Vice Disaster

[Lons]

Worth doing if the weld works, I had an old 7" Parkinson quick release which I fitted on the end of my bench and it gets a fair bit of use.

 

[wallace]

On the subject of vices, some kind fellow namely andytools gave me the heads up on a holy grail vice.
I've wanted a wadkin pattern makers vice for years, I've only seen a couple come up in 1O years and they went for daft money.
These things weigh around 75kg, I'm not sure how the courier carried it in.



It doesn't look that big in the previous pic, but when you sit in on top of a record vice :shock:



This thing can be altered to clamp tapers and can rotate and tilt

 

[novocaine]

has it got all the parts with it? the underside support arm to let it swing away from the bench is normally missing.

looks the business, you are a lucky lucky man.

 

[wallace]

Yes its got the pivot bracket

 

[Steve Maskery]

I thought that the 1/2 refered to it having a front dog. Am I mistaken?

 

[AndyT]

I thought that the 1/2 refered to it having a front dog. Am I mistaken?

Yes, the models with a front dog have a D after the number. There's a simple series of sizes, with the width of the jaws and depth of opening going up in step. But as with intermediate sizes of planes, there's an intermediate half number.

https://archive.org/details/RecordTools ... 6/mode/1up

 

[Steve Maskery]

Ah, thanks Andy.

 

[Mike G]

Andy, just as a matter of interest, do you have all these ads etc already stored digitally, or do you go off and do the appropriate scan each time?

 

[AndyT]

Andy, just as a matter of interest, do you have all these ads etc already stored digitally, or do you go off and do the appropriate scan each time?

Most of the time, it's all available to anyone, online already. For tool catalogues, we should all be grateful to a guy called Mark Stansbury. He has collected and organised over 5000 catalogues into the International Tool Catalogue Library - https://archive.org/details/internation ... loglibrary - which is a really rich source of information.

A few catalogues in there do belong to me, and I have sent scans of them to Mark for inclusion in the library, but my own collection is relatively modest.

 

[Chris101]

On the subject of vices, some kind fellow namely andytools gave me the heads up on a holy grail vice.
I've wanted a wadkin pattern makers vice for years, I've only seen a couple come up in 1O years and they went for daft money.

That's a cracker Wallace! I'm glad it turned up ok. I saw the guy only had a post or two previously so I'm glad my fears were unfounded. Bit of a steal really considering a 'normal' bench top record regularly goes for half that price if not more. :eusa-clap: I might have snapped that up so I'm glad you'd already bought it when I saw the ad! It went to the right home. :mrgreen:

 

[Trevanion]

I might have snapped that up so I'm glad you'd already bought it when I saw the ad! It went to the right home. :mrgreen:

He was just lucky that I was banned, otherwise, I would've had it and sold/ransomed it to him for £100 dearer :lol:

 

[novocaine]

To late now but

https://vintagetoolshop.com/collections ... ired-35692

 

[Cabinetman]

I can’t imagine how/why that vice needed to be welded on those bottom corners like that and also brazed on the flat bar that flips the quick release, last time I looked (5 to 6 years ago) I could’ve had a near perfect one for £50, as has been said things are going up and up and up. Ian

 

[Custard]

I made a second bench for my workshop a month or two ago, and fitted an older style 52 1/2.

Interestingly the older style vice had webbing cast into it that may well have prevented the breakage you experienced, you can see the webbing in this photo. I don't know when Record changed the design?



It was slightly more fiddly to fit, but nothing too serious.



This is the finished job.

 

[AJB Temple]

Interestingly the older style vice had webbing cast into it that may well have prevented the breakage you experienced, you can see the webbing in this photo. I don't know when Record changed the design?

I believe Custard it was changed in 1963 when Record updated the design quite radically. The removal of the webbing made it easier to fit. This site has details. https://smallworkshop.co.uk/2018/04/17/ ... esign_1940

Adrian

 

[Custard]

This site has details. https://smallworkshop.co.uk/2018/04/17/ ... esign_1940

Adrian

I've never come across that site before, very interesting. Thanks for the link.

