Using Japanese Saws

[Andy Kev.]

A while ago I bought a Japanese saw, more out of curiosity than anything else. It's one of those which is rip on one side and cross cut on the other.

When I use a normal saw, I tend to drift to the right of the line very slightly. Yesterday I tried to rip a couple of pieces with the Japanese saw and drifted to the left consistently and fairly dramatically (1/8" over 6"). Add to that the cuts are slightly more difficult to start due to the teeth being so long.

It does occur to me that I could get one of those magnetic guides to kick the cut off square. I'm not a purist so wouldn't object to doing that in principle, however, it would be nice to acquire the necessary skill.

My instinct is to think that it is essentially a question of getting enough practice in. Has anybody had similar experiences and does anyone have any general tips for using these saws?

 

[AJB Temple]

Guides are not the answer. Stance and technique is.

Generally people are not keeping the saw straight because they are not relaxed and not moving the arm back in a dead straight line through the elbow and backwards. Pressing too hard and standing askew tend to tilt the saws and end up with wonky cuts.

Get some scrap wood, mark several lines and practice cutting. Relax, stand comfortably and in a way that does not impeded straight arm movement. Tell yourself to relax constantly as tension is the enemy of accurate work. Don't rush.

 

[Andy Kev.]

That sounds credible. Do you need to get more above the wood with these saws than with western ones?

 

[novocaine]

Japanese saws are not designed for working at a western bench, they are designed for work on the floor or over low benches.

this means that your typical stance just doesn't work with them. this isn't to say you can't make them work at a western style bench, but you have to adopt a dramatically different approach.

practice is king.

 

[Andy Kev.]

That makes me wonder if I should stand on a low box next to the bench, which in turn makes me think that this could get silly i.e. remodelling my whole working practise just to accommodate a tool I would like to become competent with.

 

[AJB Temple]

My experience is that Japanese saws, of which I have several, work fine at standard bench height. That said, I am quite tall. However, the absolute key to using any saw, whether it be Japanese or western style, is positioning yourself so that that hand, wrist and elbow all work in one plane back and forth in a straight line. I also point my forefinger along the blade too, especially with a backsaw.

When I first started out I practised by marking all around a piece of wood with a square and pencil or knife (making the lines meet perfectly) and then doing numerous cuts taking slices off each time. I taught myself (based on advice similar to this) not to use force, not to get tense and not to allow the blade to deviate from perpendicular. I look over the top of the blade and if I can see one side more than the other, it's not perpendicular.

Straight arm movement is essential - you will never control a saw if you are holding the thing at an angle. A straight action is easy and feels natural and unstressed. Let the saw do the work.

By the way - the long teeth on Japanese saws are not a problem in any way. Just relax and don't force the saw.

 

[novocaine]

shiny saw plates are a great tool for perpendicular Adrian.

 

[droogs]

Depending on whether I am doing a long rip or short my stance is different. On short rips I have the saw very low angle and have the board laid horizontal over the end of the bench. On long rips I stand the board upright and use a long stroke at a very low angle. My body is completely to the side of the cut, left of it if using my right hand and vice versa, this allows my saw arm to swing freely at the shoulder with my elbow just being a pivot point. Once I have established a kerf I then tend to get down on one knee and saw the rest of the cut and find this helps keep everything straight. The secret is to allow the arm to move like a steam piston maybe just not as fast

hth

 

[9fingers]

I just use the table saw. Sooo much easier and polished finish to the cut.

Bob

 

[Andy Kev.]

Novocaine: I use the reflection in the blade of any saw for perpendicular and although the first inch or so of my practice cuts were on line, it rapidly drifted.

AJB: Yep and I'm certainly more or less competent in all of that with my western saws, to the point where e.g. tenons require ever less post-saw trimming up. I suspect it boils down to addressing the Japanese saw slightly differently in order to achieve the same effect. There's obviously no magic bullet though.

Droogs: Maybe the "not as fast" is key.

 

[Glynne]

Whilst I have owned LN & Veritas saws, my go to saws are all Japanese.
I have a selection for cross and rip cutting and a specific one for dovetailing.
I generally don’t use guides and can fully understand the idea of “practice makes perfect” but if I need absolute accuracy and only have one shot at things I will use a guide.
I have 2 guides, both by David Barron - a dovetail guide (1:6) and a 90 degree one.
The only thing to watch out for is if you have a Dozuki (a Saw with a stiffening back) as this might limit your depth of cut but I think you have a Ryoba (teeth on both sides) so you should be fine.
Just to complete the set, the other main saw is a Kataba which is similar to the Dozuki but without the back.

