Vice Disaster

[Mike G]

I've snapped the casting of my vice:





Is this worth welding, or is it beyond retrieval? I know how tricky welding cast iron is.

Can anyone point me to a diagram showing the correct mounting of a Record 52E, because I feel sure it should be attached to the back of the apron as well as to the underside of the bench top, and this one wasn't. I've noticed excess movement for a week or so, but coincidentally I went to replace the apron on my bench today and discovered the break.

 

[9fingers]

You tuber Doubleboost might be the man to contact. Wallace of this parish knows him?

Bob

This https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN-v4q2Rz6I is part two of such a job. so far I've not found part one where he starts the job.

 

[AndyT]

Ouch!

This is the diagram from Planecraft and the measurements from some old geezer down Bristol way

 

[AJB Temple]

I would not repair that. Massive failure. Vintage 52 1/2 and 53 1/2 come up frequently on the bay. I paid £40 for a pristine 53 1/2 last year.

 

[AndyT]

Here's the rest of what the Hamptons said about fitting their vices.

 

[sunnybob]

I was going to say just scrap it as the repair cost would almost as much as new.
But then I looked up new :shock:

I bought mine new 6 years ago and paid a 100 euro. theyve doubled since then!
So its do to the quality (and cost of course) of the welder.

 

[novocaine]

Repairable but if your paying for it then you may have a shock at the cost.
Its a gas jobby really although I've seen tig used my feel is that gas and a good welder would make a better job. Here in lies the cost. The skill to do this well doesn't come cheap and whilst i know my way round an oxy acet set weld I'd still not do this for someone else.

I hope you find someone to do it.

 

[Trevanion]

Just bolt a bit of 4x3 angle iron to the damned thing and get on with it :lol:

I've got a couple of these with broken back castings (Pulled out of a college skip years ago), it's a very common fault and you can see why as they get quite thin in the middle of the casting. I've been selling the parts off them on the bay and I've probably made enough out of one vice to buy a new (old) one, but I don't need to as I've got a couple of 53Es hiding under the bench in good nick should I ever need more vices.

 

[Mike G]

I would not repair that. Massive failure. Vintage 52 1/2 and 53 1/2 come up frequently on the bay. I paid £40 for a pristine 53 1/2 last year.

Everything is around £75 to £100 now.

 

[Mike G]

Here's the rest of what the Hamptons said about fitting their vices....

Thanks Andy. It, or it's replacement, will certainly be fitted a bit better than the original.

 

[AJB Temple]

I would not repair that. Massive failure. Vintage 52 1/2 and 53 1/2 come up frequently on the bay. I paid £40 for a pristine 53 1/2 last year.

Everything is around £75 to £100 now.

Yes, I just looked. Prices have risen inexplicably. The guy even delivered mine. I think a vintage 53E quick release in very good nick is worth it though. I prefer them as they are bigger. It is earmarked for my new bench and workshop, both of which are a twinkle in my eye still.

Trouble with welding is it may or may not work. Costs money for a skilled job and if it fails you may as well have bought a replacement and fitted it properly. There is one one the bay now with a 52 1/2 back (so it will fit where the old one was) and a 53E front. Might be worth an offer.

 

[Trevanion]

I'm serious about bolting a bit of 4x3 angle to it, by the way. It's the simplest fix and it can't break again although it does bulk up the rear end a bit.

 

[Cabinetman]

Crikey Mike, you’re a beast! What an earth have you been doing to it? I think it’s time for a new one, well a secondhand one and as you said fit it properly this time with a big mortise into the underside of the bench top to take the casting, its how I’ve always done it.

 

[Mike G]

Crikey Mike, you’re a beast! What an earth have you been doing to it?......

I'm trying to think what might have caused it, and all I can think of is loading up one side of the vise and letting it rack excessively.

 

[Mike G]

Can someone tell me (or point me to an article) what the differences are between Record 52 E, 52-1/2E and 53E? Also, if there are any other solid old vises I ought to look at.

The 52E was big enough for my needs, but if bigger were available it wouldn't do any harm. Quick release is an absolute must, though. I use it all the time.

 

[Woodbloke]

I would not repair that. Massive failure. Vintage 52 1/2 and 53 1/2 come up frequently on the bay. I paid £40 for a pristine 53 1/2 last year.

I'd agree; time to get another. Not worth repairing in my view. When I left teaching I 'acquired' half a car full of surplus Record vices which sadly I no longer have - Rob

 

[Trevanion]

Can someone tell me (or point me to an article) what the differences are between Record 52 E, 52-1/2E and 53E? Also, if there are any other solid old vises I ought to look at.

The 52E was big enough for my needs, but if bigger were available it wouldn't do any harm. Quick release is an absolute must, though. I use it all the time.

52 = 7" Jaws
52 1/2 = 9" Jaws
53 = 10 1/2" Jaws

I'm trying to think what might have caused it, and all I can think of is loading up one side of the vise and letting it rack excessively.

When you think about it, everything you do on the vice puts load there, even just clamping something straight across the whole jaw puts stress there so eventually it will give out. But heavy hammering in the vice, while it's clamped, is a sure-fire way of breaking it prematurely.

 

[AndyT]

Can someone tell me (or point me to an article) what the differences are between Record 52 E, 52-1/2E and 53E? Also, if there are any other solid old vises I ought to look at.

The 52E was big enough for my needs, but if bigger were available it wouldn't do any harm. Quick release is an absolute must, though. I use it all the time.