 

[nabs]

It may be a silly little thing, but I have always had a dust cover over the thread of the vices I have used, and I am pretty sure that Parkinson and Record went their different ways before the dust cover came into being. With lubricant on the screw, I just can imagine how the gunk would build up. They look really nice robust vices, but I'm not looking at anything without a dust cover.

the screw and nut cover was an excellent idea and Parkinson licensed it from Record to use on their vices too 'https://smallworkshop.co.uk/2018/03/25/parkinsons-patent-perfect-vise/
The strengthening webs on the rear carriage disappeared when the Record range was revamped in the early 1960s. I suppose it makes fitting easier in some circumstances, although I blame cost cutting.

 

[AndyT]

Hi Nabs, and welcome. Plenty of familiar faces round here, thirsty for vice research!

 

[Woodster]

Do you really need a vice?

https://youtu.be/yvhn-PAfEW4

 

[Lons]

Do you really need a vice?

https://youtu.be/yvhn-PAfEW4

Interesting view Woodster I've seen that before and he has demonstrated how you can manage without but not suggested any disadvantages to having a vice fitted and I can't see why anyone wouldn't want a vice. Whether you NEED one is a different question and in a similar category to whether you NEED more than one chisel, plane, hammer, pencil, pair of specs or whatever.

I'm happy to have 2 vices fitted personally and use both of them often enough for justification. I can't justify a dozen planes though.

 

[Lons]

Custard, that's not a workbench it's a piece of furniture. :eusa-clap: Is your workshop always that tidy :shock:

 

[novocaine]

Par, sod the vice, do you really need a bench? They didnt bother in the olden days.

[youtubessl]qChjWr00mmQ[/youtubessl]

 

[Cabinetman]

Very interesting, the things people do.

 

[Custard]

Custard, that's not a workbench it's a piece of furniture. :eusa-clap: Is your workshop always that tidy :shock:

That's kind of you to say Loads, but it's really just a very basic bench with a birch ply drawer cabinet slung underneath.

I'm a big proponent of drawers under benches, I much prefer them to tool chests or to cupboards. Of course a lot depends on what you make and how you make it, but for the kind of hand/power tool cabinet making that I do, then I believe you can make some significant efficiency gains with three features.

Firstly a method that allows clamping from the rear. In practise this means either a split top or, what I prefer, removable trays.Here's my main bench, and you can see the trays. I also have spare trays that can take the small items required for specific jobs, so they can get swapped in and out to support whatever job I happen to be working on.



And here's what it looks like with a tray removed and a large F Clamp inserted. Really useful for a whole range of tasks ranging from edge shooting veneers to copy routing long curves.



Secondly, a run of drawers sufficient to take most of your commonly used hand tools. Here's another photo of my main bench. The black tool chest was my grandfathers, he raised a family with the contents of that chest. But it's main application was when he was an itinerant journeyman in Canada, travelling vast distances between jobs. For someone permanently resident in one workshop then under bench drawers make far more sense for tool storage. As you can see the tool chest and the drawer cabinet are about the same size, but the drawers actually have way more practical storage capacity.



And thirdly, a "shelf" formed by the top surface of the drawer cabinet. The importance of this is that it allows most of the tools or components that would normally clutter up your bench to be kept out of the way, but still instantly to hand. Here's the "shelf" on my new, secondary bench.



There was a time in a previous life when my workshop was a tiny garden shed in central London, I discovered that a critical improvement in my personal efficiency came when I could reduce my sharpening kit to a square of ply that lived on a shelf like this. That really was a turning point as it meant that for the first time the act of sharpening didn't massively disrupt the process of making. After that my tools were always sharp as there was no incentive to just soldier on with semi blunt cutting tools.

