Terminology - Two countries, separated by a common language

[Lons]

Well I'm definitely an ignoramous with my standard state grammar school education via the 11+. Both my kids went through our local state system and did very well and my granddaughter is absolutely flying.

There's definitely a dumbing down in certain areas and I saw that first hand as a part time lecturer when the overiding factor was to meet targets and get bums on seats but it's completely wrong IMHO to just state "Educational standards have declined in most state schools.................".
I'd highlight the word most which is rather an unsubstatiated sweeping statement.

 

[spb]

I had to look it up. From the definition it sounds very similar to what I'd call a metonym, but there are presumably some subtle differences.

I'd say synecdoche is a subset of metonymy, so you wouldn't be wrong. A metonym is using one thing to refer to a closely related but different thing; if the relationship between them is that one thing is a part of the other then it's synecdoche.

Incidentally, the only time I was actually taught about either of those concepts was in Latin lessons, not English.

 

[Dr.Al]

I'd say synecdoche is a subset of metonymy, so you wouldn't be wrong. A metonym is using one thing to refer to a closely related but different thing; if the relationship between them is that one thing is a part of the other then it's synecdoche.

I think the distinction might be getting a bit too subtle for my head to handle! The examples (of a metonym) I remember being told were the use of "Washington", "Downing Street", "Whitehall" to mean "the US government" or "the Prime Minister's office" or "the civil service". Similarly "The City" to mean the banks and other financial institutions in London. I guess that all meets your "closely related but different" definition so it's probably reasonable.

Thankfully there aren't many situations in one's life where this sort of stuff particularly matters!

 

[spb]

I think the distinction might be getting a bit too subtle for my head to handle! The examples (of a metonym) I remember being told were the use of "Washington", "Downing Street", "Whitehall" to mean "the US government" or "the Prime Minister's office" or "the civil service". Similarly "The City" to mean the banks and other financial institutions in London. I guess that all meets your "closely related but different" definition so it's probably reasonable.

Yep, those are all definitely metonyms, in the form of a place being used to refer to an organisation based in that place. Another option would be "the Crown" to refer to either the monarch who wears it, or the government who represents it.

Synecdoche would be "mouths to feed" (you're hopefully feeding the whole person, not just their mouth) or "he's got wheels" to mean he owns a car. Or, from the place I first learnt about it, using the word for "planks" or "sail" to refer to a ship. That last one is very much a classical poetry thing with less relevance to modern English, though.

It can go the other way around, too. "The police are at the door", for example: it's probably only two officers, not the entire local police force, but in that case you can use the whole to refer to what's actually just a small part of it.

 

[SamQ aka Ah! Q!]

Over the years Sam I have recruited scores of graduates (mainly for PWC, but also for banks). These days I frequently interview sixth form students. I look at it as an employer, not a teacher, and my view stands. Our perspectives differ.

Your assertion stands. It is just that, an assertion. Employing for a workforce with a narrowly defined job description does, by definition, lead to a blinkered approach. You can see only the necessities(?) defined by the profession.
As to your anecdote re one single Maths Grad with stupendously woeful Maths skills, that does not an entire cohort of pupils (or students) make. We have all encountered 'sports' like this and a bit of digging usually reveals the real answer.

When I was a child learning piano, Mozart's Rondo A La Turka was grade 5 and regarded as straight forward. There was a significant gulf between grade 5 and 8 back then (after 8 the real work starts). The same piece is now on the Grade 8 syllabus. ABRSM have done away with the Performance Diploma as too difficult for most students.

Again, a highly subject-specific, narrow focus comment. I have no idea if it is true, I don't teach Music. Two of my three children hold ABRSM Grade Eight awards for their chosen instrument; the elder has toured with a Youth Orchestra. Both said the grades got harder, but equally, both said one needed a 'yen' for music and that helped. Your cherry picked assertion - in the absence of factual analysis - remains again, an assertion.

I agree to differ Adrian, and reserve the right thereby to intervene when your opinion is presented as fact.

 

[Dr.Al]

Might I suggest we draw this to a close? It feels like we've gone a long way off topic & the current debate might benefit from nipping in the bud as it were.

 

[Accipiter]

Please

 

[SamQ aka Ah! Q!]

I have no objection. The matter has been aired. Done.

 

[AJB Temple]

No sensitivity on my part here. Perfectly happy for different opinions to co-exist.