Try this

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/ev ... st-1173133

and the rest of the thread for other makes.

 

[Mike G]

.......
52 = 7" Jaws
52 1/2 = 9" Jaws
53 = 10 1/2" Jaws......

Do the castings get beefier, or is everything the same size other than the width of the faceplate?

 

[Trevanion]

Do the castings get beefier, or is everything the same size other than the width of the faceplate?

I know the bars are differently spaced on each vice as the rear plates aren’t interchangeable, but I couldn’t tell you whether the castings themselves are of a higher quality when you go bigger.

Also neglected to mention that the bigger vices also open out much further.

You could always do what Wallace did the other day and pay £300 for a vice, but it was a Wadkin Patternmaker’s vice which are many times heavier than a 52! :lol:

 

[NickM]

What a shame. I’m not an expert welder by any means but, as you know, cast iron is really hard to do well. I think a replacement is the way to go.

I bought a Katsu 9” vice like this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KATSU-Heavy-Duty-Quick-Release-Wood-Clamp-Vice-9-/293061909166. It seems alright to me but I’ve never tried anything else so having nothing to compare it to.

 

[AJB Temple]

This site is worth a skim through on the vices: https://smallworkshop.co.uk/2018/04/17/record-vice/

I have read somewhere that the 53E has thicker castings but I can't remember where. Some post 1960's ones also have a steel rear plate.

If you want I can photograph my unfitted 53E tomorrow and measure the castings wherever you want. I don't have a 521/2 to compare with during lockdown. (The one I have is in Warwickshire and I am in Kent).

 

[Mike G]

......You could always do what Wallace did the other day and pay £300 for a vice, but it was a Wadkin Patternmaker’s vice which are many times heavier than a 52! :lol:

A/ Wadkins
B/ Wallace

A + B = a combination that ends up in some odd places.

 

[Lons]

Mike
Is yours a 52 1/2? If so then this replacement rear casting might be worth considering for 320 plus 37.50 carriage.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Record-9-inc ... SwxqZf~cF1

 

[Mike G]

Thanks Bob, but it's a 52E.

 

[PAC1]

My 52e broke for about the third time 4/5 years ago. After much debate I bought the Axminster Trade Vice. Apart from the colour I have no regrets. It is well made. The only regret is I wish I had set it further into my bench so that you can put a sacrificial jaw on the bench sideband be almost flush with the bench.

 

[Mike Jordan]

Mike. It's worth having a go at welding it. I have a previous conviction for welding a Wadkin 20" U and O planer back together. It belonged to a friend who had overtightened the feed rollers before inadvertently feeding in a tapered piece in. The bearing castings shattered and the machine became a write off! We vee,d the broken bits out to get penetration, and, after throwing away the rule book, welded using mild steel rods. The repair was only intended to last until finances allowed a replacement to be obtained. To the best of my knowledge the machine is still in working order after more than thirty years and has never been replaced.
Mike.

 

[novocaine]

if you want to package and post it Mike, I'll have a crack at it with the scary stick. it's already fucked, I can't make it any worse.
sending it back is going to cost too.

 

[Mike G]

Interesting, Mike. Thanks. I'm talking to an engineer later who is reputed to weld cast iron well, and we'll see what he says. In the meantime, I'm following one or two 52-1/2s on Ebay and Facebook and stand ready to purchase a replacement.

 

[Mike G]

if you want to package and post it Mike, I'll have a crack at it with the scary stick. it's already *, I can't make it any worse.
sending it back is going to cost too.

That's really kind of you Dave. I'll see what the local guy says first, then I might come back to you.

 

[novocaine]

I wonder how close of a copy something like a faithfull would be and if you could use your front plate and all the important moving bits on one of their back plates.

having looked at the price though, I'd try and find one to compare before stumping the cash, I paid considerably less than what they are selling for at the moment. (shock, I have a cheap vice too at least my machinest vice is a good one)

 

[pitch pine]

Parkinson vices are worth looking at, similar build quality to Records. The one I had was painted a maroon colour, not sure of the number.

 

[Mike G]

It may be a silly little thing, but I have always had a dust cover over the thread of the vices I have used, and I am pretty sure that Parkinson and Record went their different ways before the dust cover came into being. With lubricant on the screw, I just can imagine how the gunk would build up. They look really nice robust vices, but I'm not looking at anything without a dust cover.

 

[AJB Temple]

There are those who say that the thread dust cover was only introduced by Record as a differentiator when their patent was due to expire. Seems like a good idea to me though.

 

[Mike G]

The current state of play is that I am definitely going to replace the vice, preferably with a 52 1/2E, or maybe a 53E, because if you are going to spend on a once-in-a-lifetime replacement you may as well upgrade in the process. So if anyone spots one for sale anywhere, I'd be grateful for a link. I've chased one or two which people have suggested by PM, but they have run into the sands.

 

[Mike G]

Relax everyone........I've bought a replacement. bscene-drinkingbuddies: bscene-drinkingcheers:

 

[AJB Temple]

Cool. What did you get in the end?

 

[Mike G]

A 52 1/2E. A bit scruffy, but looks sound.

 

[Lons]

Well done Mike ignore my last pm sent a few minutes ago.
Is that your spending budget blown for the year? It might be worth selling your broken vice for parts.

 

[Mike G]

I've had an offer from a forumite to have a crack at welding it, and then it will see light duties as a tail vice. I've never had one before, and if it fails, then it will go for spares.