Tims workshop

[TrimTheKing]

Mike have you tried a different browser?.......

Too much faffing about with autofill passwords to bother changing browsers. I only swapped to Chrome because Opera and Firefox were both stuffing up my yahoo mail.

You can have more than one browser and just use the other for the forum...

Your choice but I'm almost certain that the issue is Google are enforcing their security level on the world unnecessarily and Tapatalk are not, so no other browser, no Tapatalk hosted pics.

Cheers
Mark


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Mike G]

I dumped Yahoo 6 months ago. I should have dumped it 3 years ago. Life is much less stressful now (I used to have to ring people to check they'd received my emails!!).

 

[9fingers]

I dumped Yahoo 6 months ago. I should have dumped it 3 years ago. Life is much less stressful now (I used to have to ring people to check they'd received my emails!!).

Glad to hear that Mike. I help run a few groups using the yahoo groups software and it is pretty awful. If it were down to me I'd dump yahoo and find something else to host the groups but that is not in my gift.


@Tim, I had no idea that AOL were still going. Their service has been pants for a very long time.

Cheers
Bob

 

[timothyedoran]

I dumped Yahoo 6 months ago. I should have dumped it 3 years ago. Life is much less stressful now (I used to have to ring people to check they'd received my emails!!).

Glad to hear that Mike. I help run a few groups using the yahoo groups software and it is pretty awful. If it were down to me I'd dump yahoo and find something else to host the groups but that is not in my gift.


@Tim, I had no idea that AOL were still going. Their service has been pants for a very long time.

Cheers
Bob

I wasn't sure either, bit it looks like it has mostly shut down. But it has reminded me of the modem noise, when connecting to the information super highway

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[timothyedoran]

I have been busy but not getting much further with the workshed. I had to rebuild a wall before I was allowed to start another project. It started to fall down so I pushed it over before it fell on someone. It took a lot of work to rebuild it, but I am reasonably happy with the results.



Then my father made a good suggestion about putting the workshed somewhere else. We didnt realise how nice the wall was, until we moved the old shed away from the wall. So this meant that I have had to move the old shed back almost where it was before. I hope I dont change my mind again.

Anyway, I have also been thinking about the base, and the amount of work required to make a concrete base. I dont really like concrete due to the environmental impact. So I am now thinking of a suspended floor instead, and loose a bit of headroom. I intend to have a concrete ring with bricks above ground level

I have been having a look at Malcolm's build and have seen his sketch as below:

Would the following work, for me? The only difference is that Malcolms design has two blocks upright and I propose one laying down. This would match closely with how much I need to dig down harder ground under the topsoil, aprox 0.35m


website for uploading photos

 

[9fingers]

I feel that you ought to make sure the cladding overlaps the outer brickwork to give a drip rail for the rain.

Bob

 

[Mike G]

In principle, yes, but note the following:

-the block shelf should support a girding beam, with the joists hanging off that. The joists themselves don't rest on the masonry shelf.

-your dimensions don't allow for a mortar course (10mm)

-you don't need the Type 1 below the concrete, but as the concrete is your entire foundation, 150 is too thin for my liking, even if you reinforce it. What sort of ground are you in, and are there any trees near by?

-vents will need to be designed in to permit airflow below the joists. Sketch in where you think they will be going.

-the 150 floor joist depth will very much depend upon the span of your proposed building. Can you remind me what that is?

 

[Mike G]

I feel that you ought to make sure the cladding overlaps the outer brickwork to give a drip rail for the rain.

Don't worry Bob. This is the same detail as per my workshop. With the counterbattens and wedges at the bottom, the boards just overhang the brick plinth. Indeed, the whole point of the 50mm blockwork inner skin is to avoid the nasty overhang that you see on ill-thought-through buildings, plus of course it adds a bit of insulation to a solid wall.

 

[timothyedoran]

I feel that you ought to make sure the cladding overlaps the outer brickwork to give a drip rail for the rain.