 

[AJB Temple]

shiny saw plates are a great tool for perpendicular Adrian.

Who let Jacob in?

I must admit I also agree with Roger. I only use a handsaw of any kind for quite small cuts or fine work these days. But I do enjoy using hand tools for making delicate things, which is why I am accumulating stuff to make some fine back saws. The table saw, band saw, mitre saw and track saw are fast and accurate....There is no way I would do a long rip cut by hand these days - far too lazy.

Adrian

 

[Malc2098]

I really like my Japanese saws.

I've read through everyone's advice above and would only add what my old WW teacher taught me at school, that the saw, your hand, wrist, elbow and shoulder should all be in line while you're moving the saw backwards and forwards.

Also, the work and your eye should be in a position for you to see two faces of the cut, either the cut line and the one below, or the one above the cut line and the cut.

I also find holding the handle closer to its end (away from the blade) combined with the above tips tends to give me a straight result.

 

[Woodster]

From my fairly limited use of a Japanese saws they are superior on several levels. I do wonder whether they are all created equal and if folks use the right type for the right job.

 

[novocaine]

shiny saw plates are a great tool for perpendicular Adrian.

Who let Jacob in?

Adrian

haha. :lol:

 

[Woodbloke]

My experience is that Japanese saws, of which I have several, work fine at standard bench height. That said, I am quite tall. However, the absolute key to using any saw, whether it be Japanese or western style, is positioning yourself so that that hand, wrist and elbow all work in one plane back and forth in a straight line. I also point my forefinger along the blade too, especially with a backsaw.

When I first started out I practised by marking all around a piece of wood with a square and pencil or knife (making the lines meet perfectly) and then doing numerous cuts taking slices off each time. I taught myself (based on advice similar to this) not to use force, not to get tense and not to allow the blade to deviate from perpendicular. I look over the top of the blade and if I can see one side more than the other, it's not perpendicular.

Straight arm movement is essential - you will never control a saw if you are holding the thing at an angle. A straight action is easy and feels natural and unstressed. Let the saw do the work.

By the way - the long teeth on Japanese saws are not a problem in any way. Just relax and don't force the saw.

:text-+1: Agreed.

Japanese saws can be used at a Western style bench and in my view, it's a bit of myth that they're 'designed' to be used at floor level. If you've ever been to Japan, you'll soon find out that the Japanese do a lot of stuff at floor level, not just woodmangling. The floor working tradition stems from the vast amount of old wooden buildings that are still in evidence in the Japanese countryside and cities. These were built by craftsmen who were imported over some distance to site by the daimyo and set to work. The only tools they could take were those in their toolboxes which were more often than not toted around on the shoulders of the 'young apprentices'. It stands to reason then, that a huge, heavy workbench wasn't going to have much importance. When they did need to plane large stuff, a simple planing beam would have been made on site.

They do require a little more care though than their western counterparts and too much 'oomph' will unquestionably strip out teeth very quickly. If, like me, you use handmade blades which aren't replaceable, that can be an expensive business :shock: .

That said, with the right approach, using a Japanese saw is an effortless, almost sublime experience. I can use my dovetail saw holding it with just finger and thumb and it will simply glide through oak.

Practice is what's needed and a bit of zen to get into the correct mindset - Rob

 

[AJB Temple]

^^ Spot on from Rob.

I think we have had similar experiences in Japan and I bought my first Japanese saws there at the quality end of the market. Still using them.

 

[novocaine]

I didn't say they wouldn't work at a bench, it's nearly the only place I use mine (although it's pretty damn good for some of the random jobs on site too, like cutting slips for door hinges and the like). I said it requires a different stance to western saws which is completely true.

I haven't been to the land of the rising sun, but one day I hope to. obviously I'll take the advice of those far more in the know than I on this topic.

 

[Steve Maskery]

I've just come in from the 'shop and have been using my Japanese back saw. I have lousy eyesight, and it is failing fast, but there are a couple of techniques I use to help me to get the best out of them.

1. Regularly look at both sides of the blade at the same time. This will help you to keep to the line, rather than drifting off. This is harder, if, like me, one eye is OK but the other is just about ready to be served as a delicacy in a tent in the Sahara.

2. Make a back-to-front bench hook. Mine fits between a couple of bench dogs and supports the workpiece on the pull-stroke.

3. Use the shiny surface as a guide for vertical. If you look at the reflection, it should look as if the workpiece goes straight through the blade. If it looks as if it bends up or down, it means you are not cutting vertically.

On the point of quality, not all "Japanese" saws are created equal. I once went to Iceland. There is a tool shop. Just one, of course. How many woodworking tools do you need in a country which does not any trees?*

I bought a Japanese-style saw, made in Sweden. It was rubbish.

