PAC1":1jkjp7vs said:
Yes, I do ! Do you have a link please ? I did take a look at Bendy Wood when I first started thinking about this back in 2019
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Staircase upgrade - ...
- Thread starter RogerS
- Start date
Yes, I do ! Do you have a link please ? I did take a look at Bendy Wood when I first started thinking about this back in 2019
Roger it is Haldanes https://www.haldaneuk.com/bespoke-timbe ... ils-stairs
PAC1":kjt3vout said:
Thanks for the link. I think
Had a quick look but as soon as I saw 'Our clients include royalty and multi-millionaires' and then some of their installation locations, I decided to give them a miss.Mucho spondoolicks, methinks.
PAC1":2808zxf3 said:
Oh absolutely and I'm grateful for the link. Passed over to Chief Designer. Trying to work out what the 4th and 5th axes are on their CNC machine.
Cncpaul
New Shoots
Maybe a bit of fun Roger
PAC1":3eprqpfv said:
If it's well polished and you've got good body control then you launch your upper body forwards right at the end and keep on running !
Cabinetman
Sequoia
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Not realising your post was the first one at the top of the last page I wondered what on earth were talking about Roger!! Then I went back to where I last left it ha ha, yes they really should’ve faired that out a little bit at the bottom shouldn’t they. Ian
Mike G":3u3w6nto said:
2.7m in that case, Mike
Moving on ...
Obviously the newels can't be completely removed and so finessing the end result and making good will be challenging. Bang on the money with the volute. Looking at something like this (but no newel).
I think the LH newel can almost be cut flush. But maybe not, Need to investigate more.
Some folk have suggested replacing the staircase completely with a curved one. I ran that past CD but it was vetoed as not cost-effective. You see, we've always got one eye on the future and whether any investment will add value to the house when we come to sell ..whenever that is. A curved staircase is a bit too sophisticated for the market up here, are our thoughts.
Obviously the newels can't be completely removed and so finessing the end result and making good will be challenging. Bang on the money with the volute. Looking at something like this (but no newel).
I think the LH newel can almost be cut flush. But maybe not, Need to investigate more.
Some folk have suggested replacing the staircase completely with a curved one. I ran that past CD but it was vetoed as not cost-effective. You see, we've always got one eye on the future and whether any investment will add value to the house when we come to sell ..whenever that is. A curved staircase is a bit too sophisticated for the market up here, are our thoughts.
To help discussion, I'm calling this one - Newel A
It is still in one piece. I can get access to the underfloor fixing to have a look and will take some photos. Not for a few days though. We do quite like the Victorian doofer hanging down at the bottom though.
Newel B
The doofer has been added on at a later date.
Again, should be able to see if the stringer goes all the way through and/or how it is fixed in a day or two.
Newel C
Newel D
Newel E
Obviously I can get underneath and take more photos at later date.
It is still in one piece. I can get access to the underfloor fixing to have a look and will take some photos. Not for a few days though. We do quite like the Victorian doofer hanging down at the bottom though.
Newel B
The doofer has been added on at a later date.
Again, should be able to see if the stringer goes all the way through and/or how it is fixed in a day or two.
Newel C
Newel D
Newel E
Obviously I can get underneath and take more photos at later date.
Newel B
Start of the more detailed investigation today. This newel post is fixed with some strange looking bolts/nails/screws here.
I propose to add some coach screws to 'belt'n'brace.
The stringer is simply housed in. As far as I can see or the metal-detector can find, there are no mechanical fixings. I'm proposing that the newel post be cut at the red line. I'll put some large screws through the newel post into the stringer.
If I look down to the rail line, it works for me and naturally flows on to Newel Post A which I'm expecting to be fixed the same as this one.
That's as far as I got today as the sun came out and I needed to do some logs.
Start of the more detailed investigation today. This newel post is fixed with some strange looking bolts/nails/screws here.
I propose to add some coach screws to 'belt'n'brace.
The stringer is simply housed in. As far as I can see or the metal-detector can find, there are no mechanical fixings. I'm proposing that the newel post be cut at the red line. I'll put some large screws through the newel post into the stringer.
If I look down to the rail line, it works for me and naturally flows on to Newel Post A which I'm expecting to be fixed the same as this one.
That's as far as I got today as the sun came out and I needed to do some logs.
SamQ aka Ah! Q!
