Spindle gouges

[Mike G]

I have a lot of spindles to make over the next little while, for 8 chairs. Yesterday I thought I would get some practice, and spent a few hours converting perfectly good pine into firewood and chicken bedding, using a skew. I'm reasonably confident with it coming towards me, but need more time making it work well going away from me. The quality of the finish is of course the prize for using the skew.

Right at the end of the session, I picked up a spindle gouge. It chewed the surface up beautifully. Why does anyone use a spindle gouge? What can it do that a skew can't?

 

[wallace]

Internal work. I like a skew for rolling over beads but for the other way I prefer a gouge.

 

[Lons]

A gouge shouldn't chew up the surface as long as you keep the bevel rubbing Mike and of course it's sharp. It sounds as if you're getting a scraping action. Possibly adjust the height of the tool rest, I'm constantly moving mine to suit and do much of my turning with a roughing gouge and get a decent finish. I've just turned a couple of plane knobs from walnut using a roughing gouge and only used the point of a skew to finess the edge of the parting chisel cut.
Practice and more firewood is the only real answer unfortunately unless there's an experienced turner locally who can show you.

Just to add to that Mike, it's far better to cut down into a hollow so get used to using the tool cack handed (so if right handed that's cutting left to right), or better still learn to use your other hand. I'm very right handed but soon got used to swapping hands including when using a skew.

 

[Deejay]

I have a lot of spindles to make over the next little while, for 8 chairs. Yesterday I thought I would get some practice, and spent a few hours converting perfectly good pine into firewood and chicken bedding, using a skew. I'm reasonably confident with it coming towards me, but need more time making it work well going away from me. The quality of the finish is of course the prize for using the skew.

Right at the end of the session, I picked up a spindle gouge. It chewed the surface up beautifully. Why does anyone use a spindle gouge? What can it do that a skew can't?

Morning Mike

Richard Raffan Spindle gouge techniqe at about 3:40 and 14:12

If you want a small radius at the bottom of a cove, I find a spinldle gouge a bit easier to control.

A skew will let you do narrower v-grooves

Cheers

Dave

 

[Raymedullary]

I think that as you turn more, you will see less difference between different tools in as much as they can all produce shearing cuts dependant on bevel length/shape and tool presentation. A spindle gouge with a long finger nail shape will produce as good a finish as a skew and some feel with less risk, apart from that its down to preference/feel/shape of work/nearest sharp tool. There are some who use some form of skew or straight chisel for almost everything including roughing.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

I think that as you turn more, you will see less difference between different tools in as much as they can all produce shearing cuts

Yes. As a sometime pole lathe turner, as well as gouges and the skew, we use a large flat chisel too. If you use the flat chisel as a skew with no skew angle (skew the whole tool) and think of a gouge as a skew with the corners curved up out of harms way, you will do alright.

 

[Duncan A]

Try doing this with a skew!

The first ten minutes

 

[AndyP]

Nothing to add re the technicalities but I ever since you posted the drawings of your design I have been wondering how you were going to make all those legs.

 

[Mike G]

Thanks guys. That's all very useful.

Funnily enough I can get pretty decent results with a big roughing gouge. Much better than with the spindle gouge (which is possibly too small to be very useful). More practise needed!

 

[Mike G]

Nothing to add re the technicalities but I ever since you posted the drawings of your design I have been wondering how you were going to make all those legs.

Slowly!

I put myself in the category of .........."got a clue, know how wood works, but not really a turner". I'll manage 40 spindles OK, even now, and I expect I'll just be starting to get the hang of it by the time I'm finished. But I'll be slow.

 

[Phil]

Slowly!

Create lots of pine fire wood before moving on to hardwood, then again also a scrap piece to start off with, slightly different feel.
I tried turning a handle for an Xmas pressie and came to the conclusion I first need to sharpen up!
Knowing you sharpening will not be a problem.

 

[Mike G]

Create lots of pine fire wood before moving on to hardwood........

I've turned 2 or 3 dozen pieces in oak over the years, starting on friend's lathes for the odd spindle here and there.

