why o why......

[clogs]

perhaps it's just meeeee......
why is it all I ever see is JET wood lathes ...
is it that they are so cheap as to give them away.....????

My pet hate is the motor stuck out the front to catch all the rubbish and dust.....
and almost big enough to catch out the unwary......

as a retired proto-type engineer that carp effort would not get out the door.....
has nobody told them.....?

I remember when working in California just as JET started selling....cheap by comparison to the US made machines......
sales were fierce, but within in a year or so they were being unloaded secondhand.....
Why I wonder.....????
to me it seems that they have not learnt to improve the breed.......

rant over,
back to my 40 year old monster 1/2 ton iron lathe.....it'll still be working in another 40 years.....

 

[Mike G]

Welcome clogs.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of your argument (I don't turn, so I have no idea), just imagine for a second how many of our members might have a Jet lathe if they are so ubiquitous. Attacking someone's choice of machine might cause a few hackles to rise, I'd guess.

 

[Lons]

They might be cheap in the USA but not here in the UK as far as I know and I don't see floods on them on the secondhand market.
I have 2 lathes the smallest one is a jet and I hung on to it when I bought the slightly larger machine, solidly built, accurate and reliable, if it wasn't I'd have sold it on but I guess you can only speak as you find.
As a matter of interest have you ever owned a Jet lathe?

cheers
Bob

Edit
I assumed you mean wood turning lathes but just realised you might be posting about metal lathes in which case my comments aren't relevant
:eusa-think:

 

[9fingers]

I too don't turn wood but one of my favourite machines is a Jet 8" Planer built like a brick outhouse and has stayed aligned perfectly over many years.
However I do feel that the accountants might be running Jet now. A good few years back they bought out a 10" P/T. That had been cheapened down to a price to the extent that the thicknessing table did not have a lock on it and would slowly creep downward during a batch of thicknessing with the obvious results. I designed a retrofit lock and made loads of the things and sold to hobbyists from Turkey to Scandinavia.
Axminster were approached as a possible stockist but they felt that as Jet resellers they could not stock something that pointed out a flaw in the Jet design. Jet were approached about the problem and they suggested was to sell an add on digital readout which did not fix the problem, it just told you that it had happened (if you looked at it) and enabled resetting to the correct setting.

After a year or so they modified the design to incorporate a lock and thankfully I no longer had to make any more kits.

I still think Jet have dropped their standards as certainly their pillar drills are relative cr4p compared to the early models.

Bob

 

[Trevanion]

I've got a Jet Pillar drill that I bought basically brand new in the box (Still sellotaped shut and hot-banding around the box) but had been stored in a barn for around ten years or so, whilst built reasonably well the amount of play in the spindle is absolutely shocking. The quill itself seems a pretty decent fit in the casting but somewhere the spindle just rattles about a millimeter back and forth so I'm not sure if that's a bearing issue or what!

I've been meaning to take the head apart and see if there's anything that can be done to help it but I haven't got around to it yet. It's one of these older models and from doing a little research they did seem to have a common fault of play in the spindle.

 

[Mike G]

The newest machine I own was probably built in the 70s. Some conversations just pass me by....

 

[Woodbloke]

A good few years back they bought out a 10" P/T. That had been cheapened down to a price to the extent that the thicknessing table did not have a lock on it and would slowly creep downward during a batch of thicknessing with the obvious results. I designed a retrofit lock....

I still think Jet have dropped their standards as certainly their pillar drills are relative cr4p compared to the early models.

Bob

...and I still have mine and use it all the time on my Jet 260. Some time ago I was nattering to Tim Styles at a certain well known tool emporium who explained that although the Jet p/t's appear to be industrial, they're not. Users were apparently taking off far too much both over and under the table, with the expectation that the machine would 'cope'. They didn't which caused a lot of problems, particularly with motor failures.

I also have a bench mounted Jet pillar drill which is also now a few years old and I've had no issues with it any way. It's not built like a Chieftan tank as many older ones were, but to use a current phrase 'it does what it says on the tin' - Rob

 

[wallace]

The newest machine I own was probably built in the 70s. Some conversations just pass me by....

My newest machine is 1947 and oldest 19OO I tell a lie Ive got one of those triton clone PT's which works really well, well the thicknesser does

 

[RogerS]

Yup. And there's the perennial recurring problem with the electronic design in their re-circulating air filter. Components designed down to a price, over-rated and so the board will fail. Again. And again.

 

[Phil]

The newest machine I own was probably built in the 70s. Some conversations just pass me by....