Bob

Yes you are correct. I forgot to draw in the triangular batten thing to kick the cladding out.

 

[timothyedoran]

In principle, yes, but note the following:

-the block shelf should support a girding beam, with the joists hanging off that. The joists themselves don't rest on the masonry shelf.

I thought that I had shown that. The griding beam is shown in profile, as coloured green. Is that correct?

-your dimensions don't allow for a mortar course (10mm)

Bother, this drawing marlarkey is hard. I think that the dimensions still work with the additional mortar courses. Do you agree?

-you don't need the Type 1 below the concrete, but as the concrete is your entire foundation, 150 is too thin for my liking, even if you reinforce it. What sort of ground are you in, and are there any trees near by?

Does that mean that I just need more concrete, in place of mot1?
No trees near by. There is about .35m top soil, then harder stoney stuff below. I dont know quite how to describe it, what should I be looking for. It looks like this:

-vents will need to be designed in to permit airflow below the joists. Sketch in where you think they will be going.

There will be air bricks in the middle course of bricks, in the same way that you showed in another design.


Any help in designing something sensible would be appreciated. Thanks everyone for your continued help, this is a steep learning curve

 

[timothyedoran]

What I am trying to achieve is something like this, but with the kicked out cladding like in Mikes workshop.

 

[Mike G]

That ground looks OK. It isn't clay, and so isn't going to heave and shrink. I would still like to see 250mm of concrete depth. I'd want more if was clay. 150mm is OK if it is way down at the bottom of a metre deep trench in the best possible ground, but not up where yours will be, within the frost zone, and where someone, sometime in the future, might plant a tree nearby. So your proposed depth of excavation is OK, but you should replace the Type 1 with concrete. Sorry.

 

[timothyedoran]

Ok that's good to know. Thanks for the advice. It's a shame i need 250mm as that works out at about 1.4m3 concrete. Is that too much to mix in a day with a mixer?

Risk of tree planting is moderate to high with my partner's love of gardening

 

[9fingers]

Thats getting on for 3 tonnes. you will know it by the evening. :lol:
I'd checkout mixamate for a mix as you go wagon. They will sort you out with about a 1 hour drop. only mixing (and paying for) what you need.

Bob

 

[timothyedoran]

Thats getting on for 3 tonnes. you will know it by the evening. :lol:
I'd checkout mixamate for a mix as you go wagon. They will sort you out with about a 1 hour drop. only mixing (and paying for) what you need.

Bob

Minimix don't deliver to bath and i cannot find another volumetric service.

 

[Malc2098]

Mine was exactly 1.6 cm calculated by the drawing then adjusted by measuring after the digger bucket had finished.

I ended up with a readimix lorry because the volumetric machine had a gearbox fault. They sent 1.6 on the lorry and it topped the pegs exactly. I was chuffed with that, it didn't take too long, but it's pricey.

 

[Mike G]

Ok that's good to know. Thanks for the advice. It's a shame i need 250mm as that works out at about 1.4m3 concrete. Is that too much to mix in a day with a mixer?.......

No, but as Bob says, it's not trivial. So long as the mixer is near your ballast, and your ballast is near the foundation, you should manage it OK. If you're new to mixing, I suggest that you work out how much ballast goes with half a bag of cement, rather than trying to shovel cement out of a bag. Cut the bags in half with an old handsaw (you'll soon work out the knack). If you can, have a water butt rather than a hose, too. An old wheelie bin is perfect. Have absolutely everything else done and in place before you start mixing.......levels marked, tamper made, boards down to tip the frame of the barrow against (you'll push in the edges of the trenches otherwise), rake to hand, and so on. Make sure you've got access all round.

Just to give you hope, I once mixed 6 cubic metres in a day with a friend..........so about twice each what you will be doing.

 

[9fingers]

Thats getting on for 3 tonnes. you will know it by the evening. :lol:
I'd checkout mixamate for a mix as you go wagon. They will sort you out with about a 1 hour drop. only mixing (and paying for) what you need.