Sharpening isn't a problem, but knowing when the tool is blunt still is. If things aren't going well I'm not experienced enough to know straight away if it's my fault (ie technique), or if the tool has gone blunt.

 

[Phil]

Sharpening isn't a problem, but knowing when the tool is blunt still is. If things aren't going well I'm not experienced enough to know straight away if it's my fault (ie technique), or if the tool has gone blunt.

Fully agree.

 

[Lurker]

No one has mentioned this, so maybe it’s just me. I find pine wood difficult to spindle turn as you are trying to cut across the grain and it tears out.
My assumption is that it’s no coincidence that chair spindles are either beech or ash.

 

[Mike G]

No one has mentioned this, so maybe it’s just me. I find pine wood difficult to spindle turn as you are trying to cut across the grain and it tears out.
My assumption is that it’s no coincidence that chair spindles are either beech or ash.

My practice spindles are in pine, and they are coming up really smooth because I'm using a skew. It's like a planed surface. However, it's a pig for this unskilled oaf to get details such as beads and hollows right with a skew. I'm working backwards from doing deliberate "kicks", to find out what I'm doing wrong.

 

[CHJ]

Have you tried using a Bowl Gouge as opposed to spindle gouge, sometimes the extra rigidity and weight and grind angles are easier to control the 'bite' of starting the cut.

And remember, even using 'round' Gouges as opposed to a skew, present your cutting edge as a slicing cut not a straight chopping presentation of the edge.

Have you experimented with the Nose Angle of your gouges? you might find a particular angle suits your way of presenting the tool regardless of what the 'Book' says.
Tool Nose Angles

 

[Dr.Al]

 

[Mike G]

Have you tried using a Bowl Gouge as opposed to spindle gouge, sometimes the extra rigidity and weight and grind angles are easier to control the 'bite' of starting the cut.

And remember, even using 'round' Gouges as opposed to a skew, present your cutting edge as a slicing cut not a straight chopping presentation of the edge.

Have you experimented with the Nose Angle of your gouges? you might find a particular angle suits your way of presenting the tool regardless of what the 'Book' says.
Tool Nose Angles

Yes, Chas, I have used what I call a roughing gouge, which might well be a bowl gouge (I know nothing!), and find it far and away the easiest tool to use. I can get a pretty clean finish with it.

Here's my skew:





Ooops...out of focus. It doesn't have flat faces. It has convex surfaces top and bottom.....but as you're running it on an edge all the time, I can't see that making a difference.

 

[Mike G]

Here's a little spindle I've just done only using the skew. The bit on the RH end is waste:



It's OK, I guess. I've got the shape I want, and the finish is OK. With a bit of sanding it can go into use (it's for ringing a bell). The thing is, it probably took me half an hour!

 

[Deejay]

My practice spindles are in pine, and they are coming up really smooth because I'm using a skew. It's like a planed surface. However, it's a pig for this unskilled oaf to get details such as beads and hollows right with a skew. I'm working backwards from doing deliberate "kicks", to find out what I'm doing wrong.

Afternoon Mike

might help

Cheers

Dave

 

[Malc2098]

The thing is, it probably took me half an hour!

I takes me a year to make one of my instruments.

 

[CHJ]

Abrasive Paper is just a multi faceted cutting tool.

Here's a little spindle I've just done only using the skew. The bit on the RH end is waste:

It's OK, I guess. I've got the shape I want, and the finish is OK. With a bit of sanding it can go into use (it's for ringing a bell). The thing is, it probably took me half an hour!

Looks fine, Abrasive Paper is just a multi faceted cutting tool after all, who would know if you did not tell them.

 

[Mike G]

Afternoon Mike

might help

Cheers

Dave

Thanks Dave. Yes, I watched that last night (I think someone else recommended it earlier). Whilst very clear and well explained, he does make it look very easy.

 

[AndyP]

What would scare me most is not making one but copy turning, how many?

 

[Mike G]

What would scare me most is not making one but copy turning, how many?

Eight chairs, with 6 of them, the side chairs, being the same (plus 2 carvers). So I have to get 12 visible spindles in the back reasonably the same. The front legs will possibly be a bit more forgiving, as you'll never see chairs side-by-side from the front. The barley twist isn't really turning, and that I can be pretty confident with (which is a pity, as it will almost never be seen).

