smart meters

[Robert]

Came home to an email from Bulb Energy saying they have to change my meter(s) due to age and would like to fit smart meters for electric and gas using new version 2 types that don't have problems of earlier ones.
Also says I can request dumb meters as replacements if I really don't want smart meters.

Don't know what to think really. I remembered something about problems changing supplier with smart meters but the email says that was type1 not the new ones.

I'm not interested in watching a display to see how much things cost to run so not seeing much advantages beyond meter readings but no disadvantages either so why not?

So any reason not to go smart?

 

[9fingers]

There are a few worse case gotchas with smart metering.

Unlike dumb meters, smart meters have the ability to cut off the supply remotely.
This should not happen unless you don't pay the bill after numerous demands but you could be cut off by incompetance, a technical error or a terrorist event.
The coding on the metering system could be cracked by nasty people with the time to devote to it.
Hopefully a rare occurance but it can' happen with dumb meters.

We know that the govt rollout of smart metering is NOT as advertised to save you money but part of a strategy to manage our groaning grid infrasturcture and lack of investment in new generation capacity.
Two methods. The first will be time variable tariffs. Not like E7 to give you cheap power at night but to give you expensive power at peak times when the UK generation capacity is stretched.
The second is load shedding which is where the remote controlled switches come in to play aloowing local hot spots to be switched off selectively.

My feeling is if you don't mind doing your own meter reads and sending them in and you don't want to monitor consumption from your armchair then stay dumb.

NB the data cannot be extracted from smart meters to your home computer yet or if ever.
Meter readers will still call for the alledged "safety check" which means to give a quick visual check against fraud and disparity of reading from their records.

At some stage when there are just a small hardcore of smart refusniks left, I predict we will see discounts offered to go smart but that is a few years down the road. These may or may not be worth waiting for?

If you do go smart, make absolutely sure you get a smets2 meter which allow tariff switching without going dumb. The energy companies are incentivised to fit smart meters irrespective of type and there are still stocks of smets1 meters about and unbelievably they are still being fitted.

Bob

 

[RogerS]

Bob is pretty much bang on the money. The only thing I'd add is that the network infrastructure that communicates between the smart meter and Galactic HQ is split into two geographic areas in the country.

The North network is still not Fit for Purpose IIRC but the Southern one is OK.

 

[Duncan A]

Some energy suppliers are already reserving the best deals for customers with smart meters i.e. penalising those with non-smart meters. Before deciding, it may be worth checking out the deals offered by potential suppliers.
Duncan

 

[AndyP]

Surprised that they are not compulsory as they are here.

 

[Robert]

All interesting stuff thanks.

Just found this https://bulb.co.uk/smart/ which is a tariff option for smart meter users.

image from the site

Says joining that tariff is a beta test opt in nothing more at present.

Still on the fence at the mo. I'm not a technophobe with new technology so the big brother options don't scare me and I do intend to pay the bills

That tariff is food for thought though.

 

[MY63]

We have had a smart meter for a few years and it works really well I can go into the kitchen in the dark without turning on the light As for reducing the consumption of gas or electricity it is a complete waste off time. Our old meters were out of date and required replacing according to our supplier so we had no choice dumb meters were never mentioned.
I used to either phone the readings in or enter them online without issue once a year a guy would come and read the meter.

 

[Mike G]

I'd just add to Bob's excellent post that if the electric company can switch off your supply remotely, then so can anyone who infiltrates the system. If you want your power supply in the hands of Uncle Vladimir, then sign up tomorrow.......

 

[RogerS]

...
I'm not a technophobe with new technology so the big brother options don't scare me and I do intend to pay the bills

....

Yebbut, you forgot the hackers switching you off

 

[RogerS]

I'd just add to Bob's excellent post that if the electric company can switch off your supply remotely, then so can anyone who infiltrates the system. If you want your power supply in the hands of Uncle Vladimir, then sign up tomorrow.......

:text-+1:

 

[Woodbloke]

Came home to an email from Bulb Energy saying they have to change my meter(s) due to age and would like to fit smart meters for electric and gas using new version 2 types that don't have problems of earlier ones.
Also says I can request dumb meters as replacements if I really don't want smart meters.

Don't know what to think really. I remembered something about problems changing supplier with smart meters but the email says that was type1 not the new ones.

I'm not interested in watching a display to see how much things cost to run so not seeing much advantages beyond meter readings but no disadvantages either so why not?

So any reason not to go smart?

We're with Bulb as well and recently had had the same type of sales push for the next generation of meters, but as far as I'm aware you're under no legal obligation to have the things fitted. As far as I can see, they offer precious little in the way of benefits; if it was guaranteed that they'd cut your 'leccy and gas bills by 30% we might have been interested but as it was, I politely told them to shove their offer - Rob

 

[RogerS]

....you're under no legal obligation to have the things fitted. ...