Bob

Minimix don't deliver to bath and i cannot find another volumetric service.

For the Mixamate depot in the 'BA12 6' area please call:
0800 145 5297
http://www.mixamate.co.uk/contact?postcode=ba1

Bob

 

[timothyedoran]

I have been a bit quiet about my progress and I need to start with an apology for not following some of the advice offered kindly on this forum. Please dont take offence, and you can all reserve an 'I told you so' for when it all goes wrong. I will get my excuses in early and say that I have a very young family, so every moment is precious. Also as this is the family shed, there will never be enough space for any heavy machinery. As much as I have aspirations of a massive workshop, its never going to be more than a glorified shed crammed with my family bikes and other guff.

Anyway enough of the whining. For the base of the workshed, I have opted for some pad foundations instead of the concrete ring or slab otherwise suggested. My neighbour is an oak timber framer and he suggested the pad foundations... so I hope they will be ok. I dug down approx 45cm and then filled with concrete. The pads are 45cm long and 40cm wide, and the corner ones a bit larger again. Then I have laid some concrete blocks, so that the frame will be a minimum of 100mm off the ground.

I have also discovered why wood from Mole Valley Farmers is so cheap. I bought a test bit of 4*2*4.8 and it has warped and twisted. I will now be using regularised and treated kiln dried stuff as advised by other (thanks). I am really pleased that I didn't buy anymore. Locally buildbase is the cheapest for 4*2 c16 or c24

Here is a photo of the pads. Where necessary I made some wooden formers to help keep the concrete neat.


and another


I put some bent metal strapping into the concrete to tie the building down.


To get the blocks level, I laid the first block at the highest point of the site to achieve 100mm above the ground. Then I worked around from there. Here is a photo taken by partner demonstrating jazz hands leveling.


I don't have a chop saw/mitre saw [yet], so I made a little jig for using a hand circular saw. This makes lining up the cuts much easier. Photo is of a test on some scrap wood.


It actually works better than expected and results in nice square cuts. It wont be as quick when making lots of repeated cuts, but it will do.


I cut all the timber for the base and have nailed it all together. I used 3 lengths of timber between the blocks and the frame to temporarily support the joist hangers whilst I nailed them, and these will be removed.


I know that I need to put some DPC under the frame, but I didnt want to damage it when doing the nailing. So next step will be to slide the DPC under the frame and secure the frame to the metal straps. Then walls after that.

 

[timothyedoran]

bonus kudos for the first person to notice the upside down joist hanger

 

[9fingers]

Good progress Tim!

This tend to move a lot faster once you are out of the ground.

I presume the outer cladding will extend below the tops of the concrete blocks? This is so that rain cannot lie on top of the blocks and rot the floor joists.

Bob

 

[timothyedoran]

Good progress Tim!

This tend to move a lot faster once you are out of the ground.

I presume the outer cladding will extend below the tops of the concrete blocks? This is so that rain cannot lie on top of the blocks and rot the floor joists.

Bob

Hi Bob

The blocks are 20mm wider than the frame, so by the time I have battened and cladded they will covered.

 

[Malc2098]

Coming along nicely!

 

[timothyedoran]

Coming along nicely!

Especially as I started my day job this morning at 7 so can finish at 3 and do some more shed.

Opinions on making the walls flat and standing them up vs building them vertical?

 

[Malc2098]

Coming along nicely!

Especially as I started my day job this morning at 7 so can finish at 3 and do some more shed.

Opinions on making the walls flat and standing them up vs building them vertical?

If you look at my 'shop post, I am mostly building mine alone, so I have to make the wall frames in modules that I can carry off the build area. So, I have set up a jig on the floor to horizontally build the frames.

MikeG has reminded me that equal diagonals ensure the frames are square and I then brace them and store vertical leaning up against the fence! I am in the process this morning of building the complex frames involving the doors and windows, again, horizontally on the floor, and again squaring and bracing them before storing upright.