 

[Lons]

My practice spindles are in pine, and they are coming up really smooth because I'm using a skew. It's like a planed surface. However, it's a pig for this unskilled oaf to get details such as beads and hollows right with a skew. I'm working backwards from doing deliberate "kicks", to find out what I'm doing wrong.

Mike, the "kick" / catches are caused when an unsupported corner or cutting edge digs in. The easiest way to get your head around it is to leave the lathe off, present the tool to the wood on the bevel with edge nut touching then turn the wood towards you by hand while raising your tool hand, dropping the cutting edge into the wood and you'll see exactly how it cuts and when it catches. You won't get a catch as long as you do that or are careless and soon do it almost on autopilot.
You can get almost as good a finish from a gouge as a skew using a slicing cut. Certainly good enough for a light sanding finish.

 

[CHJ]

What would scare me most is not making one but copy turning, how many?

Not as difficult as you might perceive if you make up the equivalent of a Story Board for the major diameter change points and start by using a parting tool and callipers to turn up appropriate aiming points.

And in most projects the odd MM difference in diameter is of no visual consequence.

 

[Mike G]

Mike, the "kick" / catches are caused when an unsupported corner or cutting edge digs in.......

Yes, I've got that intellectually, but not assimilated it properly into my "skills". I've found that I get a lot of kicks when I miss something going in one direction, and just go back a tad to have another go. I'm gradually learning not to go back on myself momentarily, but instead to pick up any errors on the next full pass.

 

[Lons]

Yes, I've got that intellectually, but not assimilated it properly into my "skills". I've found that I get a lot of kicks when I miss something going in one direction, and just go back a tad to have another go. I'm gradually learning not to go back on myself momentarily, but instead to pick up any errors on the next full pass.

Didn't intend to insult your intelligence Mike, far from it. It's practice and more of it until it becomes second nature like you cutting dovetails. I bet by the time you get to your last spindle you'll be an expert. I wouldn't fancy doing 40 of them myself, I've thought several times about changing ours, similar quantity and soon dropped the idea.

Just a thought, you probably know already but you can just draw the tool back in the opposite direction as long as you keep the bevel rubbing. Saves the risk of a dig in when starting the cut again.

 

[Mike G]

Didn't intend to insult your intelligence Mike, far from it.

Oh, I didn't take it that way at all! No. Sorry if I gave that impression.

It's practice and more of it until it becomes second nature like you cutting dovetails.

Exactly. That's what I was trying to say. I'm at the stage equivalent to being able to turn out a reasonable-ish dovetail, but really slowly, and having to look at a finished one to work out what I'm doing. To keep the analogy going.......in my mind a catch is sort-of the equivalent to cutting the wrong side of a line when doing dovetails. When I can approach a spindle with a skew without even thinking about a catch, then I'll know I've done enough practise.

 

[Lurker]

I use skews of different widths for the majority of my turning. I had one of those oval jobbies but I couldn’t get on with it, I gave it to a friend.

 

[Lons]

I use skews of different widths for the majority of my turning. I had one of those oval jobbies but I couldn’t get on with it, I gave it to a friend.

We're all different. I have a 3/4" oval skew and love it.

 

[Deejay]

Afternoon Mike

If you want a video of what Lons said above ...

Richard Raffan has been a professional turner since, I think, 1973. That's why he makes it look easy.

Two things. Any chance of a photo of your spindle gouge grind?

Secondly, I found life much easier with a slight radius on the ground edge of my skews.

Cheers

Dave

 

[Mike G]

Two things. Any chance of a photo of your spindle gouge grind?

Secondly, I found life much easier with a slight radius on the ground edge of my skews.

Dave

Sure, no problem Dave. I'll grab a photo or two after lunch. I will also post my turnings, which are all part of a door-bell project. Yes, really.

 

[Mike G]

Here you are Dave. This is the sum total of my lathe weaponry:



So, that's a 6mm spindle gouge, an 18mm skew, a 25mm roughing gouge, and a parting tool.