Old Oak
Jesus, Murphy and Joseph, Roger, that twinned newel in C has got to take the entire biscuit tin for being the ugliest, least-planned, most ineffective, 'mamary glands on a bull' construction I have ever seen. Is there ANY possibility a second flight from.location B was grafted onto location A? Or, am I being spectacularly stupid? Again.
Sam
Edit: isn't that a plugged mortice on the lower, less ornate post? Wossatabaht?
Sam
Edit: isn't that a plugged mortice on the lower, less ornate post? Wossatabaht?
Trevanion
Old Oak
That's quite an odd mess of a staircase, as Sam said, the newels at the very least are definitely from another older staircase judging by the plugged mortices and out of place trenches and so on, unless they were just completely cocking it up the whole time. It's not uncommon to see sistered newel posts but that is just a bodge, plain and simple.
Maybe not curved if that's too upmarket, why not a decent-sized three-kite winder that actually fits properly? You'll be glad you did it, and no doubt a far nicer looking object than the current one.
Which is just about perfect for your standard 13 steps at around 8" in rise.
RogerS":39x404ny said:
Maybe not curved if that's too upmarket, why not a decent-sized three-kite winder that actually fits properly? You'll be glad you did it, and no doubt a far nicer looking object than the current one.
RogerS":39x404ny said:
Which is just about perfect for your standard 13 steps at around 8" in rise.
Newel C and D
or...Houston we have a problem. But first the good news. The quarter-turn platform is supported by this and so quite substantial. But now for the bad news ...
Newel C adds nothing to the support of the stringer. It simply slips over the top !
The stringer goes all the way through and is housed in newel D. And Newel C was the one I was planning on keeping
This arrangement pushes the end of the stringer outside the radius of where I want the turn to be for the handrail.
Newel D is not really attached to anything much. It relies on gravity as much as anything and simply sits on top of the bottom tread of the upper flight. There's daylight all the way around the verticals as far as I can see.
The vertical load on that tread is carried down to the support shown in the first photo.
Underneath is a bit of a dogs' dinner. That bullnose tread on the quarter-turn platform looks to have dropped a little. Not surprising given that it looks as it it's just fixed with those two nails.
The outer stringer on the bottom flight is only supported by some schenzy panelling.
There seems to be a single nail holding it laterally at the top
Apart from that, it's all looking good :shock:
I think that probably the best course of action is to remove the bannisters on the two flights and Newels C and D completely and start from scratch.
or...Houston we have a problem. But first the good news. The quarter-turn platform is supported by this and so quite substantial. But now for the bad news ...
Newel C adds nothing to the support of the stringer. It simply slips over the top !
The stringer goes all the way through and is housed in newel D. And Newel C was the one I was planning on keeping This arrangement pushes the end of the stringer outside the radius of where I want the turn to be for the handrail.
Newel D is not really attached to anything much. It relies on gravity as much as anything and simply sits on top of the bottom tread of the upper flight. There's daylight all the way around the verticals as far as I can see.
The vertical load on that tread is carried down to the support shown in the first photo.
Underneath is a bit of a dogs' dinner. That bullnose tread on the quarter-turn platform looks to have dropped a little. Not surprising given that it looks as it it's just fixed with those two nails.
The outer stringer on the bottom flight is only supported by some schenzy panelling.
There seems to be a single nail holding it laterally at the top
Apart from that, it's all looking good :shock:
I think that probably the best course of action is to remove the bannisters on the two flights and Newels C and D completely and start from scratch.
This is what has me scratching my head. Assume newels C and D have both gone. As you can see, the outer stringer on the bottom flight terminates halfway into the bottom tread of the top flight. I really, really, really do NOT want to rip out that bottom flight, shorten the width of the treads to bring the outer stringer into line with the end of the top flight stringer.
And until I remove Newel D I don't know where the outer stringer on the top flight ends
And until I remove Newel D I don't know where the outer stringer on the top flight ends
I really think you are going to struggle to achieve an outcome that you will be happy with without some major work, especially if you are going for the continuous handrail thing.
I have done a few continuous handrails but all using the volutes, turns and ramps you can buy off the shelf and most of those were the type that go over the top of a newel, they were tricky enough.