Must be the electric food prep machine in the kitchen? :lol:

 

[Phil]

Any machine from anywhere in the world priced in USD or GBP is expensive here!

We have a few Jet lathe owners on the forum.

I bought the baby Jet when we moved as I did not have space for the 1935 Walker Turner.
It is solidly built.
Just run a piece of thin ply under the bed and over the motor and make it part of the dust extraction.

 

[Woodster]

My pet hate is the motor stuck out the front to catch all the rubbish and dust.....
and almost big enough to catch out the unwary......

? You’re not looking at the back of the lathe are you?

 

[Doug]

Having just googled images of jet lathes I understand the OP comments, most (not all) of their motors seem to be fitted under the bed & although Jet aren’t alone in this design I’ve never understood how having all the detritus from turning falling on the motor to be drawn into the motors fan & then deposited all over the workshop can be called a good design :eusa-think:

 

[Lons]

Yeah my Axminster lathe is the same as my Jet with the motor under, all I did was slide a bit of 1mm thick ABS on top of the motor between it and the bed, easily pulled out it catches most of the shavings and dust.

 

[DaveL]

Well the motor on my JET lathe is not in the path of the shavings.

 

[Woodster]

Googling Jet Woodturning Lathes.

https://www.jettools.com/us/en/c/woodwo ... 0?filter=1

Shows that only the three smallest have the motor under the bed. The three largest have the motor at the back. As said, this is not unusual. In fact Axminster Tools 6 smallest lathes all have the motor in the same place as do Record Powers 3 smallest. Plus, Rutlands, Charnwood, Draper and Lumberjack just to name a few.

The OP’s question should therefore have been “why do small lathes have the motor under the bed”. To which the answer is I expect, it’s a convenient place to put it. At this point I should add that Axminster have sold shed loads of their Taiwanese made AT1416VS/AT350WL type lathes to clubs and pro demonstrators as well as the public over the years and I’m not aware of any issues as a result of motor placement? Do let me know if there is an issue though as I have one of them! :lol:

 

[heimlaga]

My oldest mechine is from 1885 and my newest from the early 1980-ies so I am a bit outside this....... but as I have had all my machines apart and rebuilt and upgraded them and tried to fix design shortcomings I cannot stop wondering:

Why are flawed or inferrior design features copied over and over again?
When looking at new machinery especially at the lower end of the market from my perspective I see machines that seem to be desiogned by engineers who never strought an independent thought and never drew an independent conclusion and never used a woodworking machine.

This means that in some instances they come up with good designs just by starting from good designs and tweaking them a bit....... but when there is a shortcoming in the model that everybody starts from the shortcoming is bound to be cloned well into the 23rd century with no technical development taking place watsoever.
A sort of technical standstill. There seems to be no incentive to improve anything.
In contrast my elderly machines are full of improvement attempts made at the time when they were designed. Some total failiours. Some decent. Some good. Some outright excellent yet forgotten by modern day machine makers. Somewhere around the 1980-ies that creativity was apparently lost....or killed off......

This is not a question of Jet nor any particular brand. It is about the market as a whole.

 

[RogerS]

...... Somewhere around the 1980-ies that creativity was apparently lost....or killed off......

This is not a question of Jet nor any particular brand. It is about the market as a whole.

China's start to develop its manufacturing base coincides with this timeframe.

 

[AndyP]

Do you not feel that is some cases it is market led?
There is a whole generation , or two now, that always want something for nothing and seem willing to throw away and replace when it stops working or they, the user, gets bored. Strangely this has coincided with an increase in disposable income. How this income is spent of course is fascinating.
There are quality machines but few are prepared to pay or are prepared to pay and put up with the shortcomings.

 

[Woodster]

Just out of interest I’d be interested to know what percentage of average income something like a Union Graduate was in say 1960?

Of course these days the choice is very much bigger. There are a huge range of lathes in the £250 To £3000 price range and quite a few £3000+ models.

 

[RogerS]

Do you not feel that is some cases it is market led?
There is a whole generation , or two now, that always want something for nothing and seem willing to throw away and replace when it stops working or they, the user, gets bored. Strangely this has coincided with an increase in disposable income. How this income is spent of course is fascinating.
There are quality machines but few are prepared to pay or are prepared to pay and put up with the shortcomings.

Chicken or egg, maybe ? If China hadn't started churning out cr*p products at very low prices then there would be no market to lead !