Correcto mundo, Rob.

 

[Woodster]

Apart from “accidentally” being cut off remotely I also don't like the idea of a “variable” tariff at times of peek use.

 

[9fingers]

Apart from “accidentally” being cut off remotely I also don't like the idea of a “variable” tariff at times of peek use.

It is not definite that they will implement peak time tariffs but once they have a goodly number of smart meters installed, and subject to network traffic limitations they can read your meter every few minutes at least so they would have the means to tinker with time variant tariffs.

This country has precious little reserve generation power when we get a cold winter.

This site http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ is quite interesting to watch the peak demand dial top left and see how often it gets into the orange and near red during the winter. I think it auto updates very 5 mins or so. It is run by a private enthusiast harvesting publically available data and presenting it in digestible form.
If you are interested I suggest you bookmark it and look now and then when the TV is dire. :lol:

We have almost stopped using coal and no new nukes coming online. When the sun goes down at 3-4pm in depth of winter and the wind slows down we have very little margin.
Our Govts of whatever colour refuse to make capital investment in power generation but instead they try to use grants and schemes to persuade others to invest and cooked up the smart metering and solar PV FIT (now defunct for new installations) to manage the situation. the cost of all these are added back into the energy prices we all pay.

Bob

 

[Robert]

....you're under no legal obligation to have the things fitted. ...

Correcto mundo, Rob.

Here's the email I have mentioning 'the law says'

We need to replace your electricity meter
Hi Robert,

To ensure electricity meters are safe and accurate, the law says that they must be exchanged, free of charge, after a set period of time. That time has come for your electricity meter, and we would like to come and replace it.

An engineer will be in your area in the next few weeks, so we need to book a convenient time for your new meter to be installed. Someone will need to be at the property with the engineer for the length of the installation.
We’d like to replace both your electricity and your gas meter with smart meters
Smart meters mean that you’ll:
• Never need to submit another meter reading
• Receive accurate bills based on real-time usage
• Get the information you need to help cut your bills and reduce carbon emissions

We’re installing second generation smart meters (also known as ‘SMETS2’) which will stay smart even if you switch supplier in the future.

The smart meter installation will take around 90 minutes, and we’ll need to turn off both your gas and electricity for around 20 minutes each.

Let us know if you’d prefer a traditional meter
If you’d rather not have smart meters installed, please let us know by replying to this email. We’ll ensure that your electricity meter is exchanged with a traditional, non-smart meter.

See you soon,
Team Bulb

Think I'm tending towards going smart. I can't see hackers gaining consumer level access and if they did they would have hacked the system so could disrupt whole areas rather than bother with single users.

If it ever came that variable rate during the day tariffs were compulsory they would still have to be competitive so I don't see dumb meters giving a price advantage overall.

 

[RogerS]

..... I can't see hackers gaining consumer level access and if they did they would have hacked the system so could disrupt whole areas rather than bother with single users.

What would you rather be ? Dark and without power just like all the others in your locality who have smart meters ? Or the only house with lights, central heating, cooking, TV, computers etc? I know which one I would rather be.

You've also missed Bob's point re technical problems at their end and/or mixing you up with someone else and cutting off your power remotely. You'll have fun and games trying to convince them without any power.

Frankly I've had enough with wasting my time because of poorly developed IT systems, customer service agents that don't speak any recognisable form of English that I'm aware of (NB I love India and I love the people...just not in a call-centre context), customer service agents that follow a script without any opportunity to diverge into the realms of commonsense. But, hey, if you want the hassle...go for it!

If it ever came that variable rate during the day tariffs were compulsory they would still have to be competitive so I don't see dumb meters giving a price advantage overall.

True, dumb meters don't. But until such time as tariffs come in then why run the risk of a hack ? Or being switched off by mistake. I really can't see any benefit at all in putting a smart meter in until then and even then it would have to be compellingly financially beneficial.

 

[Woodster]

I agree Roger, I don’t see any advantages to having a smart meter. All I see is potential problems and increased cost.

The cost to install smart meters across the country is now estimated to be in excess of £13 billion. All of which will be passed on to consumers. It’s apparently £200 per meter so £400 per dual fuel household. I think that anyone that actually wants them should pay the cost up front rather than sharing the cost with those of us that don’t want them via our energy bills.

We haven’t touched on safety yet either.

https://theecologist.org/2017/apr/11/sm ... ealth-risk

http://emfsafetynetwork.org/smart-meter ... xplosions/

 

[RogerS]

....I think that anyone that actually wants them should pay the cost up front rather than sharing the cost with those of us that don’t want them via our energy bills. ....

:text-+1:

 

[Woodbloke]

the law says that they must be exchanged, free of charge, after a set period of time. That time has come for your electricity meter, and we would like to come and replace it.