Aside from your newels not lining up (which I think you already realise will cause you all sorts of problems) the thing for me is I always picture continuous handrailing on a cut string staircase, on a closed string one like yours I picture big chunky newels with big chunky spindles.
I have done a few continuous handrails but all using the volutes, turns and ramps you can buy off the shelf and most of those were the type that go over the top of a newel, they were tricky enough.
Aside from your newels not lining up (which I think you already realise will cause you all sorts of problems) the thing for me is I always picture continuous handrailing on a cut string staircase, on a closed string one like yours I picture big chunky newels with big chunky spindles.
Doug71":2dk88xea said:
You're not the only one to say that. Chief Designer wants some plant on relief mouldings which I think will go a long way to addressing your concern.
Trevanion
Old Oak
Wait, wait, wait...
Has someone literally cut an old door or paneling in half to stick under your stairs?
Honestly, Roger, I know you probably don't want to hear it but I would knock refurbing that staircase on the head. With all of its problems and clearly shonky cowboy workmanship it simply just isn't suitable and any amount of work trying to rectify that is going to be a completely wasted effort.
Do it properly (IE, chuck that one on the fire and put a new one in) and you won't be disappointed with it, fix that bloody thing up and you'll be constantly wishing you'd replaced it, trust me.
Has someone literally cut an old door or paneling in half to stick under your stairs?
Honestly, Roger, I know you probably don't want to hear it but I would knock refurbing that staircase on the head. With all of its problems and clearly shonky cowboy workmanship it simply just isn't suitable and any amount of work trying to rectify that is going to be a completely wasted effort.
Do it properly (IE, chuck that one on the fire and put a new one in) and you won't be disappointed with it, fix that bloody thing up and you'll be constantly wishing you'd replaced it, trust me.
SamQ aka Ah! Q!
Old Oak
Roger, firstly, apologies for OTT mickeytake earlier; that didn't help you out of this predicament.
Referencing your other thread on this issue and the pictures in this one:
I don't see the wedges pinning riser and tread into housings in the stringer that I would have expected too. Are the risers and treads just jambuttied into housings? No way to tighten things up ( yes, I do see the glued triangulars).
(Re)moving newel D and narrowing the lower stair? Good idea, but are you are going to have to rebuild the "shonky" understair too, or 'move it across a bit'? How is it built into the floor? On top of the boards?
I am not quite clear from your photos - is newel C rock solid, secure? What happens to its anchorage if you narrow the lower flight, and in so doing, alter the lower flight's connection to C?
Sorry, it's late and its been a trying few days, I'm probably missing the obvious.
Sam
Referencing your other thread on this issue and the pictures in this one:
I don't see the wedges pinning riser and tread into housings in the stringer that I would have expected too. Are the risers and treads just jambuttied into housings? No way to tighten things up ( yes, I do see the glued triangulars).
(Re)moving newel D and narrowing the lower stair? Good idea, but are you are going to have to rebuild the "shonky" understair too, or 'move it across a bit'? How is it built into the floor? On top of the boards?
I am not quite clear from your photos - is newel C rock solid, secure? What happens to its anchorage if you narrow the lower flight, and in so doing, alter the lower flight's connection to C?
Sorry, it's late and its been a trying few days, I'm probably missing the obvious.
Sam
Yes, the wedges are there.SamQ aka Ah! Q!":3ldbjycw said:
SamQ aka Ah! Q!":3ldbjycw said:
Shouldn't be a problem if I need to, Sam, if I understand you correctly.
SamQ aka Ah! Q!":3ldbjycw said:
No, it's not fixed to the stringer. It's been cut to slot down over it !
SamQ aka Ah! Q!":3ldbjycw said:
Nay bother, mate
Mike G
Petrified Pine
Morning Roger. What a mess you're dealing with here. Let me add to it.
It looks to me from the right hand photo of the split photo that the first step up from the half landing has a lower rise than the last step up to the landing. If that's the case, then the stair isn't in compliance with B Regs, and that should be another nail in its coffin. As I said yesterday, I don't think you'll get the solution you want by altering this stair, and 'twere it me I am pretty sure I'd just start from scratch.
If you do decide to start again, I'll provide you with a set of proper drawings. I owe you one.....
It looks to me from the right hand photo of the split photo that the first step up from the half landing has a lower rise than the last step up to the landing. If that's the case, then the stair isn't in compliance with B Regs, and that should be another nail in its coffin. As I said yesterday, I don't think you'll get the solution you want by altering this stair, and 'twere it me I am pretty sure I'd just start from scratch.