 

[droogs]

China's policy has been to copy and produce over the last 25 - 30 years. Learn the game of the west. It has in modern times never really been an introducer or creator/innovator of technology, that all stopped with the collapse of the first dynasty. After all choosing the nations chief engineer by who writes the best poem about a bridge rather than who designs the best bridge explains why they were taken over and overtaken by the west in the early modern era.

Now that it understands and basically fully controls the worlds base of fabrication, they are now taking what they now know and are starting to innovate, with the help of a bit of industrial espionage at the same time, a leopard can't change it's spots.

 

[AndyP]

Just out of interest I’d be interested to know what percentage of average income something like a Union Graduate was in say 1960?

Of course these days the choice is very much bigger. There are a huge range of lathes in the £250 To £3000 price range and quite a few £3000+ models.

From lathes.co.uk

In the late 1930s the basic bench model sold for £15 : 10s : 0d equipped with a countershaft, the treadle lathe for £17 : 10s : 0d and the motorised version for £ 26 : 0s : 0d. Backgear and changewheel guards were supplied as standard but covers for the drive belts were extra: fifteen shilling for a lower shield or £2 : 0s :0d for full enclosure. The lathe was supplied as standard with a faceplate, two Morse centres, one wood-drive centre, 10 changewheels, a screwcutting chart, spanners and drive belt.

from pocketpence.co.uk

Wages in the industrial sector followed the same general pattern as the agricultural sector. In 1930 the average wage for a timework labourer in the engineering field was just under a shilling per hour; it dipped in 1933-4, then climbed again to around 1s 2d by 1938. In some cases, wage cuts were more severe.

That's 10s 6d for a 40 hour week (I think)
Someone who is old enough to now how can divide £15 10s 0d by 10s 6d to find out how many weeks to earn enough to buy the basic model.

 

[RogerS]

...
That's 10s 6d for a 40 hour week (I think)
Someone who is old enough to now how can divide £15 10s 0d by 10s 6d to find out how many weeks to earn enough to buy the basic model.

31 ?

 

[clogs]

Well, that question raised a pretty good split......

say what ya want I'm thick skined....and once out of a 5 year apprenticeship I've been TOTALY
self employed....now 72 and I dont care anymore......
So spending MY money on machines/tools is like cutting ur wrists...it always has been......

Not all but most modern lathes seem to be cut from the same cloth as it were............
My main gripe is:-
when the likes of Axminster, Record etc etc buy in this carp for just a few hundred squids then sell em on for thousands....
there's no problem with making a profit tho, JUST EXCESS profit...
it's just these basic DIY machines at nearly pro prices.....forget the HYPE.....

YES...for those who want to know....
I had some of those early Jet machines in the US...virtually no change in design....couldn't afford any home grown variaties (USA) even used..... unfortunately when starting out....
but in the end it didn't take long before I found I could'nt do without them.....

I see it all the time on other sites about tables not machined prop, even with blob weld repairs.....
Bandsaws that the tables don't line up..and on and on...this is not just the one off, it's all the time......
Even so called proved Warco metal machines have the same basic problems and dont ask about spare parts.....
to me it seems 50% of the questions asked is about cheap new'ish machinery....

COS IT"S HEAVY doesn't make it good......

I want u guy's to get the best from ur new machines and that when u buy new u get something decent....
I have a panchant for old machines (I'm crazy) but when I do buy new it is always made in the EU....or just a little bit further....
I would prefer to give my money to something made HERE not Asia in general, even at an additional cost......
These Euro firms won't be here unless they are supported...then what kind rubbish will YOU have to put up with then...?
at least the OLD OLD machines will have a better value.....even useable collectors items....!!! who knows..
I do own a modern Taiwan made Myford VMF metal milling machine but it was made to a spec not price.....

So unless somebody starts to complain about poor quality, it's all your going to get for the future......
I also have a prob with the importers for not upping the quality and designs.....
They are the ones in control really.....if they don't buy em the factories will have to change.....
Like most firms, if they have a "DESIGNER" most of the time they never leave the office and have no idea on use of machines....perhaps the coppy cats are even worse.......
Even Wadkin turned out the odd dog but was soon there to correct the prob....
Think about it, the reason Wadkin and others are not here now is because WE DIDN"T support them....
We just bought cheaper and struggled on with it.....even spending more of our money to get it right.....
Yes, management failures where a problem as well........

So now it's up to you.....when u next got to the showrooms looking for a machine.....
DO YOUR HOMEWORK.....look for problems not the shiney paint, and even that can be bad as well...hahaha.