S

*Iceland was covered in birch trees "from mountain-top to sea" when the settlers arrived. Their entire history is documented from day 1. Now there are none, just brush. Icelandic joke:

Q: "How do you find you way out of an Icelandic forest if you get lost?"
A: "Stand up."

 

[Woodster]

it's a bit of myth that they're 'designed' to be used at floor level. If you've ever been to Japan, you'll soon find out that the Japanese do a lot of stuff at floor level, not just woodmangling. The floor working tradition stems from the vast amount of old wooden buildings that are still in evidence in the Japanese countryside and cities.Rob

You seem to be contradicting yourself there?

I’ve not been to Japan but in the many Japanese Blacksmithing and Carpentry videos I’ve watched much of the work is indeed done on the floor as you say. The Japanese even have Jika-Tabi shoes so they can grip stuff with their feet.

I’ve certainly found it easier working with Japanese saws at a lower level but perhaps that’s just me.

 

[Robert]

I'd normally be with Bob here and go with a powered saw but I was told I had to come up with a Christmas list so people would have something to buy me... and I put a Japanese Dozuki saw (from amazon) on the list.

It has been a bit of a revelation. Even my dodgy elbows can cut with it with no effort. I've managed to break a few teeth off already as the wood for my table is stupid hard. Still works fine and I've found I can cut shallow curves with it as the blade can flex. Not had any problem cutting to line or wandering off.

I also put a Ryoba on my xmas list too. I've yet to use that. It does look a little intimidating with its double edged blade. Think this saw it what the thread is about. What is its main use? I'm not sure what I'd do with it!

As you may be able to tell I know nothing about Japanese tools

 

[Tiresias]

Ah, I’m reluctant to get involved with a conversation with people that are much more experienced than me. But I’ve started typing… I suppose it is possible that the observations of a tyro like me may have some use. Or maybe not.

I have only ever used cheap Japanese saws. The large double sided one I didn’t get on with at all. Much easier to rip with a western saw, so why bother. The little backless one I really like. What I find is that because you pull it, all you need to do is just that – pull. I have actually found best results from holding the handle right at the end almost between thumb and forefinger.

If that is what you call zen, so be it.

It might be worth checking that your saw is not unevenly set.

Oh, and I have spent some time in Nippon. Fascinating place (for me mostly for the food). So did my father. And, rightly or wrongly, he told me that (unless you wanted to get more deeply into their culture) it was best to treat the Nipponese as a ‘black box’ device: certain inputs would result in certain responses – beyond that they were incomprehensible. Do bear in mind the caveat – he was neither racist or racialist.

And just to complete a, no doubt, meandering ramble, the senior partner of my firm would not countenance the purchase of japanese cars on the company car scheme until well into the 90's when he withdrew from the partnership.

 

[Woodbloke]

it's a bit of myth that they're 'designed' to be used at floor level. If you've ever been to Japan, you'll soon find out that the Japanese do a lot of stuff at floor level, not just woodmangling. The floor working tradition stems from the vast amount of old wooden buildings that are still in evidence in the Japanese countryside and cities.Rob

You seem to be contradicting yourself there?

Interesting...in what way? Beats me if I can see a contradiction :lol:

Oh, and I have spent some time in Nippon. Fascinating place (for me mostly for the food). So did my father. And, rightly or wrongly, he told me that (unless you wanted to get more deeply into their culture) it was best to treat the Nipponese as a ‘black box’ device: certain inputs would result in certain responses – beyond that they were incomprehensible. Do bear in mind the caveat – he was neither racist or racialist.

Again agreed, but we've never used the 'black box' approach on our visits to Japan. We've always, but always found the locals to be unfailingly helpful and polite with whatever 'inputs' we may have generated. We've also taken pains to try to understand a little of their culture which is so very different from our own and which is why for us, the place is so fascinating and our country of choice for foreign travel.
That said, it's far from perfect; the work ethic is back-breaking, they generally treat women as second class citizens and their suicide rate is beyond belief
To my mind, you can judge a country by the state of it's public toilets; we have never, ever found a pongy one! :lol: and also the state of it's public transport, (a ride on the Shinkansen is amazing) but please don't ask me what's going on...



...with these two beauties 'cos I haven't got a clue! :lol: - Rob

 

[AJB Temple]

That accords with my/our experience of Japan too and we have spent months there. Unfailingly courteous, polite and helpful. It is so culturally different that it makes for an amazingly positive experience, especially if you approach the place and people with an open mind. I would happily live in Kyoto.