Then, I've got to bribe a mate to help me get all the corner ones locked together and fill in between them. That might be tricky on my own.

But I'm OK with the principle of building them horizontal.

 

[timothyedoran]

Coming along nicely!

Especially as I started my day job this morning at 7 so can finish at 3 and do some more shed.

Opinions on making the walls flat and standing them up vs building them vertical?

If you look at my 'shop post, I am mostly building mine alone, so I have to make the wall frames in modules that I can carry off the build area. So, I have set up a jig on the floor to horizontally build the frames.

MikeG has reminded me that equal diagonals ensure the frames are square and I then brace them and store vertical leaning up against the fence! I am in the process this morning of building the complex frames involving the doors and windows, again, horizontally on the floor, and again squaring and bracing them before storing upright.

Then, I've got to bribe a mate to help me get all the corner ones locked together and fill in between them. That might be tricky on my own.

But I'm OK with the principle of building them horizontal.

Thanks, that is useful to know. Great to see you are making some progress, I had missed your latest photos. I might have an experiment to see what works best. I think maybe a hybrid approach of building and bracing horizontal and then lifting them vertical whilst they are not too heavy and then completing when in situ might work.

I like the diagonal measuring trick it is very effective.

When you have established the cost of the bribe, could you let me know what the going rate is. This will be essential for when I have to bribe some muscle help. When my mate came over, we did a tag team of childcare and hole digging this meant that the childcare did not exhaust us, and we could have a breather digging holes (or maybe the other way around)

 

[Malc2098]

I have a mate who has helped me with a lot so far. The bribe usually involves coffee, tea and biscuits throughout the day, lunch made by Mission Control, banter, laughter, lots of Anglo-Saxon, and a good dollop of 60s music!!! And Ken Bruce's Popmaster on Radio 2!!

 

[TrimTheKing]

...When you have established the cost of the bribe...

Peroni is the bribe of choice for my muscle! bscene-drinkingcheers:

Obviously only for jobs where dangerous power toolage isn't involved! I find that progress tends to speed up towards lunchtime then steadily decline as the day goes on… :lol:

Cheers
Mark

 

[Mike G]

There are many ways to skin a cat, and this sort of foundation and suspended floor can be made to work well. I just want to know how the walls meet the ground, and how you plan to keep insects and vermin out of the underfloor void.
As for building studwork walls, my view is that the only way to do it is to build them flat on the floor or ground, and then raise them into position. The raising needs some thought. You will need to build manageable sized panels.

 

[Deejay]

Good afternoon Tim

That looks good. Are you sheeting it to keep the rain off ?

Here's my two penn'orth. I built the sides of my last workshop on my own in sections made the same width as the OSB lining. Every four foot (or was it 1200 mm - it is important), I bolted adjacent panels together.

If you can, cut both the outside studs of each frame together in one cut, and do the same for the top and bottom. Even if the panel isn't square, it should then be a parallelogram and therefore easier to square up if needed. I screwed wood to the floor to make a jig to assemble the frames.

If the diagonals aren't equal, make a loop of rope and drop it over the corners of the long diagonal. You can then tighten it by putting a batten through the loop about midway between the corners and twisting the rope to shorten the long diagonal, pulling the frame square. Then fit the intermediate studs and brace the panel with a bit of roofing lath.

Erect a frame in a corner and brace it temporarily. I put an additional stud on the outside of the one corner frame. This effectively means a 4" square upright on the side one frame which fits onto the 4" face of the 4 x 2 end stud of the other corner frame. Stick the adjacent frame up round the corner and clamp the two frames together. Fix the bases of the frames to the floor nice and square. If your floor is horizontal all the studs should be vertical. If they are, bolt the frames together in the corner and square the top edges.
( A 3-4-5 triangle of roofing lath comes in handy). Temporarily brace the ends furthest from the corner.