One day when I get some time maybe I'll post a thread on my personal thoughts on bench design. I'm not entirely convinced that Chris Schwarz and Paul Sellers are taking woodworkers in the most practical direction. When I look at professional furniture makers I'd estimate that more than half make under bench tool drawers a central factor in how they work.

 

[AJB Temple]

Custard, I for one would be very interested in your thoughts on bench design. I plan to make one - though not until next year - and am very open to ideas.

My main bench currently was a purchased Sjoberg beech bench that I've had for 20 years. It has drawers and a cupboard beneath. However, it's not big enough or heavy enough and it racks because of the bolt together construction. I used it when making a reproduction of an antique Laburnum chair over Christmas and the bench movement when I was carving and rasping drove me to distraction.

 

[TrimTheKing]

Custard, I for one would be very interested in your thoughts on bench design. I plan to make one - though not until next year - and am very open to ideas.

Yep same here!!

 

[Woodbloke]

Custard, I for one would be very interested in your thoughts on bench design. I plan to make one - though not until next year - and am very open to ideas.

Yep same here!!

I have basically the same as Custard's bench which is probably based on the Emir cabinet maker's bench, see here:

https://www.shopaessolutions.co.uk/emir ... bench.html

We had these at Shoreditch College in the 'shops and they were subject to all sorts of abuse :eusa-whistle: from the students from the early 50's through to when the college closed some time in the 80's. They are completely bomb proof!

The one in the link has a 50mm solid beech top (no apron) but mine has a 75mm top, 75mm square legs with removable trays in the bench well. I also used an additional, draw bolted rail at the rear just under the top to prevent 'racking'

The main thing with any bench, no matter how you do it, is mass and you need lots of it. The 'Schwarz' mentioned that once a bench gets to around 300Kg (I think?) it ain't going anywhere, no matter what you do to it- Rob

 

[MattS]

I’m also in a position where I will be making a bench soon.

I’ve read quite a bit but never owned or used a decent bench! So Rob and others do you find the fact the legs aren’t flush with the front a problem?

Rob that wasn’t Shoreditch College, near Egham was it?

 

[Woodbloke]

I’m also in a position where I will be making a bench soon.

I’ve read quite a bit but never owned or used a decent bench! So Rob and others do you find the fact the legs aren’t flush with the front a problem?

Rob that wasn’t Shoreditch College, near Egham was it?

No problem whatsoever; the main thing IMO is that you have a very substantial top with no apron; the construction of a proper cabinet maker's bench means that you don't need one. Having a deep apron as you'll find on a joiner's bench means that it's almost impossible to use a G or F clamp to hold anything onto the bench top. It also hampers installing an under bench top drawer or units.

Shoreditch was near Egham overlooking the Thames and Runnymede. It was, I believe home at one time to the Indian Army Forestry Dept or similar (I think, not sure) who planted some really magnificent trees in the grounds. Sadly the college closed in the early 80's and the site is now being redeveloped with flats etc at truly eye watering prices - Rob

 

[MattS]

The college closed in the 80s but the campus became Brunel University's design campus - which I spent 4 happy years at in the early 2000s. You're right about the trees, it had lovely grounds to it.

I don't know all the details about the campus redevelopment in addition to the flats you mention I know they are making the main older buildings into a luxury retirement village with flats..... maybe I can spend my later years there :lol:

 

[Mike G]

My (ex-school) bench has an apron, which I've just replaced. However, it is only 4 inches wide, and by gluing a second piece on the back it is now some 60mm deep....which makes clamping easy. If I was starting from scratch I probably wouldn't end up where I am now, but the bench works fine, and there is little point changing it.

 

[Malc2098]

All my school woodwork assistants came from Shoreditch College.

One used to tell stories of what went on there during down time. Can only remember the one about filling the motorbike combination tank with ether then riding it off the top of the hill. Apparently the combo carried on, riderless, all the way into the Thames.