If you do decide to start again, I'll provide you with a set of proper drawings. I owe you one.....
Steve Maskery
Old Oak
Mike G":x758ypbo said:
Roger, I think you have something there that is, in technical language, called a "No Brainer".
Mike G":xrvupmg5 said:
That's very kind of you, Mike. Just checked the risers and it's an optical illusion as they are all the same height.
Chaps, the time to have put in a new staircase was a couple of years ago before they replastered the hall and it was redecorated. Replacing the staircase is not an option. Niet. Nein. Nix. Nada. Non.
We shall soldier on. It will all come good. I just know it will. Honest. Really, really.
We shall soldier on. It will all come good. I just know it will. Honest. Really, really.
Trevanion
Old Oak
RogerS":3s0x8y1j said:
We only put in staircases after the room is finished if that helps, never before plastering or the first couple of costs of paint.
Trevanion":3ojaz0n0 said:
LOL....that's akin to the Irishman being asked for directions who replied "Well, I wouldn't start from here". :lol:
Trevanion
Old Oak
RogerS":1tqcp453 said:
I’m not quite sure what you mean by that? :eusa-think:
Trevanion":nxorhvbg said:
Well, the staircase was already there when we started the refurb work. Then it was replastered etc. In hindsight....
Question...how does one fix a continuous rail to the tops of the spindles ? Google's not helping me here.
Spent the day on the newels. I belt'n'braced newel B by adding some coach bolts through to the bearer. Interestingly, looking down on the top step and at the gap between the newel and the bearer, it looks as if that stringer had moved away. But the newel post is perfectly vertical. Who knows? The builder back in the day never owned a spirit level from what I can see and so it IS possible that the newel was installed out of vertical and leaning away from the stairs but the movement of the stringer pulled it upright !
The interesting work was on newels C and D. As I'd worked out, newel C did simply slip over the stringer !
Newel D
I jacked up the stringer and also jacked up the inside bearer supporting the nose of the quarter-turn platform. That actually brought that nose back into horizontal. Feeling confident that the newel was not contributing any more to the integrity of the staircase, I attacked it. As I thought, the bottom of the stringer had a tongue and that was housed in newel D.
That's as far as I got. Most of the time was spent thinking about what was holding and supporting what.
So what next ? Time for the thinking cap. I'm thinking about a 'newel' to go down to the floor and be crved at the tiop to follow the line of the handrail.
Don't worry about the black on the end grain of the newel post...it's not cracks but paint off the Fein blade.
I think that I can reduce the LH projection of the newel. Then make good the lower tread etc.
The interesting work was on newels C and D. As I'd worked out, newel C did simply slip over the stringer !
Newel D
I jacked up the stringer and also jacked up the inside bearer supporting the nose of the quarter-turn platform. That actually brought that nose back into horizontal. Feeling confident that the newel was not contributing any more to the integrity of the staircase, I attacked it. As I thought, the bottom of the stringer had a tongue and that was housed in newel D.
That's as far as I got. Most of the time was spent thinking about what was holding and supporting what.
So what next ? Time for the thinking cap. I'm thinking about a 'newel' to go down to the floor and be crved at the tiop to follow the line of the handrail.
Don't worry about the black on the end grain of the newel post...it's not cracks but paint off the Fein blade.
I think that I can reduce the LH projection of the newel. Then make good the lower tread etc.
Alasdair
Sapling
I'm with all the other dissenting voices here, replacement is a far easier and neater option. Stairs are not as had as some think and with a decent drawing (Mike G) you are half way there.
Cabinetman
Sequoia
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I hadn’t seen that before Mike, what a piece of work! Roger I suggest you show it to your wife she might like it! Then your troubles will really start ha ha
I was of the rip it out and start again brigade, but it seems to be going ok Roger, I like the idea of that Newell post going right down to the floor, it seems from what you’ve said that it had started to sag a bit as it was. Ian
I was of the rip it out and start again brigade, but it seems to be going ok Roger, I like the idea of that Newell post going right down to the floor, it seems from what you’ve said that it had started to sag a bit as it was. Ian
Admittedly he used stone rather than wood but Da Vinci’s double helix in Chambord would provide more of a challenge 