Timber Buildings

[Mike Jordan]

Another all timber monster. In Manchester this time, still not a structure II would care to work in.

 

[AJB Temple]

artist's / architects impression presumably rather than an actual structure at this point?

 

[Mike G]

Looks like sky hooks are a critical element of the structure.

 

[Mike Jordan]

I can’t see what’s supporting those huge spans. Obviously an artists impression so it could be artistic licence?

 

[Pete Maddex]

The other university in Nottingham built two carbon neutral wooden buildings the second one on the site of the first one after it burnt down.


Pete

 

[Phil]

Looks like sky hooks are a critical element of the structure.

Number 3? 5? or 7?

 

[Mike G]

Looks like sky hooks are a critical element of the structure.

Number 3? 5? or 7?

That's a structural engineering question. I'm a mere architect.... :lol:

 

[AndyP]

Seems it has planning permission.

https://www.constructionenquirer.com/20 ... -approved/

 

[Mike Jordan]

I really would like to know if buildings of this kind have any real advantages over conventional construction.
Leaving aside the claims of saving the planet, “locking up”carbon etc, most of which I feel are illusions. Are they quicker or cheaper to build?

 

[Doug]

Installing pre made elements to erect the building as opposed to building from the ground up on site as with traditional construction has got to be a big time saver especially when you take the British weather into account, it’s like making something on site as opposed to making it in the workshop

 

[AJB Temple]

When you see the modular houses built in factories, on programmes like Grand Designs, it does seem very quick and efficient. Made to high tolerances, high insulation values and all plumbing, electrics, ventilation and glazing very precise. It's quite impressive and makes sense to me. The building method that sarah Beeny and her husband used on their recent build programme, also looked very promising. Interlocking huigh insulation blocks.

I'm a bit unconvinced by the whole carbon thing too. Especially when foundations are made with huge amounts of steel reinforced concrete in the so called eco building. If we want to sequester carbon efficiently we need to focus on soil health and planting forests.

The other aspect almost invariably overlooked with office developments is that they are inherently inefficient uses of space. They are typically only occupied between about 8am and 6pm, which gives 14 hours of near vacancy for a huge space. Humans need to examine the way we live and the manner in which we use space if we really want to be serious about economy of resource utilisation.

 

[Mike Jordan]

I would agree that prefabrication reduces the amount of site work and must speed up construction, the claims that the building is carbon neutral seem to ignore the need to protect the timber elements with layers of gypsum plaster. I can’t see how that can be carbon neutral material.
The fact that the building will be a work space and therefor has a wide awake occupancy is good news as I see it. The idea of using this type of building as family accommodation with the attendant sleeping risk is not acceptable to my mind.

 

[Stuart]

The idea of using this type of building as family accommodation with the attendant sleeping risk is not acceptable to my mind.

Why would the sleeping risk be unacceptable? If the correct precautions are put in place then it's no different to a Premier Inn surely?

 

[Phil]

What do they use to construct houses in USA and Canada?

Watching this last lot of The Block, those houses are also timber (Oz)

 

[Mike Jordan]

I would have no concerns about individual houses built in this way but every concern about tower blocks built in timber.

 

[AJB Temple]

The point I was making is that building a £35 million structure to stand mostly nearly empty seems inefficient. There is nothing inherently demanding about office space: people sit there and do administration on computers and mobile devices. Until AI replaces those jobs. What would be genuinely creative is to find a way to use the space at least to some capacity throughout the 24 hour period.

Our culture is to build a box, and live in it, heating it up. Then leave it for hours on end as we travel to work using fuel to get to another space which is heated up for is to occupy for 8ish hours. Then it cools down again as it is emptied, and we repeat this cycle. At weekends the expensive office frequently stands completely empty. So over 7 days / 168 hours, the unit is used for about 40ish hours. Circa 25%.

Planners and architects need to think this through and then insist that building land is used far more efficiently than this. It needs plenty of kitchens, showers, dormitory spaces, leisure spaces, and fitting out that makes it flexible. It's not as if land grows on trees.

 

[AJB Temple]

If we look at earthquake resilient buildings, timber can be made to be more resistant to collapse than concrete structures. Nobody really wants to live in tower blocks anyway.

 

[Mike G]

......Planners and architects need to think this through and then insist that building land is used far more efficiently than this.......

Planners and architects aren't the people who make those sorts of decisions. Planning policy is determined by local councils (within a national framework), and what buildings get built within those policy guidelines is entirely down to developers. If the private sector doesn't like an architect saying "you're proposing the wrong sort of building here because of the inefficient use of resources", they'll simply get someone else to design it.

 

[AJB Temple]

Fair enough. But someone needs to take a lead. Architects are creative people and could start to change the course of the river here with some multi use ideas. Get the dialogue going perhaps. The waste of volume in office buildings is hard to deny.