I visited the college in 1967 while doing my A Levels with view to following those assistants, but it never happened.

 

[Cabinetman]

My bench has an apron which I have drilled here and there to put dogs in, two of them are level with the bars of the vice to support long pieces, others are placed so that I can put hold fasts in them to hold wood against The apron, holding things down onto the bench again is done with holdfasts (Gramercy) on the odd occasion I want to cramp down onto the bench top as you describe I grab a 2 foot sash cramp. Ian

 

[NickM]

My bench has an apron which I have drilled here and there to put dogs in, two of them are level with the bars of the vice to support long pieces, others are placed so that I can put hold fasts in them to hold wood against The apron, holding things down onto the bench again is done with holdfasts (Gramercy) on the odd occasion I want to cramp down onto the bench top as you describe I grab a 2 foot sash cramp. Ian

Good to see someone else with a radiator on their bench!

 

[Cabinetman]

Ha ha yes turned it off completely yesterday, just now went outside of my workshop and realised the air was warmer out than in, things are really springlike here.

 

[Woodbloke]

My bench has an apron which I have drilled here and there to put dogs in, two of them are level with the bars of the vice to support long pieces, others are placed so that I can put hold fasts in them to hold wood against The apron, holding things down onto the bench again is done with holdfasts (Gramercy) on the odd occasion I want to cramp down onto the bench top as you describe I grab a 2 foot sash cramp. Ian
View attachment 3

If that bench top is an even thickness all the way across and it looks to be about 75mm (the same as mine) I'm sorry, but you don't actually need an apron. It will work fine without one. If you choose to add an apron, for whatever reason, that's a completely different kettle of worms.

Fr'intance, without an apron on the bench you can...



...use a small (or large) G/F clamp to hold something on the edge. Note also the pull out bench drawer which is difficult to achieve with an apron. Also the much bigger storage space underneath the bench top.

Without an apron, you can also use a deep throat G clamp...



...to hold somat in the middle of bench (and this applies along the whole of the bench length) and it you're really clever (like wot me and Custard are :eusa-dance: ) and you have a removable bench well bottom (or trays) you can then clamp....



...somat from both sides, which on occasions is incredibly useful.

I know that there are combinations of holdfasts etc etc than can be used and yes, you can grab a 2' sash cramp but for me, that would be a real faff! As ever it's horses for dooberies and in my view, an apron makes life a lot more complicated when simple is usually much better. I like simple; simple works - Rob

 

[Cabinetman]

That’s very interesting, but as you say horses for dewberries, curious why you haven’t got your rear vice cheek set in to the bench, I find it very useful so that I can do this,

 

[Cabinetman]

I’ll see your F cramp gripping from both sides of the bench and raise you a lift up planing stick haha
But aren’t we both very lucky boys.

 

[Woodbloke]

That’s very interesting, but as you say horses for dewberries, curious why you haven’t got your rear vice cheek set in to the bench, I find it very useful so that I can do this,

I don't need to; I've got a widget that plugs into 'oles in the front leg on the right hand side. As long as the plank's held in the vice all it needs is a bit of support at the other end.

You still appear not to have a bench drawer though and your under-bench space is severialy limited - Rob

Edit - the planing stick is a good idea and would be dead easy to add to the inner bench side

 

[Cabinetman]

I have a shelf which you can see on runners, and that’s full of screws. I’ve never liked having tools underneath my bench, and from a security point of view my regular hand tools are all in a rack which is locked away in the tool cupboard with the power tools. Unlike a lot of people I don’t have a huge lot of tools I have found that I can make virtually anything I want with my basic set, most of them are the ones I went to College with 40 plus years ago. It does help though having a good lineup of big bits of kit as well lol. Ian
Well I’m not really limited for under bench space as the one you can see is only half of it, it’s L-shaped total length about 20 feet – you would hate it nothing but junk underneath ha ha