The spindle gouge, which I've only used for a few minutes and never sharpened, looks as though it is ground to a more acute angle than the roughing gouge:



I get on really well with the latter, so I guess the lesson there is to steepen up the bevel of the small gouge.

Your point about having a curve on the skew........well, entirely unintentionally and just through ineptitude, that's what I've ended up with:



I had made a note to myself to straighten that edge up next time I ground, but if that's what you and others do by choice, I'll leave it as it is for the time being.

 

[Deejay]

Here you are Dave. This is the sum total of my lathe weaponry:

View attachment 31720

So, that's a 6mm spindle gouge, an 18mm skew, a 25mm roughing gouge, and a parting tool.

The spindle gouge, which I've only used for a few minutes and never sharpened, looks as though it is ground to a more acute angle than the roughing gouge:

View attachment 31721View attachment 31722View attachment 31725View attachment 31726

I get on really well with the latter, so I guess the lesson there is to steepen up the bevel of the small gouge.

Your point about having a curve on the skew........well, entirely unintentionally and just through ineptitude, that's what I've ended up with:

View attachment 31724

I had made a note to myself to straighten that edge up next time I ground, but if that's what you and others do by choice, I'll leave it as it is for the time being.

Morning Mike

If you look at the cutting edge of the spindle gouge, it should be a smooth continuous curve. Because the grind doen't go all the way round the gouge you have 'points' where the grind stops. That would probably explain the poor finish from the spindle gouge.

I prefer a fingernail grind, where the wings are ground back a little further. Choice of grind on gouges is a personal thing.

Putting the fingernail grind on pushes the point where the grind meets the flute to a place, and shape, where it's less likely to cause a catch.
If you look at

at about 28 seconds it shows as a brand new gouge straight out of the box. You can see that there are 'points' where the edge of the flute meets the angled grind. The rest of the clip is worth watching.

Your gouge looks to have these half way round the grind. If you grind it to a smooth curve all the way round, you'll probably get on better.

If freehand grinding doesn't work for you, Chas (CHJ) of this parish has very kindly posted a design here.

Basic Fingernail Gouge Grinding Jig

The skew looks OK and you seem happy with it, but mine benefit with a quick touch from something like this when they get a bit dull, rather than returning to the grinder.

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Cheers

Dave

 

[Mike G]

Excellent, Dave. Thank you very much for that. As I say, I've never ground that little gouge, but I'll absorb the lessons and adjust it this afternoon.

I've got precisely that little diamond file (honing thing) that you link to. I'll start using it for the intermediate touch-ups prior to a full re-grind. Do you de-burr the hollow? I only ask because turning oak removes the edge so fast (compared to my normal work) that I find the burr has gone after just a few seconds back on the lathe.

 

[Deejay]

Hello Mike

I don't deburr, but I know some do. I'll give it a try to see if it makes a difference. I don't try to get a chisel quality edge. My fine wheel is (I think) about 100 grit and the coarse is 36

I've got a few old carbon steel tools. They seem to take a sharper edge, but dont last as long as HSS. Seasoned Oak will always take a toll an the cutting edge. Bear in mind the length of the cut a tool makes with the wood spinning past it so fast.

Cheers

Dave

 

[Duncan A]

Yes, Chas, I have used what I call a roughing gouge, which might well be a bowl gouge (I know nothing!), and find it far and away the easiest tool to use. I can get a pretty clean finish with it.

Just in case you have not yet realised, the roughing gouge is properly known as a spindle roughing gouge and should never be used for turning bowls. The tang is not strong enough. Just in case you were thinking of giving it a try!
A bowl gouge is somewhat like a spindle gouge (made from round bar) but stronger and with a deeper flute.
Sorry if this is teaching you to suck eggs.
Duncan

 

[Mike G]

Just in case you have not yet realised, the roughing gouge is properly known as a spindle roughing gouge and should never be used for turning bowls. The tang is not strong enough. Just in case you were thinking of giving it a try!
A bowl gouge is somewhat like a spindle gouge (made from round bar) but stronger and with a deeper flute.
Sorry if this is teaching you to suck eggs.
Duncan

It isn't! Thanks for the input.

I've no plan to turn any bowls.