 

[Chris101]

Far be it for me to pretend to be giving out advice to anyone but one tip I read about using Japanese saws that seems to help me at least, is to wrap your forefinger round the handle with the rest , not (at least as I was 'taught' at school) to have it as on a western saw, pointing down the spine. I don't know why exactly it works but I definitely lean over the saw less too because you're not pushing and I think the two are connected. For me it's more of a horizontal action from the elbow than the shoulder. Legs set different too, more square to the work. :|
Again, this is not meant in anyway as sage advice. I think everyone on here has my number by now. :lol:

 

[Woodbloke]

That accords with my/our experience of Japan too and we have spent months there. Unfailingly courteous, polite and helpful. It is so culturally different that it makes for an amazingly positive experience, especially if you approach the place and people with an open mind. I would happily live in Kyoto.

:text-goodpost: - Rob

 

[Woodster]

it's a bit of myth that they're 'designed' to be used at floor level. If you've ever been to Japan, you'll soon find out that the Japanese do a lot of stuff at floor level, not just woodmangling. The floor working tradition stems from the vast amount of old wooden buildings that are still in evidence in the Japanese countryside and cities.Rob

You seem to be contradicting yourself there?

Interesting...in what way? Beats me if I can see a contradiction :lol:

Rob

Really!?
In your own words you say it’s “a bit of a myth they’re designed to be used at floor level” and then you say “the Japanese do a lot of stuff at floor level” !!!

:text-lol:

 

[Phil]

I just use the table saw. Sooo much easier and polished finish to the cut.

Bob

:text-+1:

And the RAS, and the Hegners (unfortunately no band saw)

The metal saw with its fine teeth blade is also not too shabby on wood. :lol:

 

[Woodbloke]

Really!?
In your own words you say it’s “a bit of a myth they’re designed to be used at floor level” and then you say “the Japanese do a lot of stuff at floor level” !!!

:text-lol:

Semantics of t'interweb :lol: It's the 'designed' bit I was referring to; they aren't 'designed' to be used at floor level at all; they just happen to be used there in Japan but can easily be used on a Western style bench.

I sincerely hope we're not going to have an Pythonesque arguement about this :lol: - Rob

 

[Woodster]

A Pull Style Saw (cutting on the opposite/return stroke) is far more efficient in the seated or kneeling position, as you can use the muscles of your entire body to make the cut, without having to depend on your body weight:

https://www.toolcraft.co.za/blogs/tools ... aws-sawing

 

[AJB Temple]

I think the "use the muscles of your entire body" thing is pretty much nonsense in practice. We all use our muscle sets to maintain our skeletal positioning, all the time A lot of the benefit of using Japanese saws that cut on the pull stroke, is you do not expend much energy in use. Someone who is using their entire body is probably not working efficiently, the exception being long rip cuts in thick wood.

The reason I use Japanese saws quite a lot is they require minimal effort and can be very accurate with a narrow kerf.

 

[Woodster]

The reason I use Japanese saws quite a lot is they require minimal effort and can be very accurate with a narrow kerf.

Yes agreed.

I was interested in seeing these Maebiki being used. They are largely used standing up and the handle is not in line like other Japanese saws but at quite a sharp angle to the blade. A clear difference it seems between saws largely used sitting and those used standing?

https://youtu.be/bcNPutBjQOU

 

[Villa Chemist]

One thing I have noticed on rip cuts is that as soon as you start veering off the line, you cannot correct it. The kerf is so thin that you can’t lean the saw back on line. Much less effort because you are removing less wood, but so hard to get it to track

 

[novocaine]

I also find that if i go dead across the grain (instead of slopping the saw along the grain) in rip cutting it will wander almost straight away. I rarely make a cut like that but it was evident yesterday on the last of a stopped cut.

 

[Woodster]

I was cutting some wood the other day and found the grip on my traditional Japanese saw a bit more slippery than usual. Have any of you added anything to the handle to improve the grip? I’m thinking I’ll try and get a rubberised grip on my next saw purchase.

 

[Malc2098]

I was cutting some wood the other day and found the grip on my traditional Japanese saw a bit more slippery than usual. Have any of you added anything to the handle to improve the grip? I’m thinking I’ll try and get a rubberised grip on my next saw purchase.

That hasn't happened to me. But have you considered an old inner tube, like we used on school cricket bats back in the last century?

 

[MY63]

I was cutting some wood the other day and found the grip on my traditional Japanese saw a bit more slippery than usual. Have any of you added anything to the handle to improve the grip? I’m thinking I’ll try and get a rubberised grip on my next saw purchase.

You could either sand the handle a little or wrap it in leather. My first job was in a butchers shop we used to wrap the knife handles with string to stop them slipping.