 

[Lons]

My son is a manager for The Home Group who have had a new 5 storey office block built in the centre of Newcastle, they are a forward thinking and very employee caring company. Their previous offices on the outskirts had good parking facilities, this does not but they encourage employees and visitors to travel via public transport. The building is laid out to promote casual and creative environments as well as interaction with local people and incorporates a cafe at ground level that anyone can use and at reasonable cost as they are non profit making. A large part of the building is / will be let to other companies especially starter companies and there is a lot of facility sharing. The Home Group offices are scheduled to be shared with the majority of employees working from home most of the time with office time one designated day a week, my sons' being a Tuesday for example so in theory at least the required space is far less.

An interesting building especially inside, here's a link or google "Home group new offices" if of interest.
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/no ... l-26081394

A bonus for my son is that it's next to St James Park but only NUFC supporters like us would appreciate that. :lol:

 

[RogerS]

...
A bonus for my son is that it's next to St James Park but only NUFC supporters like us would appreciate that. :lol:

Spotted the typo, Lons. Easy mistake as M is next to N on the keyboard :lol:

 

[Lons]

...
A bonus for my son is that it's next to St James Park but only NUFC supporters like us would appreciate that. :lol:

Spotted the typo, Lons. Easy mistake as M is next to N on the keyboard :lol:

:shock: :lol:

 

[Phil]

Our Estate auditor rents office space in a 'share' building.
When I visit then there are a number of small meeting rooms that can be used, and also a reception coffee/snack area.
There are shared printers, WiFi etc.
You can do long term or short term lease.

 

[Blackswanwood]

My son is a manager for The Home Group who have had a new 5 storey office block built in the centre of Newcastle, they are a forward thinking and very employee caring company. Their previous offices on the outskirts had good parking facilities, this does not but they encourage employees and visitors to travel via public transport. The building is laid out to promote casual and creative environments as well as interaction with local people and incorporates a cafe at ground level that anyone can use and at reasonable cost as they are non profit making. A large part of the building is / will be let to other companies especially starter companies and there is a lot of facility sharing. The Home Group offices are scheduled to be shared with the majority of employees working from home most of the time with office time one designated day a week, my sons' being a Tuesday for example so in theory at least the required space is far less.

An interesting building especially inside, here's a link or google "Home group new offices" if of interest.
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/no ... l-26081394

A bonus for my son is that it's next to St James Park but only NUFC supporters like us would appreciate that. :lol:

This is a great example of how office space will (in my opinion) be designed and built in the future. I’m involved in moving the property estate of my employer into what we need for the next decade and are thinking very much along the same lines.

 

[RogerS]

But surely all these office spaces will be empty (as now) at night times and TBH the idea of using the space 24/7 by other companies/community is nonsensical. To start with, storage for stuff springs to mind .

 

[Cabinetman]

Just a ridiculous daydream idea, but imagine a building with floors that moved up and down, the floor of the office space at 5 pm moves upwards towards the ceiling and stops 4feet away, opening up the apartment below which was vacated and squashed at 8am that morning, not so good if the occupant is sick etc.
Told you it was ridiculous!

 

[RogerS]

Just a ridiculous daydream idea, but imagine a building with floors that moved up and down, the floor of the office space at 5 pm moves upwards towards the ceiling and stops 4feet away, opening up the apartment below which was vacated and squashed at 8am that morning, not so good if the occupant is sick etc.
Told you it was ridiculous!

Not so ridiculous. When we were driving around Japan, at one hotel followed the signs to parking. Once in the basement there were several doors and we were guided towards one of them that slid open and we were instructed to drive in. All in Japanese with which I am fluent - not. Thought we were going down to another level as in a lift but were told to get out. Sixth sense told us to get our bags out of the boot. The car then disappeared from view as it went round one of the many carousels going down and down into the depths of the earth.

 

[Blackswanwood]

But surely all these office spaces will be empty (as now) at night times and TBH the idea of using the space 24/7 by other companies/community is nonsensical. To start with, storage for stuff springs to mind .

I think the requirements of office space are fundamentally different to what they were a few years ago for us as everyone now has a laptop and softphone - we just need a suitable working space for the time they spend in the office alongside working from home. There’s much less stuff to store!

A few of the banks now make their spare space in large branches available to small businesses which a few years ago would have been unthinkable.

Cheers

Robert

 

[Woodster]

Just a ridiculous daydream idea, but imagine a building with floors that moved up and down, the floor of the office space at 5 pm moves upwards towards the ceiling and stops 4feet away, opening up the apartment below which was vacated and squashed at 8am that morning, not so good if the occupant is sick etc.
Told you it was ridiculous!