Just how many people in the show room use this stuff..?..
poss because of a super price discount but DO they dream of something better...??????????..

Remember, prob about 60% of the price if not more is clear profit, after overheads.....
Go for a deal......
there may be a machine shortage right now but there's an even bigger shortage of people with cash......

I dont like to cause problems, ever.....but lets just up the anti for quality that's all I ask.....
Quality is not expensive if you start from the ground up....apart from the tower in Pisa.....hahaha...
YOU see the young and or inexperienced having set up and use probs all the time......
these or any machines should be good out of the box at these prices.....
were not buying Pound Land products.....

yes, I'm perhaps crazy for spending good money transporting a Wadkin RS lathe across Europe but nothing apart from a VB will do what I want...and I cant justify spending £4,000 on a single use machine.... .
but it's what you have to do to get what you want......

well It's good bye from me......
take care out there.......

 

[Doug]

You’re leaning against an open door with most of that for me, I try my best not to buy from China as I know the retailer is hell bent on just maximising profit.
I’ve said it before, customer service starts with supplying a tool fit for purpose & not using the customer as quality control, until the likes of Axminster start doing this I’ll not buy from them.

 

[Woodster]

You’re leaning against an open door with most of that for me, I try my best not to buy from China as I know the retailer is hell bent on just maximising profit.
I’ve said it before, customer service starts with supplying a tool fit for purpose & not using the customer as quality control, until the likes of Axminster start doing this I’ll not buy from them.

Axminster Tools make some very nice stainless steel wood turning chucks and centres etc in their factory in Axminster on the latest CNC machines.

 

[DaveL]

If you look that picture of my lathe, it has an Axminster chuck mounted on it.

 

[Doug]

You’re leaning against an open door with most of that for me, I try my best not to buy from China as I know the retailer is hell bent on just maximising profit.
I’ve said it before, customer service starts with supplying a tool fit for purpose & not using the customer as quality control, until the likes of Axminster start doing this I’ll not buy from them.

Axminster Tools make some very nice stainless steel wood turning chucks and centres etc in their factory in Axminster on the latest CNC machines.

I’ve heard this said before, funnily enough a good friend bought one of their chucks & it was faulty, he sent it back & was told it would be 16 weeks before they could replace it, seems an inordinate amount of time to replace a faulty chunk made in their own workshop. :eusa-think:
& it was a couple of years ago pre covid.

 

[Woodbloke]

Axminster Tools make some very nice stainless steel wood turning chucks and centres etc in their factory in Axminster on the latest CNC machines.

They're also exported to Canada and sold by Veritas across the pond. I use the SK114 and as far as I'm concerned it's very difficult to find fault with it. Stainless steel body, loads of different jaws etc to fit it; works for me!
I've seen the machining operation first hand and although I'm no expert in any way, it looks to be a very sophisticated set-up - Rob

 

[Woodster]

Axminster Tools make some very nice stainless steel wood turning chucks and centres etc in their factory in Axminster on the latest CNC machines.

They're also exported to Canada and sold by Veritas across the pond. I use the SK114 and as far as I'm concerned it's very difficult to find fault with it. Stainless steel body, loads of different jaws etc to fit it; works for me!
I've seen the machining operation first hand and although I'm no expert in any way, it looks to be a very sophisticated set-up - Rob

Yes I was lucky enough to go on an Axminster tour, very interesting. They had some good stuff on their sales table as well, I got some chuck jaws for £5 because they were old black ones but clearly unused, and also a live centre for a fiver as well. I’ve been using both a lot and they’re brilliant. Having tried other makes I wouldn’t buy anything else.

 

[Woodbloke]

Yes I was lucky enough to go on an Axminster tour, very interesting. They had some good stuff on their sales table as well, I got some chuck jaws for £5 because they were old black ones but clearly unused, and also a live centre for a fiver as well. I’ve been using both a lot and they’re brilliant. Having tried other makes I wouldn’t buy anything else.

They were held quite regularly if I recollect. Some years ago (2012) when I was active on the other place :eusa-whistle: I organised a tour for the forum members and Ax did a sterling job for us, laying on refreshments in the photographic studio at lunchtime. They also had a very respectable sales table in the Skill Centre where there were some outstanding bargains to be had and there were also some product demos; Japanese saws springs to mind. Derek Jones, the then editor of F&C was also there and brought along his little Holtey plane which I tried to get Ian Styles to stock...stoney ground :lol: - Rob