Dont forget to recess the bolt heads on the outside corners so that your cladding will sit flush. Make the counterbores big enough to get a socket head on the bolt on top of a decent sized washer. Brace the top edges of the frames across the diagonal and move on to the next corner. Fill in the gap between the corners, perhaps including a non standard frame and carry on round the base till the panels meet. Check the internal diagonals at the bottom of the corner suds. Then fix your metalwork over the sole plates. Check the diagonals at the top of the corner studs, fit some temporary bracing, fit the wall plate and you are ready for the roof.

I effectively ended up with a 6 x 4 stud on each corner and a 4 x 4 at the junctions of the panels. If I was doing this for a living, I'd probably look for a cheaper solution but I wanted a bit more strength to support the roof anyway.

The one problem you may find is that the width of the windows has to be small enough to fit within a four foot panel.

Some general observations ...

I nailed all my frames together, but If I do another one, I'll use screws. It's easier on the arm and 'undoable' if things go pear shaped. If you do use screws, go for Torx heads and think about investing in an impact driver.

A couple of clamps like these ...

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p19836?searchstr=clamps

are worth their weight in gold.

If you're having a single pitched roof this won't apply. Dont set your windows too high. If you do, any (vertically hinged ) opening lights will foul any overhanging rafters. DAMHIKT. It's now a security feature.

When you fit the cladding, as a possible alternative to Mike's detail, think about ripping the corner out of a 2 x 2 to give an L shaped section. Fit that to the corner studs and board up to it to keep the corners neat.

Good luck with the next bit.

Cheers

Dave

 

[timothyedoran]

I had another productive couple of hours. I have made the back wall and done lots of other cutting. I found that using some cam straps held the bits in place sufficiently to then screw them together.

I will get a friend to help lift the panels. If it was much bigger I would do them in sections. I can just lift the back wall, but not safely.

Dave, I agree that an impact driver is very useful. In fact I bought a dewalt twin pack of drill and driver for this very job. £150 well spent.
Thinking ahead and marking up multiple timbers saved a bit of time

Here is the wall ready. I will nogginise when it's in place

 

[Malc2098]

Looking nice.

Me, too. I got the Makita white pair. And the screws I got from Clas Ohlson have Torx heads. Really pull down well.

 

[Rod]

I used screws on my shed build mainly because I didn't have a gun and they make much less noise than a hammer - neighbours. I could also screw them in at a slant at joints/junctions.

I'd be worried about vermin too - I'm sure most of the rats in my garden come from next door from the vicinity of a garden shed.

Rod

 

[timothyedoran]

I used screws on my shed build mainly because I didn't have a gun and they make much less noise than a hammer - neighbours. I could also screw them in at a slant at joints/junctions.

I'd be worried about vermin too - I'm sure most of the rats in my garden come from next door from the vicinity of a garden shed.

Rod

I was worried about rats too for a while. We live in the countryside. We did have regular rats when we had chickens, but I have not seen any since the chocks left. Also I am convincing myself that the rats will have no more potential space really than under the previous shed, which they ignored. There will be enough space for my killer cat to get under the workshed.

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[RogerS]

When using an impact driver, don't skimp on the quality of the screws otherwise they will snap off at the drop of a hat.

 

[timothyedoran]

I have made quite a lot of progress without too much time spent. All the frames have been constructed and raised.

Here is a couple of photos of the completed frames. For the front frame I did not complete it fully because I realised it would be too heavy to lift.

The it was time to raise the walls. Before I moved each wall I squared and braced them.

I was quite surprised that it all lined up square and plumb. I thought that there would be more faffing around. It seems magic does exist.

My partner also spotted an old door in a garden. She asked the builders if it was looking for a new home and they said help yourself. I retrieved if using the wheel barrow rather than trying to load it on to the car roof. It's 900mm wide and quite heavy. I think my back is paying the price today.

 

[Malc2098]

Up she goes!!!

 

[Crispylettuce]

Great progress!

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[Rod]

Looking good

Rod

 

[Mike G]

I dunno.......I go away for 5 minutes and someone sticks a shed up.