Sounds a bit like floor 7 1/2 in Being John Malkovich. :lol:

 

[RogerS]

But surely all these office spaces will be empty (as now) at night times and TBH the idea of using the space 24/7 by other companies/community is nonsensical. To start with, storage for stuff springs to mind .

I think the requirements of office space are fundamentally different to what they were a few years ago for us as everyone now has a laptop and softphone - we just need a suitable working space for the time they spend in the office alongside working from home. There’s much less stuff to store!

A few of the banks now make their spare space in large branches available to small businesses which a few years ago would have been unthinkable.

Cheers

Robert

Making spare space available, I can understand. But I thought the assertion was that these buildings should be in use 24/7 rather than just office hours ? That makes many assumptions which, IMO, are hard to fulfil. For example, if the building was going to be used by another business or businesses then those businesses need people willing to work 8pm to 4am perhaps.

Then you have larger office equipment like copiers and printers. Those will be tied into a network and so security issues and the management of that network need considering.

 

[Blackswanwood]

Making spare space available, I can understand. But I thought the assertion was that these buildings should be in use 24/7 rather than just office hours ? That makes many assumptions which, IMO, are hard to fulfil. For example, if the building was going to be used by another business or businesses then those businesses need people willing to work 8pm to 4am perhaps.

Then you have larger office equipment like copiers and printers. Those will be tied into a network and so security issues and the management of that network need considering.

Fair point regarding 24/7 Roger. Other than for a relatively small number of instances the demand isn’t there. I’m also not advocating that all space can be fungible but I do think (quite a lot more) than we have traditionally thought can.

Cheers

Robert

 

[Mike Jordan]

A final observation on this must be a look at all the internal and external photos of Waugh Thistletons Black and White building in Shoreditch looks to me like the latest folly using timber.
Well worth a Google.
Cladding the outside with timber leaves me breathless.

 

[Mike G]

It's a way of pretending that it isn't just another glass and steel box.

 

[Mike Jordan]

It seems that the sudden growth in this type of construction has raised the odd question.

https://www.dezeen.com/2023/03/22/fire- ... buildings/

 

[AJB Temple]

I read that article. It is largely very positive, despite a couple of scare pictures. Interesting.

 

[Mike Jordan]

I don’t believe that developers are really interested in saving the planet but do like to turn increased profits.
It ranks alongside other well thought out ideas like fencing in football crowds.to prevent pitch invasions. (Total cost 93 lives)
Why not insulate our tower blocks with unsuitable materials on the outside faces ( 73 lives lost)
Using this construction for places of work is one level of risk, using it for residential purposes seems to me to be to be intrinsically unsafe. I very much hope that I am wrong but I wish that the method wasn’t moving forward at speed as it seems to be.

 

[Mike G]

As with all simplistic assessments of a group of people, saying "X are like this" is always going to be wrong in a certain number of cases. Some developers really do have the future of the planet as their primary goal. Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth have built large buildings in various cities, so they are developers. But they far from the only developers whose drive is to produce better buildings with less impact on the planet.

As to the equating of timber framed buildings with retro-fitting buildings with a non-fire-resistant cladding........that's very misleading. For a start, the people who did the cladding used products which were certified as safe for the job by the BBA system. It's not their fault that the testing system was corrupted.

What sort of building would you rather be in when it catches fire: a timber building, or a steel building? Many if not most of the big office buildings in our cities are steel framed. The answer is, you should prefer to be in a timber building. Steel performs less well in building fires than timber. Steel requires more fire protection than timber does. I can (and regularly do) specify timber structural elements in a house which require no fire protection, but you can't put any structural steel into a building without wrapping it in fire resistant material. Timber chars in a fire, and this charring protects the core of the timber. Structural engineers size timbers by making allowance for the known rate of charring.

I'll say that again: Steel performs less well in building fires than timber. Steel requires more fire protection than timber does. I've been to the aftermath of a number of fires, in all sorts of buildings. It was notable that in the timber framed buildings, the frames were still standing. In the steel buildings, the frames had collapsed.

Timber construction is NOT intrinsically unsafe. I would happily sleep in a multi-storey timber framed building. To claim otherwise might seem logical, but it is wrong.

 

[Alf]

Timber chars in a fire, and this charring protects the core of the timber.

Mike, I believe I read somewhere or other that this is even better where there are no metal fixings at the joints i.e all wood joinery. Does that sound right?

 

[Mike G]

I believe so, Alf, but I've nothing I can refer to to back this up. Certainly if there are steel connections such as brackets or plates, these will fail before the timber does.

 

[MattS]

I read something the other day but cannot now remember the source to check the accuracy! It seems plausible though. Apparently the average time to escape a house fire is 3 minutes whereas going back (I think it was) 30 years it was 17 minutes and the difference is the synthetic materials that permeate everything we buy.