Some years ago we had a rubbish MK1 meter and I gashed after a very short time so when we received the sales push from Bulb (...engineer in your area etc bla bla etc) we hadn't been using one for a number of years, so there was nothing to replace - Rob

 

[Rod]

We had a smart meter installed under the pretext that the meters were very old ( which was true ).

Waste of time and money in that once the novelty had warned off, we very rarely looked at it.

Recently changed suppliers who don’t use smart meters, so no longer an issue, though the “readers” are still attached.

Rod

 

[HappyHacker]

What really annoys me is that these "free" meters are costing each household over £300 according to one report I read. No doubt this will increase now they have longer to install them.

I have so far escaped their installation. Many years ago I installed what my daughters called my miser meter to track electricity usage and while I made some initial changes now they have been made it is no longer used.

What will happen to our creaking electricity system when we are all running electric cars and the existing nuclear stations are closed?

 

[Simon_M]

Do they really cost £300? The electricity companies are really pushing them (and don't accept "no" easily). It must offer them a cheaper route and put some of the army of meter readers out of business.

I had a Smart Meter of type II fitted in the last month. The meter readings are once a day (or if you consent then the readings can be sent back to HQ every half hour).

My electricity meter is in the garage and the supply is routed to the house (usually it's the reverse). The display has trouble with reaching the house e.g. it's not much use except in the garage.

FWIW, my bandsaw seems to use a lot less power (as measured by the meter) then the motor label suggests it should. Perhaps the power factor of the motor is fooling the smart meter into under-reading my consumption?

 

[9fingers]

FWIW, my bandsaw seems to use a lot less power (as measured by the meter) then the motor label suggests it should. Perhaps the power factor of the motor is fooling the smart meter into under-reading my consumption?

I already explained this to you via my PM?
A motor only draws the rated power when it is working at maximum output power
Bob

 

[Woodster]

This says £420 per household but it’s a couple of years old.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bil ... d-420.html

They don’t just send data once every day:

”Smart Meters typically send bursts of data, lasting a fraction of a second, at intervals of minutes or hours.”

http://www.emfs.info/sources/meters/smart/

 

[Coley]

I started getting texts from them roughly every 4 days saying I should get a smart meter.They started ringing after that and i got narky with them and told them i was happy with what I've already got. Told them to take me off their "ring up and hassle list" and touchwood have heard nothing since.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

 

[9fingers]

I started getting texts from them roughly every 4 days saying I should get a smart meter.They started ringing after that and i got narky with them and told them i was happy with what I've already got. Told them to take me off their "ring up and hassle list" and touchwood have heard nothing since.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

I had similar experience with Scottish Power although I never give a real mobile number to those sort of outfits.
After asking to speak to a supervisor, they asked what my objection was and I gave them the full list. Then they asked what would it take to change my mind. I said a guaranteed half price tariff for life or hell freezing over which ever came sooner. I did not hear from them again.
My current (ha!) supplier is GNE and they have not even mentioned the topic. It maybe as a non big six supplier they are not incentivised to push them

Bob

 

[Simon_M]

I already explained this to you via my PM?

Yes you did (and thanks again) and I know that the power of a motor is not simply "one" number but is a "graph" of numbers. So a motor with no load may typically draw much more current e.g. typically 4x at maximum load and 50% more than the maximum at the point of stalling (something that hasn't happened so far). In any case I don't intend to get a dynamometer just to prove that the listed figures (without IEC S1 - S8 ratings specified) are incorrect. The motor is sufficient for my needs is all I need to know.

The smart meter has the option of using batteries so that when it's not connected to mains power e.g. when moving it from room to room, to dynamically estimate the consumption of an appliance. Unfortunately the battery life is only quoted as 4-6 hours, but for me the problem is that where the reception from the sending unit is marginal (garage to house), the batteries inhibit (shield) the performance further so it's 100% unlikely to work for me in the house with them installed.

The smart meter has the means to use wifi although this is not being taken advantage of on my unit and I'm told that it use mobile phone transmission between the sender and the display however it's not much good. If it had encoded the information on the mains cable then that would have been a better solution at least when it's tethered.

Perhaps when we all switchover to electric cars there will be generation III meters that really are "smart" enough to communicate with appliances e.g. power companies can pass on generating statistics and intelligent car chargers can balance the need to charge right now with needing to be charged by a specific time e.g. by 8am tomorrow.

 

[Robert]

I've been reading a lot more web pages on this topic including a site dedicated to putting you off smart meters and explaining all the reasons - nearly all of which have been covered here.

And I've still not changed my opinion. I don't see most of the negatives ever happening. What is left as possible balances with the limited positives like not reading the meter. So I'll probably still be saying yes to smart meters... probably.