switching the supply off to vulnerable customers. It's the same process they have to use as with the old meters but it removes the cost and hassle of needing access. Frankly, as that cost gets absorbed by the prices paid by those who pay their bills I'd argue it's a good thing.



Being careful to not stray into the area of politics ...fair profit isn't a bad thing and all companies use data to inform how they price. I'm unconvinced giving customers a better understanding of how their bill racks up (which is what a smart meter provides) isn't a good thing and feel that as the suppliers are under plenty of scrutiny they'll struggle to start price gouging.

If pricing is the least nefarious use what are the others that could cause harm?

Cheers - talking about greedy corporations isn't politics, is it???

I understand where you're coming from about corporations making fair profits - that's clearly not a big deal - but when the corporation has all the data and the consumer has none, other than their own, the corporation is at a huge advantage and can organise pricings to it's advantage and to the consumers detriment - earning more money without taking any risk or improving the service, or even making any investment. Free data can be turned into "free" profit. I make a prediction right here and now - that's exactly what will happen.

Not every corporation is the same, granted, and I think Octopus is actually using the data it already has to the benefit of the customers as well as the company, by tempting people to spread demand and therefore not incur the marginal pricing costs of highest demand periods they would otherwise have to buy (versus the fixed price they charge to consumers) - this works for both sides in that dynamic. Corporation avoids the marginal increased cost in high demand period (equals more profit for company) while also informing customers to shift consumption if they can and offering an incentive to do so (equals less profit for the company) - and this is a win-win rather than a blunt instrument. But not all companies are as "scrupulous"...